VOOM and OTA HDTV

[sdallnct]

OK, here is what I got...

KDFW (Fox) 4.1 RF 35 does not show up in my favorites or in my channel listing.

Per the NAB site mentioned, there are six channels I'm not getting including FOX. However, 2 of the channels show 0 signal strength and three show less then 50%. So I assume nothing will lock in at less then 80% since that is what the "aim antenna" meter says. Of course, the sixth channel Fox, still shows a solid green 93.

I'm guessing we are running out of options here. I did PM txdud and have not heard back yet.

I guess I could go pick up one of those $200 HD Receivers at Wal-Mart and see if it picks it up and then return it. I hate that I may have blown a $100, but that was including the antenna which looks like runs about $40-$50, so guess really only have $50 or $60 in the box. And the antenna does seem to work well. Of course since it gets it's power from the diplexer in the back, I wonder if it will work with another HD receiver??

 

[Ilya]

Just to add to what others have already mentioned.

1. If the station is not sending PSIP data, you will not be able to scan it in with DSR-550.
2. There might be some sort of interference problem when the signal is strong, but still cannot be locked on.
3. If you have an antenna with a built-in pre-amp (like Winegard Sensar II), you need to provide voltage to it. In traditional VOOM setup, voltage was provided from the sattelite input via diplexer. If you have your antenna connected to the OTA input, voltage is not supplied and you need to buy a power supply.

Good luck!

 

[riffjim4069]

You have a number of DTV stations in your DMA and I am sure some of them are low power. Although you can probably pick up a couple borderline channels with a better OTA antenna, I wouldn't worry about it if you're happy with the big 4...or should I say, the big 3. Yes, you will need a signal level of at least 80 to lock those channels.

I too am running out of ideas. Have your heard back from txdude or Ilya? As a last resort, you may try posting this in the VOOM "In Your Area" Dallas Thread. Or course, I doubt many people are monitoring that thread so you may try sending StephenD, Pete In Plano and mdanderson a PM - they all appear to have been receiving your local FOX4 channel when they had VOOM DBS service.

 

[sdallnct]

Just to add to what others have already mentioned.

1. If the station is not sending PSIP data, you will not be able to scan it in with DSR-550.
2. There might be some sort of interference problem when the signal is strong, but still cannot be locked on.
3. If you have an antenna with a built-in pre-amp (like Winegard Sensar II), you need to provide voltage to it. In traditional VOOM setup, voltage was provided from the sattelite input via diplexer. If you have your antenna connected to the OTA input, voltage is not supplied and you need to buy a power supply.

Good luck!

Thanks so much,

1. I e-mailed the station asking if they have had problems or interference with the PSIP broadcast. I'll give them a day or two and then call. In doing research, I get mixed results. Some say it is still common for a station not to broadcast the PSIP or broadcast only part of it. Others say on a major channel in a major city it would be highly unlikely they are not broadcasting as the FCC as mandated it for some time now. I don't know if some HD receivers tell if the PSIP is being broadcast or not, but was hoping someone who had the ability could tell me for a fact if KDFW is broadcasting the complete PSIP information.
2. I have tried at different times and after moving the antenna slightly. While I suppose interference could be an issue, again all major channels in my area are in the same direction (193-197 degrees - and being nearly 30 miles away I would think that is pretty much dead on the same direction). I'm obviously not a tech guy, but I would be surprised if interference would be selective on one single channel all the time and never bother any other channel.
3. Yes I have Sensar antenna and I believe it is powered. I have it hooked in via the diplexer and as mentioned get a strong signal on all channels. I have also tried pulling out the diplexer and plugging directly into the unit and I get no signal on any major channel.

You know I think if I bought this and it didn't work at all it wouldn't bother me as much. I mean, always a gamble to buy something used on ebay. But the fact that it works on every channel but this one just makes it frustrating.

 

[sdallnct]

You have a number of DTV stations in your DMA and I am sure some of them are low power. Although you can probably pick up a couple borderline channels with a better OTA antenna, I wouldn't worry about it if you're happy with the big 4...or should I say, the big 3. Yes, you will need a signal level of at least 80 to lock those channels.

