Can these companys be turn into the each states attorney generals office for fals advertising....
How can they legaly say its HD when it is NOT?
How can they legaly say its HD when it is NOT?
Voom to stay HDLITE in MPEG 4
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Gary Murrell said:oh and by the way Rdinkel, lots of the mpeg2 1280x1080i Voom are running at really high 16 Mbps bitrates right now, I wonder why?? could it be because of CES
16 Mbps does 1920x1080i HD just fine, Dish check your other HD channels on 110, most of them are under 15 Mbps and 1920x1080i
Dish, what a bunch of lying clowns
-Gary
well at least there is no longer a rush to go to MPEG4 receivers if all they give you is hdlite. i was really concerned that i wouldnt get a new receiver before feb first but now who cares. i was even going to go out on the limb for a vip622 as soon as it came out but why bother now? why do i want to record and archive hdlite?
i used to watch monster hd non stop because even the black and white movies were so crisp and clear it was like watching them for the first time. now i cant even be bothered with it. its like watching an SD movie in wide screen. wider? yes... better? not really. i havent reviewed the new hd packages but if i can drop voom and get just the old hd package i will.
i guess i will spend my money on blue ray or hd dvd now instead of MPEG4
yeah i know i posted this comment on the CES board. i thought it needed repeating.
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Those that do not know what a true HD video looks like will be wowed and go with the MPEG-4 HD receivers to get the additional HD content. Many that already knew what the quality of full rez was will know that there is no other alternative other than BUD to get the full rez content.
Yes save that money and buy Blu-Ray
Why the heck would anyone pay to upgrade to mpeg4 in HD-Lite ??, WTF gives here ??
Dish is not strapped for space putting up mpeg2 HD, mpeg4 HD in 1280x1080i is just stupid, they are doing it from the start becuase folks will never know what True HDTV is, all the new folks that sign up for mpeg4 locals will be buffallo'd and never know what true HDTV is like
then with 1280x1080i and mpeg4 Dish can crame TP's away to no end
of course Dish would put the demo at 1920x1080i with 17 Mbps Video, makes sense doesn't it ??
If only people could see D-VHS D-Theater tapes, 1920x1080i at 24 Mbps video
Dish is a bunch of liars and to say that they have not been taking advantage of us over the years would be admitting to being a Dish homer, at least back then we got true 1920x1080i HD with good bitrates, it was worth all the money in the world and we almost spent that
600$ 6000's
1000$ 921's
600$ 942's
years of loyal sub's paying out the ass and what do we get ?? kicked in the Jimmy
you just lost a Big Fish, Dish, I pay big bills and spread the word of Dish quality everywhere I go
-Gary
Why the heck would anyone pay to upgrade to mpeg4 in HD-Lite ??, WTF gives here ??
Dish is not strapped for space putting up mpeg2 HD, mpeg4 HD in 1280x1080i is just stupid, they are doing it from the start becuase folks will never know what True HDTV is, all the new folks that sign up for mpeg4 locals will be buffallo'd and never know what true HDTV is like
then with 1280x1080i and mpeg4 Dish can crame TP's away to no end
of course Dish would put the demo at 1920x1080i with 17 Mbps Video, makes sense doesn't it ??
If only people could see D-VHS D-Theater tapes, 1920x1080i at 24 Mbps video
Dish is a bunch of liars and to say that they have not been taking advantage of us over the years would be admitting to being a Dish homer
, at least back then we got true 1920x1080i HD with good bitrates, it was worth all the money in the world and we almost spent that 600$ 6000's
1000$ 921's
600$ 942's
years of loyal sub's paying out the ass and what do we get ?? kicked in the Jimmy
you just lost a Big Fish, Dish, I pay big bills and spread the word of Dish quality everywhere I go
-Gary
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i couldnt agree with you more gary. i guess stargazer is trying to put a good face on it but again as i posted in the other thread i can just hope that when at&t buys echostar we will see decent hdtv at least with the IPTV content. then i will buy whatever box at&t wants me to buy. i already have dish and sbc yahoo so i am hopeful that the new 2wire box and decent HD will be available to me soon.Gary Murrell said:Yes save that money and buy Blu-Ray
Why the heck would anyone pay to upgrade to mpeg4 in HD-Lite ??, WTF gives here ??
