What's with HD channels letterboxing in 4:3?

[teachsac]

IF an HD movie is shown in 4 x 3 pillar box , I won't watch it. It is supposed to be in 16 x 9 Full screen or at least 16 x9 letterbox. I can zoom it to fill if it is letterbox without too much degrading of the picture. But why even bother to show it in HD if it is in 4x3 at all? You know it wasn't shot that way. All movies are in 16 x 9 unless they were tv films.

Nope. TV movies are often shot at 16:9. Theatrical movies shot nowadays are shot at 1.85:1 (close, but with 1:1 pixel matching there is still a slight black bar at the top and bottom), 2.35:1, or 2.4:1 (2.39:1). These are then foramatted to fit within the 16:9 screen by either adding horizontal mattes to retain the original aspect ratio or cropping to fill the screen. Overscan of most tv's takes care of 1.85:1 to make it appear like it fills the screen.

S~

 

[teachsac]

Mike, what about movies like The Abyss, Ronin or Terminator 2: Judgment Day which were shot in Open Matte 4x3 and shown in the theaters with top and bottom cut off? I saw The Abyss clearly in HD on Encore but it was the Open Matte version.

My TV has a zoom and scan feature so I could approximate the theatrical cut too.

The only thing my TV doesn't have is the "shrink" feature to restore stretched images to their OAR.

I don't know of a consumer TV that does. Running Man was also shot in 4:3 open matte. It was cropped into 16:9 for the theater and eventually DVD/BD release. That is why half the time on Encore recently it was 4:3 or 16:9. You actually had to record it to get the version you wanted.

S~

 

[n0qcu]

Mike, what about movies like The Abyss, Ronin or Terminator 2: Judgment Day which were shot in Open Matte 4x3 and shown in the theaters with top and bottom cut off? I saw The Abyss clearly in HD on Encore but it was the Open Matte version.

My TV has a zoom and scan feature so I could approximate the theatrical cut too.

The only thing my TV doesn't have is the "shrink" feature to restore stretched images to their OAR.

Don't forget older movies that were shot in 4x3 because they all used to be before the 50's.

I have one TV that can unstretch but even it cannot undue the distorted stretcvh-o-vision style

 

[reddice]

Don't know what is up with Starz Family but it seems they are showing everything upconverted 4:3 pan and scan. It really peeves me off. I was going to watch Little Giants but it was 4:3 pan a and scan. Yesterday I put on Max Keeble which I know they showed in HD and it was upconverted 4:3 pan and scan version.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Nope. TV movies are often shot at 16:9. Theatrical movies shot nowadays are shot at 1.85:1 (close, but with 1:1 pixel matching there is still a slight black bar at the top and bottom), 2.35:1, or 2.4:1 (2.39:1). These are then foramatted to fit within the 16:9 screen by either adding horizontal mattes to retain the original aspect ratio or cropping to fill the screen. Overscan of most tv's takes care of 1.85:1 to make it appear like it fills the screen.

S~

Okay I don't know all about the ways to film movies. But I know when I went to the theater to see them I have NEVER seen them with black bars , pillar bars, etc. The screen is full and that is what I want when I watch them on my tv too. I really starting to hate seeing anything in 4x3 at all , even commercials. I will be glad when all the channels are in hd .

 

[Pepper]

Okay I don't know all about the ways to film movies. But I know when I went to the theater to see them I have NEVER seen them with black bars , pillar bars, etc. The screen is full and that is what I want when I watch them on my tv too. I really starting to hate seeing anything in 4x3 at all , even commercials. I will be glad when all the channels are in hd .

Of course the screen is full when you see it at the theater. Ever notice those curtains on the side that can adjust in or out to match the film being shown? Also you're in a completely dark room so how can you tell if the screen is full or not?

 

[MikeD-C05]

I'm sorry but I don't remember any curtains at the Tinsle Town Theater where we go to see movies. It is a fairly new movie theater and it is pretty cutting edge with its setup.

 

[Pepper]

I guess each theater is different, but the main point was that it is usually very dark in there, also possible that they are stretching, shrinking or cropping at the projector.

 

[Doppy]

Well last night the new episode America's Best Dance Crew on MTV was zoomed in to fill the whole screen for the first time and while it did look nice without the black bars all around it, it also was not in HD so the picture looked blurrier than when it was windowed.

 

[FitzAusTex]

Well last night the new episode America's Best Dance Crew on MTV was zoomed in to fill the whole screen for the first time and while it did look nice without the black bars all around it, it also was not in HD so the picture looked blurrier than when it was windowed.