I too am running out of ideas. Have your heard back from txdude or Ilya? As a last resort, you may try posting this in the VOOM "In Your Area" Dallas Thread. Or course, I doubt many people are monitoring that thread so you may try sending StephenD, Pete In Plano and mdanderson a PM - they all appear to have been receiving your local FOX4 channel when they had VOOM DBS service.

Yup, I was planning on using this antenna to test the waters then get a better one or yogi if I had trouble. But this antenna appears to work well for me. I'm very happy with the channels I'm getting and get almost no breakup. I guess it wasn't being broadcast in HD, but yesterday I watched the golf tournament for several hours and think I got a little breakup once or twice. I'm actually surprised at the number of channels I'm getting but the main reason I took the jump now was for the Cowboys, which means Fox, which I can't get!

I have not heard back from txdude yet. I did see someone having a similar problem over at AVS. He has a HTPC and gets all channels but Fox, but when he uses the built in tuner on his tv, then he gets it. He has called the station to see if any issues.

 

[Ilya]

Based on what you wrote, I would strongly suspect missing (or incorrect) PSIP data.

If the box was activated in your area, this wouldn't be an issue. The DSR-550 can tune to any channel in its local DMA, whether that channel has PSIP data or not. The problem is that a box from eBay was likely activated in a different DMA, so your local channels are not part of its pre-defined OTA map. The box can scan in additional channels that are not part of its DMA map, but only if these channels send PSIP data (channel ID info). Unfortunately, some local stations still don't do it, or do it incorrectly.

Most standalone OTA receivers are not picky about PSIP, but the DSR-550 is. That's probably because it relied on Program Guide sent via satellite and needed a reliable way of identifying a station. VOOM has partially overcome this limitation by issuing Super-DMA maps which included stations from neighboring DMAs without requiring PSIP data. Again, this does not help in your case. Version 6.20 that you have does not even support Super-DMAs.

Ilya.

Thanks so much,

1. I e-mailed the station asking if they have had problems or interference with the PSIP broadcast. I'll give them a day or two and then call. In doing research, I get mixed results. Some say it is still common for a station not to broadcast the PSIP or broadcast only part of it. Others say on a major channel in a major city it would be highly unlikely they are not broadcasting as the FCC as mandated it for some time now. I don't know if some HD receivers tell if the PSIP is being broadcast or not, but was hoping someone who had the ability could tell me for a fact if KDFW is broadcasting the complete PSIP information.
2. I have tried at different times and after moving the antenna slightly. While I suppose interference could be an issue, again all major channels in my area are in the same direction (193-197 degrees - and being nearly 30 miles away I would think that is pretty much dead on the same direction). I'm obviously not a tech guy, but I would be surprised if interference would be selective on one single channel all the time and never bother any other channel.
3. Yes I have Sensar antenna and I believe it is powered. I have it hooked in via the diplexer and as mentioned get a strong signal on all channels. I have also tried pulling out the diplexer and plugging directly into the unit and I get no signal on any major channel.

 

[sdallnct]

Based on what you wrote, I would strongly suspect missing (or incorrect) PSIP data.

If the box was activated in your area, this wouldn't be an issue. The DSR-550 can tune to any channel in its local DMA, whether that channel has PSIP data or not. The problem is that a box from eBay was likely activated in a different DMA, so your local channels are not part of its pre-defined OTA map. The box can scan in additional channels that are not part of its DMA map, but only if these channels send PSIP data (channel ID info). Unfortunately, some local stations still don't do it, or do it incorrectly.

Most standalone OTA receivers are not picky about PSIP, but the DSR-550 is. That's probably because it relied on Program Guide sent via satellite and needed a reliable way of identifying a station. VOOM has partially overcome this limitation by issuing Super-DMA maps which included stations from neighboring DMAs without requiring PSIP data. Again, this does not help in your case. Version 6.20 that you have does not even support Super-DMAs.