Dish is not strapped for space putting up mpeg2 HD, mpeg4 HD in 1280x1080i is just stupid, they are doing it from the start becuase folks will never know what True HDTV is, all the new folks that sign up for mpeg4 locals will be buffallo'd and never know what true HDTV is like
then with 1280x1080i and mpeg4 Dish can crame TP's away to no end
of course Dish would put the demo at 1920x1080i with 17 Mbps Video, makes sense doesn't it ??
If only people could see D-VHS D-Theater tapes, 1920x1080i at 24 Mbps video
Dish is a bunch of liars and to say that they have not been taking advantage of us over the years would be admitting to being a Dish homer
600$ 6000's
1000$ 921's
600$ 942's
years of loyal sub's paying out the ass and what do we get ?? kicked in the Jimmy
you just lost a Big Fish, Dish, I pay big bills and spread the word of Dish quality everywhere I go
-Gary
If Dish is really concerned about lack of customers for HD to cover the cost of true HD they should've cut the crap and produced one brochure this time touting separate HD with no other package having to be tacked on.
The brochure would look like a typical Dish one except it would only show one tier of channels and the optional HBO and Showtime would be displayed to the side. Seriously offer that for now and wait.
Charge $30 for nationals and $35 with locals. All that is currently offered would be there as well as INHD1-2 and translated Korean HD channels as well as TV Tokyo in HD as well as any prime Cable channel that has an HD. Dish could also offer YES and NBA TV HD with this package with the usual disclaimers.
The brochure would look like a typical Dish one except it would only show one tier of channels and the optional HBO and Showtime would be displayed to the side. Seriously offer that for now and wait.
Charge $30 for nationals and $35 with locals. All that is currently offered would be there as well as INHD1-2 and translated Korean HD channels as well as TV Tokyo in HD as well as any prime Cable channel that has an HD. Dish could also offer YES and NBA TV HD with this package with the usual disclaimers.
Where all feeling what your feeling right now. I feel like selling my 811 and getting a good OTA receiver with a hard drive in it or getting one of those Samsung OTA receivers with firewire output and archiving to a big ass hard drive. I swear someone ought to get there ass whipped for this. I'm glad I didn't go to CES because I probably would have punched Charlie and anyone who I thought even worked at Dish right in there big fat lying mouth. Rich prick.Sean Mota said:
I'm with you on this one. There isn't a need for me to be getting a MPEG4 receiver. I could care less now. If i don't end up dropping dish I will wait till they absolutly make me upgrade. And even then I won't spend a red cent on the damn thing.richmert said:
Does anyone know which channels on DIsh are full HD? As I posted in an earlier Post, HDnet seems to be the clearest and most detailed looking channel I watch.
Maybe it's my Imagination but I swear even Discovery looks less clear now, where as before the whole downrezzing debacle started, it really used to pop out at me, as well as Equator.
I'm a true believer that even if you are going to downrez the other channels, you should definitely leave the nature/lifestyle channels alone. That was the biggest selling point when I first bought my HDTV. I was really looking forward to the National geographic channel in HD, but if it's going to be in HD lite i'm now like, "ahh, who cares"?
Maybe it's my Imagination but I swear even Discovery looks less clear now, where as before the whole downrezzing debacle started, it really used to pop out at me, as well as Equator.
I'm a true believer that even if you are going to downrez the other channels, you should definitely leave the nature/lifestyle channels alone. That was the biggest selling point when I first bought my HDTV. I was really looking forward to the National geographic channel in HD, but if it's going to be in HD lite i'm now like, "ahh, who cares"?
