Not really sure what a Blu-Ray Disc Players is. Is it anything like the up in coming HD DVD Players?
What's Blu-Ray?
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Unfortunately big companies failed to agree on a single HD DVD standard. So, there are now two competing standards being released this year: Blu-Ray (Sony camp) and HD-DVD (Toshiba camp).
Blu-Ray standard seems to have more support from the Movie industry and is also expected to be included in the Sony PlayStation 3. On the other hand HD-DVD will be first to hit the streets in just two months from now...
Check our HDTV Equipment forum for more info.
Blu-Ray standard seems to have more support from the Movie industry and is also expected to be included in the Sony PlayStation 3. On the other hand HD-DVD will be first to hit the streets in just two months from now...
Check our HDTV Equipment forum for more info.
To expand on that, They split because they couldn't agree. HD-DVD is coming sooner, but Blu-Ray is supported by more companies. There's big names on both sides, it's not lop-sided at all really.
The selling point for common folk is that blu-ray will power the playstation 3, so they can get a player for cheap. The Blu-Ray Discs hold more space.
I stopped paying close attention to this well over a year ago and it doesn't seem like much has changed. I preferred HD-DVD, as did most reporters, but that was well over a year ago. I can't speak for anything now. People see it's powering PS3, and is bigger, and automatically prefer it. It's very much like how -R and +R fought it out. People only liked -R because it was cheaper. Nothing else mattered.
Should be interesting to see what happens with both formats later this year...
The selling point for common folk is that blu-ray will power the playstation 3, so they can get a player for cheap. The Blu-Ray Discs hold more space.
I stopped paying close attention to this well over a year ago and it doesn't seem like much has changed. I preferred HD-DVD, as did most reporters, but that was well over a year ago. I can't speak for anything now. People see it's powering PS3, and is bigger, and automatically prefer it. It's very much like how -R and +R fought it out. People only liked -R because it was cheaper. Nothing else mattered.
Should be interesting to see what happens with both formats later this year...
Hard to imagine someone that honestly knows what HD DVD is but never even heard of Blu-Ray.
Blu-ray Disc (BD) is the name of a next-generation optical disc format jointly developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), a group of the world's leading consumer electronics, personal computer and media manufacturers (including Apple, Dell, Hitachi, HP, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson). The format was developed to enable recording, rewriting and playback of high-definition video (HD), as well as storing large amounts of data. A single-layer Blu-ray Disc can hold 25GB, which can be used to record over 2 hours of HDTV or more than 13 hours of standard-definition TV. There are also dual-layer versions of the discs that can hold 50GB.
While current optical disc technologies such as DVD, DVD±R, DVD±RW, and DVD-RAM use a red laser to read and write data, the new format uses a blue-violet laser instead, hence the name Blu-ray. Despite the different type of lasers used, Blu-ray products can easily be made backwards compatible through the use of a BD/DVD/CD compatible optical pickup and allow playback of CDs and DVDs. The benefit of using a blue-violet laser (405nm) is that it has a shorter wavelength than a red laser (650nm), which makes it possible to focus the laser spot with even greater precision. This allows data to be packed more tightly and stored in less space, so it's possible to fit more data on the disc even though it's the same size as a CD/DVD.
Blu-ray Disc (BD) is the name of a next-generation optical disc format jointly developed by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA), a group of the world's leading consumer electronics, personal computer and media manufacturers (including Apple, Dell, Hitachi, HP, JVC, LG, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson). The format was developed to enable recording, rewriting and playback of high-definition video (HD), as well as storing large amounts of data. A single-layer Blu-ray Disc can hold 25GB, which can be used to record over 2 hours of HDTV or more than 13 hours of standard-definition TV. There are also dual-layer versions of the discs that can hold 50GB.
While current optical disc technologies such as DVD, DVD±R, DVD±RW, and DVD-RAM use a red laser to read and write data, the new format uses a blue-violet laser instead, hence the name Blu-ray. Despite the different type of lasers used, Blu-ray products can easily be made backwards compatible through the use of a BD/DVD/CD compatible optical pickup and allow playback of CDs and DVDs. The benefit of using a blue-violet laser (405nm) is that it has a shorter wavelength than a red laser (650nm), which makes it possible to focus the laser spot with even greater precision. This allows data to be packed more tightly and stored in less space, so it's possible to fit more data on the disc even though it's the same size as a CD/DVD.
