What The Dish Is Actually Seeing?

[kasitrol@yahoo.com]

Is there a good way to see what the dish actually sees?

I am having trouble getting a good signal from 110 and 119 with a dish 500 and Quad Pro LNB but there does not seem to be any obstruction in the line of sight. I have tried a laser (magnetic strip) attached to the underside of the yoke conduit for RG 6 cable from LNB but that is poor at best.

I have also tried a protractor arrangement and a round tube attached to look through like a crude scope sitting on top of the dish pole without the dish on the pole and and trying to look at the angle 0f 49 degrees(my elevation setting Skew and Azimuth OK and Pole is Level) for but that does not seem to work.

Any good suggestions?
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[SmityWhity]

What do you mean by...

I am having trouble getting a good signal from 110 and 119 with a dish 500 and Quad Pro LNB but there does not seem to be any obstruction in the line of sight.

I would have to say it is either picking up signals or it isn't. If the signals are weak, then you can peak for that particular satellite location(s). Also, it has been posted that the sat signal is actually higher than the elevation (abt 20 degrees?) which is then reflected at the correct angle to the LNBF; so if you are trying to get a signal by going below some tree branches, building overhang, etc..., you may have problems with that.

Assuming your dish pan and/or LNBF arm are not damaged/bent, then do/ensure the following:

(1) Make sure mast is plumb in ALL directions. (Including with weight of dish.)
(2) Ensure the SKEW is set for your Zip Code.
(3) Then peak the azimuth and elevation, and then maybe peak them again.

If you still have low signals, then maybe you have a bad LNBF, poor cables, or your receiver is just calibrated differently. Hopefully you are receiving all channels without dropouts except for in heavy rain.

EDIT: I forgot the most important part.
When peaking... If you move the azimuth (or elevation) about 1/8", you have changed the location about a 1000 miles out in space. So when peaking, you need to try and barely move the dish; try for about 1/16" or even 1/32". The sat receivers may take 8 - 10 seconds to register the change in signal, so be patient.

 

[highdefjeff]

Satellite location

On a Dish 500, looking from the back of the dish toward the satellites, 110 is just to the left of center and 119 is just off the right side of the dish, at your elevations.

I was also told the myth about the satellites being actually higher and then they bounce off the reflector into the LNB. (I was actually told this while in training for DirecTV!) This is not true. They are where they are said to be, give or take. (Settings that are given by the receivers are close, anyway.)

What kind of signal problems are you having, specifically?
What is your signal for 119 and 110 when you select transponder 11?

Happy HD hunting!
Highdef Jeff

 

[kasitrol@yahoo.com]

I have a low signal about 60-65 0n 119 Transponder 11 and when I tune in 110, I loose 119. I did have the dish blow over recently and it slightly bent the back of the rim but it did not appear to bent the dish any other place. I straightened the edge (the rim that surrounds the dish). I have checked the cables and changed locations of the positions on the quad cable F connectors but that does not seem to matter. I also tried a Twin Pro Lnb with the same results.

There are no trees in the direct line of sight so I am at a loss to know what could be causing the problem.

In a previous location in a different town about 8 miles away I got much better reception through a bunch of trees than I do now.

I used a sat. external meter to peak the signal. I did peak moving the dish 1/4 to 1/8 inch at a time but I found the dish mounting is so looseie goosie that I had to go higher in elevation then let the dish settle to get a better signal.

I was just curious as to how one aim the dish and be able to tell what line of sight from the center of the dish would show. I would think that would help if you were surrounded by trees and wanted to find a signal hole.

 

[highdefjeff]

Probably need a new dish, but,

Visually, what I stated earlier is as if you are looking through the polar plate, not the center of the dish. Sometimes it's very hard to do.
A clinometer is the best way to "see" them in the sky, but at $150, it's maybe not an option.

Your meter should be the best way to tell about signal. (Did you keep your signal meter on as you tightened your dish?) If you can't get it with elevation and azimuth, then maybe a small adjustment of skew is in order.

When skew is wrong you get the results you describe. Either the dish is bent or the mast is not plumb, but your skew is off.

Bottom line is, trying to fix a bent/blown down dish could be an exercise in futility.

I suggest starting with a plumb mast and a new dish.