Heres my take and question:
Im an original dish subscriber (one of the first 500,000 subscribers) and even now Im getting fed up. I spent all this money on a HD set and all I can really watch is locals (that come in quite good) the HD pack for 10 bucks/mo is a joke for 5 channels. I was this week gonna add voom till I heard I needed a 2nd dish and then it would only be HD lite. Forget that. A guy at work was telling me TW cable HD is not compressed . Is this the case? Does anybody know? I would think about switching if this was so plus I could lease a HD pvr for 10 bucks/mo. I like dish but if they are going to down rez their HD I may consider bailing out.
Does anybody know the model number/manufacturer who makes a OTA tuner w/built in DVR/harddrive thats good and not too much$ ? Thanks Bob P
Im an original dish subscriber (one of the first 500,000 subscribers) and even now Im getting fed up. I spent all this money on a HD set and all I can really watch is locals (that come in quite good) the HD pack for 10 bucks/mo is a joke for 5 channels. I was this week gonna add voom till I heard I needed a 2nd dish and then it would only be HD lite. Forget that. A guy at work was telling me TW cable HD is not compressed . Is this the case? Does anybody know? I would think about switching if this was so plus I could lease a HD pvr for 10 bucks/mo. I like dish but if they are going to down rez their HD I may consider bailing out.
Does anybody know the model number/manufacturer who makes a OTA tuner w/built in DVR/harddrive thats good and not too much$ ? Thanks Bob P
robertjp said:
These are the 3 that I know of: LG LST-3410A, Sony DHG-HDD250, and Sony DHG-HDD500.
I've been quiet about HD-Lite topics. I am dissappointed by the announcement but not that surprised. I have both D* and Dish but I find that the majority of HD I watch is OTA to which I receive. I've been experimenting with my Microsoft Media Center. I threw in one of the new OTA HD capture cards (only 100 bucks) and it works great. So I am straddling the concept of going mostly OTA as I can add more cards anytime I want. With whatever HD DVD format is gonna win, I can watch my movies via DVD and tape 80% of my viewing OTA on my Media Center.
So right now, the only thing that makes me subscribe to Satellite is Comedy Central and ESPN. I wish I could do ala carte with a captue card directly in my Media Center. I then can tell companies that HD-Lite is not acceptable with my wallet. But as it stands, the programming packages have us hostage for a couple of channels. I wish there were more options to get channels directly. Lets hope Video of IP gets more pervasive.
So right now, the only thing that makes me subscribe to Satellite is Comedy Central and ESPN. I wish I could do ala carte with a captue card directly in my Media Center. I then can tell companies that HD-Lite is not acceptable with my wallet. But as it stands, the programming packages have us hostage for a couple of channels. I wish there were more options to get channels directly. Lets hope Video of IP gets more pervasive.
I am bummed
I am a potential new customer for DISH. My installation of a DISH1000 and a 942 is scheduled for later this month (though I will postpone in order to get a 622 STB, if I decide to go through with the installation at all after reading this thread.) I chose to switch to DISH from DTV simply because of DISH's superior HD service. Needless to say, the contents of this thread are upsetting to me, too. What you guys need to do is to get this story out to the national media so to create some real negative and embarrassing publicity surrounding this very bad and apparently needless and stupid decision on the part of DISH. Telling each other how pissed off and upset we are is not going to do much good. This could be done at CES, where there are probably lots of roving reporters looking for a story line. Getting Mark Cuban on their ass is also probably a good idea. Directv definitely sucks, too, so I too am in a quandary about what to do. All the hysteria over the advent of 1080p hardware is pretty laughable in view of the diminishing (rather than increasing) supply of worthy HD programming. I am even to some degree regretting my purchase of a 720p plasma, because of this mess.