Unfortunately one-third of the BDA's claims are vaporware, never materialized yet - in fact their draft specificaion was finalized only days ago.
Best example is Blu-Ray's 50 gig disc is still yet-to-be manufactured, also Blu-Ray, unlike HD-DVD, HAS NO MANDATORY COPY (the mandatory option to let you, the customer to copy your disc's content to your PC< hard drive, iPod or wherever you want in your house, LEGALLY) and they dropped the cartridge design last year despite the fact it has a very thin thus easy-to-scartch physical cover (0.1 mm versus DVD's and HD-DVD's 0.6mm).
Besides this disc manufacturing lines can be coverted to HD-DVD lines from a very loew amount of money, like a normal equipment upgrade cost or lower whereas an upgrade to be able to manufacture Blu-Ray costs MILLIONS - ergo expect really expensive BDA discs and units.
I think Blu-Ray is a wasted effort for nothing but to create a new income for Sony, it's more expensive, many things exist on pape4r only and has no chance to compete with HVD technology which already has 1TB (!!!) prototype showcased last year, so after all a Blu-Ray is a very expensive intermediate format with high big studio-friendly bias but anti-customer rights management system.
I oppose Blu-Ray completely, I think it is really ridiculous as Sony tries to force us to swallow this expensive sh*t instead of moving toward HVD discs ASAP and using HD-DVD as a cheap temporary format for these transitioning 2-3 years for cheap.
Best example is Blu-Ray's 50 gig disc is still yet-to-be manufactured, also Blu-Ray, unlike HD-DVD, HAS NO MANDATORY COPY (the mandatory option to let you, the customer to copy your disc's content to your PC< hard drive, iPod or wherever you want in your house, LEGALLY) and they dropped the cartridge design last year despite the fact it has a very thin thus easy-to-scartch physical cover (0.1 mm versus DVD's and HD-DVD's 0.6mm).
Besides this disc manufacturing lines can be coverted to HD-DVD lines from a very loew amount of money, like a normal equipment upgrade cost or lower whereas an upgrade to be able to manufacture Blu-Ray costs MILLIONS - ergo expect really expensive BDA discs and units.
I think Blu-Ray is a wasted effort for nothing but to create a new income for Sony, it's more expensive, many things exist on pape4r only and has no chance to compete with HVD technology which already has 1TB (!!!) prototype showcased last year, so after all a Blu-Ray is a very expensive intermediate format with high big studio-friendly bias but anti-customer rights management system.
I oppose Blu-Ray completely, I think it is really ridiculous as Sony tries to force us to swallow this expensive sh*t instead of moving toward HVD discs ASAP and using HD-DVD as a cheap temporary format for these transitioning 2-3 years for cheap.
I think it's important to remember two things here: HD DVD used to be known as "HD Red" because it used the red diode to accomplish its HD footwork. Their cheif selling point to studios and consumers at that time was that the red diode allowed much less change in existing techincal hardware needed to manufacture their HD dics., thus allowing them to spend less on upgrades and pass the savings along to consumers-- and (presumably) come out with their product first. Somewhere along the line they changed from using the red to using the blue diode that BluRay backed all along. I'm not sure what this means, but I'm pretty sure it means something! The fact that the (old red) HD DVD camp's initial showcase of their new DVD's at CES was something of a disaster doesn't help their case. It could well have been a simple technical glitch--but it hardly advanced their image.
The other thing I wanted to mention that we should all bear in mind is that most people now agree the Beta format was superior to the VHS format--but it was the PUBLIC not the companies that chose the latter and made it the (inferior) standard.
Down through the years one constant image keeps flapping back at me out of the night: I was standing in Best Buy some time back watching a salesman pitch hif-def to a middle aged woman. He was displaying an analog picture right beside a hi-def picture. The woman he was trying to impress shrugged and turned to him indifferently. "I don't see the difference," she said.
Whether her remark was qualitative or quanitative is immaterial: I can't get it out of my mind.
The other thing I wanted to mention that we should all bear in mind is that most people now agree the Beta format was superior to the VHS format--but it was the PUBLIC not the companies that chose the latter and made it the (inferior) standard.
Down through the years one constant image keeps flapping back at me out of the night: I was standing in Best Buy some time back watching a salesman pitch hif-def to a middle aged woman. He was displaying an analog picture right beside a hi-def picture. The woman he was trying to impress shrugged and turned to him indifferently. "I don't see the difference," she said.
Whether her remark was qualitative or quanitative is immaterial: I can't get it out of my mind.
