Voom's PQ vs. HDNet Movies

[Conjuror]

I sat down (again) to compare PQ on Voom exclusive channels against HDNet Movies on Dish. On a scale 1-10 where 10 is the best, I gave pure 10 to "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid", a 1973 movie on HDNet. I compared all channels today between 5-5:30 pm. No equipments used, just my eyes.
First goes channel, movie, year, and then my rating.

HDNet Movies, "Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid", 1973 10

100, HDNews, 2004 9
101, "Rich Kids", 1979 7
102, "The Last Metro", 1980 4
103, B&W, 1962 1
104, B&W, ???? 1
105, "Behind Enemy Lines", 1996 8
106, Mississippi Burning, 1988 7
107, B&W, 1943 1
108, "Crusoe", 1988 6
109, B&W, 1943 1
110, Les Girls, 1957 5
121, "The Incredeble two-headed transplant", 1971 6
122, Eye Over Italy, 2004 7
123, WorldSport, 2003 7
124, Rampage Utah, ???? 7
125, Farms Aids Concert, ???? 8

I didn't think I should compare other Voom's channels because there is no much motion there and because of that you can't really tell how good their PQ is.
Also, I was not rating content, just the PQ. Therefore, all Black & White channels got 1 because you don't really go in the HD era with B&W movies.
Anyway, even if you ignore B&W movies, Voom's PQ is not, on the average, even close to the one on HDNet Movies. Can you just imagine how big the difference would be if I compared Voom with HDNet?
Forum admin: please don't move this topic to the Voom programming forum. It does not belong there because this is about the PQ problem on Voom.
And, yeah, even old movies can get pure 10 with a low compression rate which Voom apparently doesn't have. Would be nice if someone else would try to do the same just to see where we are.

 

[DarrellP]

Can you just imagine how big the difference would be if I compared Voom with HDNet?

No comparison, when I switch from Voom to HDNET, it's like I took a sheet of saran wrap off my pj lens. Folks, it's that good and Voom is screwing us out of a fabulous picture. Hopefully WM9 will cure this. To me, the only channel that comes close to HDNET Movies is the MonstersHD channel, it has the most consistent quality of any movie channel, especially when they show the lead-in graphics prior to a movie, that has the WOW factor.

 

[barth2k]

Well, I'm sure people will just say it's a very subjective assessment. Problem is, it's not like there's a meter you can use to measure "PQ". But it would help if you explain what why you think one looks better than another.

For example, why would you give something a 1 just b/c it's B&W? If it looks good, it looks good. B&W or color has nothing to do with PQ.

Btw, what provider are you watching hdnet movies on?

 

[Conjuror]

Well, I'm sure people will just say it's a very subjective assessment. Problem is, it's not like there's a meter you can use to measure "PQ". But it would help if you explain what why you think one looks better than another.

You are correst, it is very subjective but still the difference exists.

For example, why would you give something a 1 just b/c it's B&W? If it looks good, it looks good. B&W or color has nothing to do with PQ.

You are correct here too. I didn't include them because those 4 particular movies on Voom looked really bad and even 1 may be too good.

The other provider is Dish.

 

[DarrellP]

Well, I'm sure people will just say it's a very subjective assessment. Problem is, it's not like there's a meter you can use to measure "PQ". But it would help if you explain what why you think one looks better than another.

For example, why would you give something a 1 just b/c it's B&W? If it looks good, it looks good. B&W or color has nothing to do with PQ.

Btw, what provider are you watching hdnet movies on?

OK, tune in the worst SD channel you can find on Voom. Is the PQ "objective" or does it totally stink? Now compare it to the best HD you can find on Voom. What is there to compare?

Same with HDNET and Voom, Voom is very soft and full of noise, HDNET is not, even on THE SAME FRICKIN MOVIES, so what's objective about that? It's the same exact movie on 2 different services, 1 rocks, 1 doesn't. Get HDNET and you'll understand where we are coming from.

I've seen some great B&W on Voom that I'd have ranked an 8 or 9.

I watch HDNET on DISH.

 

[gutter]

I don't disagree with anything that has been said. I agree very much, but remember, when dealing with PQ of old movies so much as to do with the source material and how they did the transfer. The newer movies are done right from the color negative. From the older, it looks like a lot of them from old 35mm positive prints....projection prints. don't know for sure.

 

[FrankJo]

uh, what does black and white have to do with the "HD era"? Some of the best cinematography is shot in b/w. If it's film, it's BETTER than HD.

For the best in PQ, go to a theatre and watch a good print of any film on a good screen. That is the true meaning of high definition.

 

[barth2k]

Same with HDNET and Voom, Voom is very soft and full of noise, HDNET is not, even on THE SAME FRICKIN MOVIES, so what's objective about that? It's the same exact movie on 2 different services, 1 rocks, 1 doesn't. Get HDNET and you'll understand where we are coming from.