I am a potential new customer for DISH. My installation of a DISH1000 and a 942 is scheduled for later this month (though I will postpone in order to get a 622 STB, if I decide to go through with the installation at all after reading this thread.) I chose to switch to DISH from DTV simply because of DISH's superior HD service. Needless to say, the contents of this thread are upsetting to me, too. What you guys need to do is to get this story out to the national media so to create some real negative and embarrassing publicity surrounding this very bad and apparently needless and stupid decision on the part of DISH. Telling each other how pissed off and upset we are is not going to do much good. This could be done at CES, where there are probably lots of roving reporters looking for a story line. Getting Mark Cuban on their ass is also probably a good idea. Directv definitely sucks, too, so I too am in a quandary about what to do. All the hysteria over the advent of 1080p hardware is pretty laughable in view of the diminishing (rather than increasing) supply of worthy HD programming. I am even to some degree regretting my purchase of a 720p plasma, because of this mess.
I just read this thread and all I can say is that I'm looking forward to Monday night's chat. I just subscribed to Dish last month, so this will be my first one.
The reason I chose Dish over D* was the fact that D* was using hdlite exclusively. When the Voom channels went hdlite, I was disappointed, but hopeful that it was only temporary. Now that it seems, that is not the case, I definitely won't be as eager to promote Dish's HD service.
We do need to find an avenue to get this information out to somebody who can actually do something about it rather than sit here and have a pity party amongst ourselves. State attornies general, the federal attorney general, our state and federal legislators, the media, and yes even Mark Cuban are all great possibilities.
Of course, the ultimate thing to happen would be for Charlie to realize that he has a golden oppurtunity to promote "quality over quantity" (even though he would still have more HD channels than D*) by promoting his channels as TRUE HD instead of the "fake" HD that others are doing.
John
The reason I chose Dish over D* was the fact that D* was using hdlite exclusively. When the Voom channels went hdlite, I was disappointed, but hopeful that it was only temporary. Now that it seems, that is not the case, I definitely won't be as eager to promote Dish's HD service.
We do need to find an avenue to get this information out to somebody who can actually do something about it rather than sit here and have a pity party amongst ourselves. State attornies general, the federal attorney general, our state and federal legislators, the media, and yes even Mark Cuban are all great possibilities.
Of course, the ultimate thing to happen would be for Charlie to realize that he has a golden oppurtunity to promote "quality over quantity" (even though he would still have more HD channels than D*) by promoting his channels as TRUE HD instead of the "fake" HD that others are doing.
John
robertjp:
ALL digital TV is compressed- it's the nature of the beast. The degree of compression is variable, so an OTA station can multicast, or a cableco could squeeze in more channels.
OTA can be, and usually is, the highest quality HD PQ you can get. But some stations, such as WETA (PBS) will try to multicast an HD signal and an SD signal. This works just fine if you're transmitting images of growing grass. And not even then if the wind blows and the grass moves. All the same, the multicast HD image still looks fine on a roughly 36" TV or smaller. Most people to date moving to HD tend to move to larger screen sizes, where pixelation and other artifacts are more evident from multicasting. If MPEG-4 were part of the ATSC standard, we could pull off the multicasting trick with one subchannel being in HD. But it isn't, and we can't. I doubt that we'll see MPEG-4 or any other compression method added to ATSC in the next 30 plus years. And a better compression method than MPEG-4 is probably at least 10, more likely 20 or more, years away. How long was MPEG-2 around before MPEG-4 was finalized?
Maybe after Echostar X is launched, and Rainbow-1 is put into service, and MPEG-4 lives up to it's promise of 40% or more additional compression with no more loss of PQ, and after millions more HDTVs are out there that can actually display the difference, E* might be able to return to full rez and still add more HD channels. Right now, they need to satisfy the largest number of possible paying customers- the ones that can count channels but not lines of resolution.
ALL digital TV is compressed- it's the nature of the beast. The degree of compression is variable, so an OTA station can multicast, or a cableco could squeeze in more channels.