You may well hate it, and with some justification. And technologically the comparison may be erroneous. But in terms of a situation that is only further befuddling an already confused public, I think think the analogy a valid one.
jonesbruce91361 said:
Actually it was the fact Sony chose NOT to licence or allow their BETAMax to be made by others was the deciding factor that killed it.
Blu Ray is selling now in Japan. Initial and ultimate capacities are higher for Blu Ray (BD) than HD-DVD. Yes, copy protection is more onerous on BD. But you will be able to copy some things- and it will make a great computer backup system. Even HD-DVD disks will provide the option to studios to block copying.
The BD data is closer to the surface, yes- but a new harder surface has been developed. Whether it is in fact easier to be damaged is open to question. I suspect it will be easier to damage, but the issue has at least been addressed to some degree.
The HD-DVD camp has touted the "easier and cheaper" method to convert existing DVD manufacturing lines. Then someone pointed out it was also "easier and cheaper" for the pirates to convert and continue counterfeiting without a pause. So the "advantage" is not such an advantage after all. And other changes mean the cost difference may not be much.
Although technically I prefer the higher capacity of Blu Ray, I must agree it is less consumer friendly. I am suspicious of anything Sony now- I doubt I'll ever forget their "root kit" scheme. I hope the lawsuits damage the company big time, to serve as an example to others.
If you want to talk vaporware, Holographic Versatile Disc™ certainly fits the bill. Anyone remember FMD?
The BD data is closer to the surface, yes- but a new harder surface has been developed. Whether it is in fact easier to be damaged is open to question. I suspect it will be easier to damage, but the issue has at least been addressed to some degree.
The HD-DVD camp has touted the "easier and cheaper" method to convert existing DVD manufacturing lines. Then someone pointed out it was also "easier and cheaper" for the pirates to convert and continue counterfeiting without a pause. So the "advantage" is not such an advantage after all. And other changes mean the cost difference may not be much.
Although technically I prefer the higher capacity of Blu Ray, I must agree it is less consumer friendly. I am suspicious of anything Sony now- I doubt I'll ever forget their "root kit" scheme. I hope the lawsuits damage the company big time, to serve as an example to others.
If you want to talk vaporware, Holographic Versatile Disc™ certainly fits the bill. Anyone remember FMD?
navychop said:
Ouch, THAT Blu-Ray is nowhere the same Blu-Ray we're talking about here - specs have been finalized days ago yet those $5000-priced desk-sized monsters are selling for 2 years.
FYI: there weren't neither VC-1 nor H.264/AVC back then...
Wrong.
Initial capacity is lower than HD-DVD. That's my point: almost half of their promises are vap[orware, yet to be materialized.
Another empty claim - WTH are you talking about? There's nothing like this in BDA specs.
False again. Did you actually read the specs?
I highly doubt it otherwise you should have noticed that managed copy is a mandatory part.
You should really look up the facts before you copy all the empty, never-seen things here from some BDE fansite - this is another claim which nobody have seen yet. It's all based on a single promise from TDK when it said it will develop something, more durable cover - unfortunately it's pretty much like the 50 gig discs, still in under development status.
In my world when we're talking about 0.1 mm versus 0.6 mm cover, well I think it isn't that hard to guess which one woul make you buy more discs...
Exactly. That's a fact - unlike any of your claims about BDE above.
WTH this has to do anything with us, customers?
Ahhh, I see: you want to make US, customers to pay for YOUR INABILITY to develop a trusted distribution channel?
This is preposterous, outrageously disgusting stance.
This is the most arrogant and blatant answer I can imagine from those fully impotent old @sses over at MPAA.
Excuse me?
$10K vs $1M? How isn't that much?
Or is it just another empty sentence to downplay another negative sc ore of BDE...?
Again: it is NOT higher anywhere else than on paper.
Until it shows up on the shelves, Blu-Ray is the same or lower.
It's absolutely anti-customer, it's completely against all the Fair-use rights.
I hope too. Unfortunately our legislative system is completely ridden by corruption, so after DMCA I expect some more abusive legislation WRT consumer rights.
Well, I call this BS. Yes, BS.
HVD has been showcased - unlike Blu-Ray's 50 gig disc, unlike Blu-Ray's durable disc, unlike Blu-Ray's managed copy.
There are plenty of other technologies which never made it to the shelves.