Hope this helps.
Highdef Jeff

 

[navychop]

Posted more for other readers, than the OP.

To get a good idea of obstructions and to properly, easily aim a dish, especially portable ones, look at this.

 

[highdefjeff]

Interesting...

gadget. Gadgets are good when they work. Looks difficult.
How hard is it to use the second time, once it is assembled.
Can you easily describe what happens when you arrive at your campsite?
This website is about solutions
Home
If it's truly simple and easy, people need to know!
Thanks!
Hidef Jeff

 

[satman223]

I feel as though I should beg to differ with you. The satellites in their position in the sky do bounce off the reflector and into the LNB. In this case, they may not necessarily be in the location you think they are in.

 

[digiblur]

Hidef Jeff. Research the words offset lnb. Then research prime focus dishes. Now go out to your install truck and tell me what kind of dish does direct use.

 

[SmityWhity]

I was also told the myth about the satellites being actually higher and then they bounce off the reflector into the LNB. (I was actually told this while in training for DirecTV!) This is not true. They are where they are said to be, give or take. (Settings that are given by the receivers are close, anyway.)

As I said, set the SKEW correctly. Within reason, objects in front of the dish are less likely to affect the signal than items above and forward of the dish. You can grow a bush in front of the dish, but how high depends on how close the dish is and your required elevation.

Problem 1: I did have the dish blow over recently and it slightly bent the back of the rim but it did not appear to bent the dish any other place. I straightened the edge (the rim that surrounds the dish).
Problem 2 & 3: I did peak moving the dish 1/4 to 1/8 inch at a time but I found the dish mounting is so looseie goosie that I had to go higher in elevation then let the dish settle to get a better signal.

1. If the part of the rim/lip facing the back of the dish is dented in, it shouldn't matter, as long as it doesn't affect the shape of the rest of the dish, or make it out of round. If any of the main body of the dish pan is dented, you will probably not get it working correctly. Someone was working out of their motorhome in VA about 6-8 weeks ago and had the same problem, i.e., the dish blew over and he straighten it; but he could never get 119 and 110. He bought a new dish and was up and running in a few minutes.

2. Moving the dish between 1/8" and 1/4 inch is like going from "110 to 119 and from 110 to 129" on the same LNBF, instead of peaking the left side of 110 with the right side of 110. Try moving it less than the thickness of a hair from a red headed step child.

3. If you need to go higher, tighten, and then let it fall into the correct elevation.... You have a dish falling apart, or your mast is not very sturdy, or both.
I recommend you:
- Tighten/strengthen your mast/mast mount.
- Tighten the LNBF on the LNBF arm so that it doesn't move.
- Check the Skew Plate and make sure it is not off centered, set the Skew to the receiver setting, then tighten the 2 bolts to keep it from moving. Do not over tighten or you will dent/warp the plate and have the wrong Skew.
- Set your elevation and slightly snug the 2 nuts.
- Tighten down, but less than snug, the 2 nuts for the Azimuth. This should allow you to swing the dish on the mast without any bind, but not affecting the elevation.

If you have clear views, no overhead hangings, then there is really no need to get out the geometry books to pin point a hole in the foilage without the right equipment - IMHO.

 

[BobaBird]

I was also told the myth about the satellites being actually higher and then they bounce off the reflector into the LNB. (I was actually told this while in training for DirecTV!) This is not true.

Please explain how the signal really gets to the LNB.

I guess something had to be my 1000th post @party

 

[SmityWhity]

I thought you had more than that!

 

[highdefjeff]

I was correct...

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the myth.

The myth isn't about whether a reflector dish is used, the myth is, that because of that, satellites are actually higher in the sky than the elevation settings.

I'm not saying that we don't use a reflector dish-with offset LNB (what would the reflector be for???), what I'm saying is that the satellites are NOT higher in the sky because of it.

The elevation scale, that is built into the dish design, takes this into account. So when you point the dish at say, 40 degrees elevation, the dish, using its "reflector", is precisely positioned to receive a signal at 40 degrees elevation. Because, that's where the satellite is.