I've seen some great B&W on Voom that I'd have ranked an 8 or 9.

I watch HDNET on DISH.

Unfortunately, if I get hdnet it'll be on d* since I already have equipment. I don't want to have to make a commitment with e*. d* I hear compresses their hd more than e* (which may not do any compression on their hd channels).

Hey I believe you. I'm just playing trial lawyer here to convince others.

 

[Conjuror]

uh, what does black and white have to do with the "HD era"? Some of the best cinematography is shot in b/w. If it's film, it's BETTER than HD.

For the best in PQ, go to a theatre and watch a good print of any film on a good screen. That is the true meaning of high definition.

As I said, I was not rating content but pq. HDNet gives me more theater-like experience than Voom.

 

[Conjuror]

Unfortunately, if I get hdnet it'll be on d* since I already have equipment. I don't want to have to make a commitment with e*. d* I hear compresses their hd more than e* (which may not do any compression on their hd channels).

Hey I believe you. I'm just playing trial lawyer here to convince others.

I'm not sure but I don't think it really matters whether you get it from Dish or DirecTV. They say that HDNet requires certain bit rate from its broadcasters. In other words, HDNet quality is guarantied. Maybe that's why we have no HDNet on Voom? Maybe Cuban's bandwidth requirements are higher than Voom can handle at this time? Or maybe Voom simply doesn't want them because it may expose Voom's high compression to a viewer who could then easily see big difference between the two?

 

[Sean Mota]

I'm not sure but I don't think it really matters whether you get it from Dish or DirecTV. They say that HDNet requires certain bit rate from its broadcasters. In other words, HDNet quality is guarantied. Maybe that's why we have no HDNet on Voom? Maybe Cuban's bandwidth requirements are higher than Voom can handle at this time? Or maybe Voom simply doesn't want them because it may expose Voom's high compression to a viewer who could then easily see big difference between the two?

Or maybe Cuban just likes to have more $$$ per sub. I really love and laugh at this speculation.

 

[Conjuror]

Or maybe Cuban just likes to have more $$$ per sub. I really love and laugh at this speculation.

How many of us would refuse to pay extra $2 for HDNet? I would pay $5 . Well, many of us pay 10 to Dish just to have HDNet.
I'm glad I made you laugh, though.

 

[Sean Mota]

How many of us would refuse to pay extra $2 for HDNet? I would pay $5 . Well, many of us pay 10 to Dish just to have HDNet.
I'm glad I made you laugh, though.

You missed the point. Cuban couldn't careless about VoOM subs. He really wants Cablevision subs. That's where the money is. VOOM subs are pennies not worth the while to him.

 

[Seawaves]

You missed the point. Cuban couldn't careless about VoOM subs. He really wants Cablevision subs. That's where the money is. VOOM subs are pennies not worth the while to him.

So are you saying that HDnet is coming to Cablevision?

 

[Sean Mota]

I have been reluctant to post on this thread because maybe Conjuror would feel that I am picking on him (that was stated in another thread) but I cannot bypasses it anymore.

First from the beginning of the thread the assumption made is that all "HD transfers are made equal" One movie from HDnet Movies was compared to 10 different HD movies playing on HD Cinema. Note that the only common thing to the comparison is that they are designated "HD".

The other comparison made was a film transfer (from HDnet movies) to HDnews, WorldSports, Equator-HD, Rave-HD, & Rush-HD. Again, don't know where this comes from but the last time I checked none of these programs are carried by HDnet Movies.

Conjuror, if you want to this right compare HD Film transfers that have been playing on both HDnet Movies and HD Cinema. I will give you an example. Compare "The Woman in Red". The Woman in Red recently played on HD Cinema and has been playing on HDnet Movies. It will be played again on HDnet Movies on Saturday morning. Now if you saw it on HD Cinema compare it to the one that was playing on HD Cinema. Notice that when "the woman in red" played on both HDnet movies and HD Cinema, they played at the same Aspect Ratio.

Don't compare apple to oranges. Compare things that equal and the same on both. If that was true then I will compare Discover HD Theater to Starz or HBO and say that at any given moment the PQ on Discovery HD was better than HBO or Starz.

 

[Sean Mota]

So are you saying that HDnet is coming to Cablevision?

Not saying that at all but it has been clear from the time that Cuban and Cablevision started talking that Cuban was asking for money that Cablevision was not willing to give him for HDnet. Cablevision instead opted to bring INHD to their system.

 

[soledade]

I have been reluctant to post on this thread because maybe Conjuror would feel that I am picking on him (that was stated in another thread) but I cannot bypasses it anymore.

snip...