It's called competition - that's why I'm against an enforced Blu-Ray when it clearly favors the studios' right against our rights, when it wants to make you pay for their stupid retarded idiocies and impotent distribution system, outdated business modell.
MPAA and the big studios SHOULD DIE OUT. Period./
They barely produce any value anymore, only sh!tty, crappy, idiotic stories yet they blame everybody else for the sharply declining box office incomes.
Same story like the retarded RIAA and its clowns.
Both industry proved that they cannot adopt the new market realities, they couldn't see that very basic thing which made iTMS to a successful business modell.
Thanks God, it's just a matter of time before both giant, due to their bloodsucking distribution modell, will die and all these leechers will go down on the toilet of the history.
There's no need for those thousands of useless clueless nobody at every single label company - look at those online indie stores! They are doing better than ever before!!!
Movie industry is destined for the same, they are just trying to slown it down but it's impossible - they have to adopt (which means lay off all the lazy@ss so-called producers and other loser @sses, turning into a small operation) or they will die.
It's that simple.
Feel better?
Removing all the emotion, I actually agree with your opinion and hopes for the MPAA, RIAA, etc.
Maybe later I'll look up & post a few more references. But right off- capacity. Per this link:
There are two kinds of single-sided HD DVD discs for content playback: the 15GB single-layer disc, and the dual-layer disc with double the capacity, a full 30GB.
And per this link:
How much data can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A single-layer disc can fit 23.3GB, 25GB or 27GB.
A dual-layer disc can fit 46.6GB, 50GB or 54GB.
I suppose we'll have to see when one or two layer discs of each type are released. But a single layer HD DVD clearly holds less than a single layer BD.
And specs are "finalized" over and over. No big deal there- they tweaked.
Removing all the emotion, I actually agree with your opinion and hopes for the MPAA, RIAA, etc.
Maybe later I'll look up & post a few more references. But right off- capacity. Per this link:
There are two kinds of single-sided HD DVD discs for content playback: the 15GB single-layer disc, and the dual-layer disc with double the capacity, a full 30GB.
And per this link:
How much data can you fit on a Blu-ray disc?
A single-layer disc can fit 23.3GB, 25GB or 27GB.
A dual-layer disc can fit 46.6GB, 50GB or 54GB.
I suppose we'll have to see when one or two layer discs of each type are released. But a single layer HD DVD clearly holds less than a single layer BD.
And specs are "finalized" over and over. No big deal there- they tweaked.
For another summary on BD & HD DVDs, see this engadget link. It discusses capacities, security, etc. It also gives a little background/history of how we got here. It posts the highest tested and theoretical capacities, and comments that the close to the surface decision on BD was to allow for more layers- more capacity. The TDK coating DURABIS was announced at CES 2005 and mass production samples started shipping in December 2005, per this link.
The cost difference I was referring to is to the consumer- Titles released in BD may not cost much more than HD-DVD titles, maybe about the same over time, if both formats survive. Sure, I'd like cheaper, but I like better (higher capacity) also. As these become used for computer backup, cost per gigabyte counts. And, oh, BTW- see this Pioneer press release regarding using BD as a computer backup system- complete with a picture of the computer drive. It's dated 12/05 and they hope to ship by the end of the month. So maybe they'll be late- even by a quarter or two- it's coming, and it is eagerly anticipated in this role. This is where the higher capacity BD might gain more traction on the HD DVD. Your insisting it ain't so (higher capacity) doesn't change the facts. Oh, and see this link for more on BD use for data backup (and the durability of the coating- yes, "just claims") and this link for info on Sonic software support for BD in their Sonic, Roxio and AuthorScript programs- for both data and video. And there's more out there.
Since neither format is selling in any significant numbers in the U.S., your "vaporware" claims can apply equally to HD-DVD. Before the year is out, it will be clear what the capacities and features of each really are.
Let's not get too wedded to one or the other. We will deal with whichever one wins- and hopefully, there will be just one winner. Maybe the Chinese plans will work out and triumph over both. Or they'll eat each other alive and maybe the HVD will actually make it to market- and be more successful than the mini-disk. Maybe the decision will be made by XBox vs. PS3.