So could it be a mistake to think like SmityWity when you're considering line-of-sight? You can see how it affects his line-of-sight judgment. But, it's not his fault. I was told this in a DirecTV training class! I found it interesting and set out to find that "magic number", the "abt 20 degree add". I wanted to be sure to get those birds, and supply Better TV for ALL!!! Here's what I found:

The satellites ARE at the elevations stated. NOT plus some unknown number of degrees. So when you take your clinometer out to check for line of sight (you do use a clinometer, don't you? Trust your clinometer. Learn where your birds are and trust your clinometer!), what elevation do you check? !sadroll
If you're smart, you'll check where they say they are.

If you research satellites, azimuth and elevation, clarke belt, skew, and geosynchronous orbit, you can find your satellites. I did because no one, I knew, could tell me the answers. You can find most of it here:

Solid Signal

or here

HD Glossary

Happy HD hunting!
Highdef Jeff

 

[SmityWhity]

I'm afraid you've misunderstood the myth.

The myth isn't about whether a reflector dish is used, the myth is, that because of that, satellites are actually higher in the sky than the elevation settings.

So could it be a mistake to think like SmityWity when you're considering line-of-sight? You can see how it affects his line-of-sight judgment.

I agree that the satellites are where they are.

However, it appears that you misunderstood me.

In my opinion, the OP wanted to know how he can pinpoint a bird 22K+ miles out in space by looking at the dish, even though he had clear views. Not believing he really needed to know that to resolve his problem, I just tired to give him a little more info to get his visualization in perspective.

We all got our own ways of doing things. And with that said, I do not use sat meters, clinometers, or even compasses. I set the Skew, set the Elevation, look at the sun (or stars), swing the dish to the correct Azimuth (+/- 5 degrees), then peak using the sat receiver. 10 mintues later, enjoying a cold one.

 

[BobaBird]

Ah, so you meant to say the elevation markings take into account the 22.5° offset so that it shouldn't be added when setting the elevation. It is true though that the dish appears to be pointing below the satellite, IOW the satellite is higher than where the dish is pointing (though not higher than the markings).

 

[SmityWhity]

It is true though that the dish appears to be pointing below the satellite

Except when you turn it upside down as in a low profile mounting position.

Take care.

 

[highdefjeff]

I can go there...

Ah, so you meant to say the elevation markings take into account the 22.5° offset so that it shouldn't be added when setting the elevation. It is true though that the dish appears to be pointing below the satellite, IOW the satellite is higher than where the dish is pointing (though not higher than the markings).

I smell what you're steppin' in, BobaBird!

I always tell people that the satellites are not right in front of the satellite dish, but higher. But, I usually use that description on site with arm movements and finger pointing.

I'm just trying to be clear. I don't want installers looking for a satellite 22.5 degrees too high and thinking line of sight is good!

By the way, happy 1000th! :clap

 

[navychop]

gadget. Gadgets are good when they work. Looks difficult.
How hard is it to use the second time, once it is assembled.
Can you easily describe what happens when you arrive at your campsite?
This website is about solutions
Home
If it's truly simple and easy, people need to know!
Thanks!
Hidef Jeff

I dial in the azimuth and elevation. Skew is ignored. I then watch to keep it level, using the two bubble levels built in. Then just look down thru the eyepiece. You hold the device about where you expect the dish to be. It will show the LOS so you can pick a spot with no trees, etc, in the way. Not hard to get the hang of it. I find it a lot easier than a protractor and plumb line.

There's an option to mount it on your dish. I've never done that, it would probably make it easier. But my main use was when we went home shopping. I wasn't going to buy a home without a good LOS to 110, 119 and 61.5.

 

[SmityWhity]

I'm glad we all agree.

But my main use was when we went home shopping. I wasn't going to buy a home without a good LOS to 110, 119 and 61.5.

The only way to shop.

 

[Jim5506]

DBS dishes have the lnb offset. If you look at a 6ft C band dish, the lnb is located in the center focus of the dish.

To simulate a DBS dish you would take that 6 ft dish and cut a small elliptical or round segment from the top part of the dish. Using about 10-15% of a whole dish is possible with DBS because the lnb is much more sensitive and the signal from the satellite is stronger, too.

In order for the lnb to not shade the dish it is really below the bottom of the dish.

To see the approximate location of the satellite stand behind and below the dish and look up from the bottom edge to the lnb. That's where the satellite is located.