Other than laziness, or trying to figure out what to do with a film that is airing on both their SD and HD channels, I think the reason that these stations 'window box' is that if they 'filled' the screen for us, many would complain that the picture was not as crisp since it had to be enlarged to fill the screen. Some folks would accuse the stations of trying to trick us with what is clearly non-hd content. I'd prefer they fill it for me, but if it is a film I really want to watch I'll watch a window boxed film, but I just wont watch a 4:3, unless it's really old and I know it was shot that way (i.e. Wizard of Oz). I won't even bother watching anything horizontally stretched, but then again, I won't watch any films with commercials, so these stations aren't on my film watch list anyway. Oh, and Indie and Retro seem pretty accurate so far in the EPG as far as noting if the film is HD or not.

 

[kstuart]

When the movie does not have an HD source, the channels will always take their SD feed and upconvert it for the HD channel.

They never notice that it is already letterboxed on the SD feed, and so is now window boxed on the HD feed.

 

[reddice]

My PS3 Slim can upconvert DVD's and although it is not HD it sure darn looks close. Almost as good as watching something on a HD channel.

 

[EdZackery]

I don't like it no matter how fancy the reason is to use 25% to 65% of my tv screen for anything other than the program I tuned in to see!!
At least when we raised our kids I didn't have to buy them a 28 speed 26 inch bicycle to wind up with a 14 inch one for them to learn on!!
This is why they keep saying to buy a 55 inch tv if you are 10 feet away cause you'll be watching a 21 inch most of the time after you don't like stretch any more.

 

[Kevinw]

SYFY is a big offender of 16:9 material being window boxwd

 

[KKlare]

When the movie does not have an HD source, the channels will always take their SD feed and upconvert it for the HD channel.

They never notice that it is already letterboxed on the SD feed, and so is now window boxed on the HD feed.

In many cases, there are HD transfers, maybe just not for their network. I think they sometimes show the HD version later but there is no way to only select those automatically as the HD selector is for the envelope not the content.

Some of my HD copies came from VOOM although often in 720p, which helped the size a little, and MPEG-2, which did not help.

I think I have see the Abyss in 16x9 a long time ago but now only in 4x3, not HD.
-Ken

 

[Charade]

My guess is that the PQ becomes much worse

IMHO, the black bars on the sides and top are part of the image and therefore the TV is displaying the image correctly. If the broadcaster would crop off the black bars, the image would fit better (perhaps not fully) to the actual screen size.

My Sony HDTV is 4:3 (1080i tube monitor but no ASTC tuner. Yes, it's old!) and I see this often. Makes no sense and it's frustrating because as you stated, the PQ suffers when you use either the TV zoom or the sat receiver zoom. All widescreen images on that set have black bars at the top and bottom (to varying degrees depending on the aspect ratio).

I don't particularly care for the zoom so I live with the smaller image.


Someday, probably after we're all dead, this will not be a problem any more.

 

[MikeD-C05]

No then there will 3-D with black bars.

 

[sam_gordon]

IMHO, the black bars on the sides and top are part of the image and therefore the TV is displaying the image correctly. If the broadcaster would crop off the black bars, the image would fit better (perhaps not fully) to the actual screen size.

The broadcaster can't "crop off" the black bars. The broadcaster ALWAYS sends a 16:9 image. If the content doesn't fill the 16:9 screen, you get black bars on the side. If the content DOES fill a 16:9 area, BUT is being viewed on a 4:3 screen, the only way to see the ENTIRE image to to put black bars top & bottom. Some viewers would like to see the entire image (live with the letterbox), some would rather fill the screen. If the broadcaster elects to fill the screen themselves, those viewers who want to see the entire image are out of luck. On the other hand, if they send the content letter boxed, the viewer can decide to either stay with the letterbox or fill the screen.

My Sony HDTV is 4:3 (1080i tube monitor but no ASTC tuner. Yes, it's old!) and I see this often. Makes no sense and it's frustrating because as you stated, the PQ suffers when you use either the TV zoom or the sat receiver zoom. All widescreen images on that set have black bars at the top and bottom (to varying degrees depending on the aspect ratio).

I don't particularly care for the zoom so I live with the smaller image.

A) If your screen is 4:3, it's not HD. HD by definition is 16:9. B) Since you don't like the zoom, then the broadcaster is sending the image the way you need it.

Someday, probably after we're all dead, this will not be a problem any more.

Once all 4:3 sets are gone (or at least 75%?), and ALL content is produced in 16:9, AND no "retro" shows are show, this won't be a problem. So yea, after we're all dead.