The cost difference I was referring to is to the consumer- Titles released in BD may not cost much more than HD-DVD titles, maybe about the same over time, if both formats survive. Sure, I'd like cheaper, but I like better (higher capacity) also. As these become used for computer backup, cost per gigabyte counts. And, oh, BTW- see this Pioneer press release regarding using BD as a computer backup system- complete with a picture of the computer drive. It's dated 12/05 and they hope to ship by the end of the month. So maybe they'll be late- even by a quarter or two- it's coming, and it is eagerly anticipated in this role. This is where the higher capacity BD might gain more traction on the HD DVD. Your insisting it ain't so (higher capacity) doesn't change the facts. Oh, and see this link for more on BD use for data backup (and the durability of the coating- yes, "just claims") and this link for info on Sonic software support for BD in their Sonic, Roxio and AuthorScript programs- for both data and video. And there's more out there.
Since neither format is selling in any significant numbers in the U.S., your "vaporware" claims can apply equally to HD-DVD. Before the year is out, it will be clear what the capacities and features of each really are.
Let's not get too wedded to one or the other. We will deal with whichever one wins- and hopefully, there will be just one winner. Maybe the Chinese plans will work out and triumph over both. Or they'll eat each other alive and maybe the HVD will actually make it to market- and be more successful than the mini-disk. Maybe the decision will be made by XBox vs. PS3.
navychop said:
When you have actually grasped my points, please come back and post something meaningful.*
Believe me, it'd be helpful if you'd actually know something about the story if you decided to reply...
*: meaningful = not some silly, epmty PR quote from the mfr's website
PS: ok, I see now, you did try below (though still PR stuff only
)...
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navychop said:
Too bad it's nothing but another recap of empty official announcements, of which Blu-Ray was always great, unlike delivering something.
And after a year of struggle still a big frikkin silence ever since - ergo it's not even sampling.
Wow, color me surprised...
Which claim, like any others, you have pulled out of thin air, against the very basics of any business.
C;mon, how can you make out the difference between $10K per lines and $1M per lines in upgrade costs?Well, then you shouldn't like BDE because 50 gig BD-R is still missing, now for a year, at least: the latest crap from Sony is late summer of 2006...
Uh, really? So then why would you use the most expensive medium?
25GB (3x8.5GB) DL-DVD+R: 3x$2=$6
15GB HD-DVD-R: expected ~$30
30GB DL-HD-DVD-R: est. ~$50
25GB BD-RE: expected ~$50
but we can go on:
200/400GB LTO-2 $40-50 (drive is cheapoer than Blu-Ray recorder will cost)
400/800GB LTO-3 $60-70 (drive costs roughly the same as a Blu-Ray recorders will)
So after all these numbers - we're using a 100-tape robotic library here with 2 LTO-2 drives, because they are cheap - I'm really curious what are you trying to say about cost per gigabyte, pal...
FYI: Had you know anything about it, you would have argued with speed or anything else but cost.
Pal, this thing with its eyepopping, extremely high pricetag is completely out of question for sane consumers.
For corporations like we are isn't a viable option either, see above my prices.
The only case I can imagine we'd use it if we would need something FAST temporary mobile medium but since hard drives are small and cheap, I'd rather buy two smaller hdd (even a HD-DVD) because Blu-Ray is waaay more expensive.
No, I'm saying BDE is still has to make 50 gig BDR discs. Now Sony says late summer 2006... LOL.
Which software houses, as you may never heard about it, announced the same crap about HD-DVD last summer. 6+ months before Blu-Ray.
So did I win?
Face it: these are useless points.
Not really. HD-DVD already showcased they can mass-produce their discs for the fraction of what BDE's yet-to-be-mfr'ed-massively discs will cost, their player will hit the market first and they had their 30GB in the specs and tested already last year, leading in actual available capacity.
Umm I hate to burst your bubble but Mainland China already sided with HD-DVD...
WORD! :up NOW you're talking!
That's my secret hope too.
And Toshiba, the main HD-DVD developer, last year bought a stake in Optware, the developer of HVD... I doubt it. PS3 is really late and has serious problems, as we have seen during CES: no testing for public, only some 1080p playback, from software by Cell but MPEG2 only.
It doesn't really picture a nice situation for PS3...
Perhaps I should never discuss anything with a "true believer." It's all PR stuff, including reviews, until units are in consumer's hands and have been run thru everyday use. By year's end, we'll know more about costs and if hitting the market first helps HD-DVD out. Each side exaggerates flaws in the other. Each pulls the other's comments out and tries to use them against them. It really doesn't matter. Over a few months of real use, any differences will come to light. With any luck, one or the other will triumph in the first year or two. No need to get religious about it. Don't let your hopes be your blinders. We will deal with whichever one wins, and be happy to have it.