Don't compare apple to oranges. Compare things that equal and the same on both. If that was true then I will compare Discover HD Theater to Starz or HBO and say that at any given moment the PQ on Discovery HD was better than HBO or Starz.

Good points Sean. However I believe we are on to something here regarding picture quality. I have been particularly troubled by a "delayed Apples to Apples" comparison.

What I mean is comparing the same programming on EAST and WEST coast feeds on VOOM. Almost always (99.9%) of the time the EAST feeds look much bettern on my sammy DLP over DVI than the WEST feeds. I know it's not the same as an A/B switch because of the delay. However the difference is so RIDICULOUS the time offset does not really matter.

WEST feeds = pixelation and macro-blocking regardless of the tranfer quality.


I really WISH someone at VOOM would get off their bum and do something about this. We have been hearing the "we are working on it" story for months now.

ARRGGG! Can you tell I am frustrated?

Just had to vent.

Carlos

 

[Sean Mota]

Carlos,

The East to West issues on HD channels is an issue that has not being brought up a whole lot lately. I am maybe mistaken but this is the first time in a while that someone is reporting the problems. I am not saying that is not there. It is probably that we in East coast don't watch much of the West coast channels unless it is something that we missed. I responded to you in another thread about emailing Wilt because this is clearly an issue that should not be happening. I also wish that more Western voomers could report the issues so that we can check and notify Wilt as well.

No problem about the venting Carlos. I completely agree with you about the issues on West HD channels.

 

[Seawaves]

Carlos,

The East to West issues on HD channels is an issue that has not being brought up a whole lot lately. I am maybe mistaken but this is the first time in a while that someone is reporting the problems. I am not saying that is not there. It is probably that we in East coast don't watch much of the West coast channels unless it is something that we missed. I responded to you in another thread about emailing Wilt because this is clearly an issue that should not be happening. I also wish that more Western voomers could report the issues so that we can check and notify Wilt as well.

No problem about the venting Carlos. I completely agree with you about the issues on West HD channels.

This may be worth looking into- my favorite channel was HBO HDW but now the PQ is lame.

 

[Conjuror]

First from the beginning of the thread the assumption made is that all "HD transfers are made equal" One movie from HDnet Movies was compared to 10 different HD movies playing on HD Cinema. Note that the only common thing to the comparison is that they are designated "HD".

The other comparison made was a film transfer (from HDnet movies) to HDnews, WorldSports, Equator-HD, Rave-HD, & Rush-HD. Again, don't know where this comes from but the last time I checked none of these programs are carried by HDnet Movies.

Conjuror, if you want to this right compare HD Film transfers that have been playing on both HDnet Movies and HD Cinema. I will give you an example. Compare "The Woman in Red". The Woman in Red recently played on HD Cinema and has been playing on HDnet Movies. It will be played again on HDnet Movies on Saturday morning. Now if you saw it on HD Cinema compare it to the one that was playing on HD Cinema. Notice that when "the woman in red" played on both HDnet movies and HD Cinema, they played at the same Aspect Ratio.

Don't compare apple to oranges. Compare things that equal and the same on both. If that was true then I will compare Discover HD Theater to Starz or HBO and say that at any given moment the PQ on Discovery HD was better than HBO or Starz.

Sean man, let me correct you once again. We are not talking about subtracting and adding apples and oranges in kindergarten, it is not that simple. What we are talking about here is a taste. Can you not tell which one is sweeter? Sure you can. It's the same with PQ. You don't have to watch the same show to tell which picture is better, you just know it.

For example, look on the Horrible PQ on tennis channel thread. All of you agreed that it looks worse than other channels but no one, including you, bothered to say "well, we can't compare apple and oranges, we have to watch the same show to say which one is better". Why? Because all of you simply know that the tennis channel is not as good as other channels and you don't have to watch the same show for that.

In fact, I remember you saying few times on other topics that there is nothing like HDNet. I highly doubt you needed to watch same two shows to figure that out. And I think you'll agree that HDNet is superior to any Voom's HD channel.

That is what we should talk about here. High compression (Voom has it) is like a cancer - if you don't cut it of in its early stage it'll spread eventually everywhere. That is my worry about Voom - they are intentionally not matching PQ to HDNet just to be able to give us more channels. If that thinking spreads on other DBS providers then the HD revolution will disappear in 5-6 years.

I don't hate Voom. I will be Vooming until there is no better choice. However, all of us who are driving force on the DBS market, should demand the highest possible HD PQ everywhere. If we don't, they will use more and more compression for as long as we are not bitching about it. Therefore, I believe it is critical to complain now, in HD early stage, to force DBS providers to look after better compression techniques to give us more channels, not just to squeeze existing ones in order to make more room for new ones.