OTA can be, and usually is, the highest quality HD PQ you can get. But some stations, such as WETA (PBS) will try to multicast an HD signal and an SD signal. This works just fine if you're transmitting images of growing grass. And not even then if the wind blows and the grass moves. All the same, the multicast HD image still looks fine on a roughly 36" TV or smaller. Most people to date moving to HD tend to move to larger screen sizes, where pixelation and other artifacts are more evident from multicasting. If MPEG-4 were part of the ATSC standard, we could pull off the multicasting trick with one subchannel being in HD. But it isn't, and we can't. I doubt that we'll see MPEG-4 or any other compression method added to ATSC in the next 30 plus years. And a better compression method than MPEG-4 is probably at least 10, more likely 20 or more, years away. How long was MPEG-2 around before MPEG-4 was finalized?
Maybe after Echostar X is launched, and Rainbow-1 is put into service, and MPEG-4 lives up to it's promise of 40% or more additional compression with no more loss of PQ, and after millions more HDTVs are out there that can actually display the difference, E* might be able to return to full rez and still add more HD channels. Right now, they need to satisfy the largest number of possible paying customers- the ones that can count channels but not lines of resolution.
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Or small claims court
We purchased 6 811s, switches, dishes and paid for the installation based on the real HD they had represented to us at the time. Sue them in small claims court to get all of your money back that you have invested. Make sure you take proof of what HD is and what they are now providing. Dish would have to hire an attorney to defend themselves. You will most likely win by default or I have no doubt with a well thought out arguement to the court you would win anyway.
Dish has the right to sell anything they want. They do not have the right to misrepresent their product to the public. It would be a really big win to have an attorney general tell them they have to stop representing it as HD, since it isn't.
Paradox-SJ said:
We purchased 6 811s, switches, dishes and paid for the installation based on the real HD they had represented to us at the time. Sue them in small claims court to get all of your money back that you have invested. Make sure you take proof of what HD is and what they are now providing. Dish would have to hire an attorney to defend themselves. You will most likely win by default or I have no doubt with a well thought out arguement to the court you would win anyway.
Dish has the right to sell anything they want. They do not have the right to misrepresent their product to the public. It would be a really big win to have an attorney general tell them they have to stop representing it as HD, since it isn't.
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If that's the case, what is everyone complaining about? Sounds like you are getting exactly what you all wanted.
Here is my personal take on this:
And the PQ on them sucked ever since! Sorry Dish Network, we should've complained more I guess!
True. But still, most of us have equipment that has higher resolution than HD-Lite (including all those popular Sony Grand Vegas!) and does show significant difference between HD and HD-Lite!
Who said that??? For the past fiew weeks we have been running a poll on our HDTV home page. And it shows that overwhelming majority (152 to 9!) will prefer less HD channels in full resolution!
Great! Another good lesson that Dish Network learned from DirecTV! Let's keep promising the best HD in the world in some distant future while feeding HD-Lite down our throats!
You don't have to be a purist to see the difference between HD and 2/3HD! But regardless, this is a pretty bad move from the business standpoint. Pissing off the higher end of the customers will generate so much of the bad publicity and bad reputation for Dish, that this will definitly affect the purchasing decisions of the less discriminating subscribers who will simply listen to what others are saying! Bad move Echostar!
- Nov 29, 2003
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One of the biggest points I think are being lost is when Voom was Voom the res. was 1440x1080i and no one noticed, not this 1280x1080i crap they are feeding you guys now.
Who made the decision to go to 1280 instead of 1440, if Voom, I would think they would of gone to 1440 since they knew how to work with it ( since most did not noticed they did a good job ), so my bet is on E* making them do it and that means soon the other HD channels will go the same way, the path to HD Lite.
Who made the decision to go to 1280 instead of 1440, if Voom, I would think they would of gone to 1440 since they knew how to work with it ( since most did not noticed they did a good job ), so my bet is on E* making them do it and that means soon the other HD channels will go the same way, the path to HD Lite.