Ilya.

Yea, based on talk here and elsewhere I think it is a PSIP issue. As mentioned I did e-mail the station and another guy on another forum has called them with the same issue (not a Voom box but HTPC). I will try again when I get in my component cables so I don't have to keep doing manual switching.

I also appreciate the information. So if the Voom box was activated in this area, it should work even if the PSIP is not broadcast? Guess I can hit the pawn shops and stuff and see what I can come up with. I really wanted to stick to a low cost solution as right now I only have the one TV that can broadcast HD (and that is not true HD as it is an X-1 PJ) and I wanted to see what happens with the whole MPEG4 thing (we use Dish Network).

Thanks again...

 

[Ilya]

So if the Voom box was activated in this area, it should work even if the PSIP is not broadcast?

That's right. And in case you want to know the map number for your area, I believe Dallas is OTA map # 007...
Currently you have 026, which is San Diego, CA.

 

[sdallnct]

That's right. And in case you want to know the map number for your area, I believe Dallas is OTA map # 007...
Currently you have 026, which is San Diego, CA.

Thanks, after watching MNF with my beloved Cowboys, I HAVE to find a solution one way or another. What an incredible picture! By far the best picture I have seen in my house and that is on a 94" screen! I can't imagine what it would be like if I had a true HD projector!!! I got in my component cables and hooked up to my new HT Receiver that has component switching. So I could easily switch from the Voom Box to my Dishnetork. It wasn't even close. True, I had the Dish going thru a Tivo unit, but I tried it quickly direct and the Tivo did not really hurt the quality that much. But the HD on the Voom box was truely impressive. And as the 2nd/3rd stringers went in, I would swith over to CSI. CSI is often a dark show and I never could get my projector to show it "well". But with the HD it was outstanding. I'm very, very impressed. Not only was the image quality impressive, but I was also impressed that with 3 full quarters of football watched straight thru (I did go do something at half), I did not see the image break up even once.

The image is so much better then what I expected, I almost want to just use the Voom box as a planter stand and go get a LG STB. ALMOST. Still see if I can get this to work or find an inexpensive alternative.

 

[Carl B]

Not to give you false hope, but while you wait for a response from your local Fox station, I'd suggest eliminating one more possibility for your problem. Given the high signal readings you are getting, the closeness of your signal sources, and the tight grouping of the signal source azimuths, there is still the possibility that you can't lock the Fox channel because the other signals are too strong. It's called Inter-Modulation Distortion (IMD).

While it generally isn't a problem w/ DTV signals, it can be. The quick test is to insert an attenuator between the antenna input cable and your VOOM box. Radio Shack has an excellent return policy, so there isn't any financial risk. Either a fixed 6 db attenuator (get the 1 male, 1 female end one) or the variable attenuator (2 female ends, so you need a short piece of coax out to your VOOM box).

Buy it. Hook it up. See if it makes a difference. If not, return the item to RS for a refund.

 

[sdallnct]

Not to give you false hope, but while you wait for a response from your local Fox station, I'd suggest eliminating one more possibility for your problem. Given the high signal readings you are getting, the closeness of your signal sources, and the tight grouping of the signal source azimuths, there is still the possibility that you can't lock the Fox channel because the other signals are too strong. It's called Inter-Modulation Distortion (IMD).

While it generally isn't a problem w/ DTV signals, it can be. The quick test is to insert an attenuator between the antenna input cable and your VOOM box. Radio Shack has an excellent return policy, so there isn't any financial risk. Either a fixed 6 db attenuator (get the 1 male, 1 female end one) or the variable attenuator (2 female ends, so you need a short piece of coax out to your VOOM box).

Buy it. Hook it up. See if it makes a difference. If not, return the item to RS for a refund.

Would this be what you are talking about??? Only $4.00, I'll pick one up this afternoon and try it.

Radio Shack

 

[Carl B]

That's it. Consider getting 2 as the "rule of thumb" for attenuation of strong input signals is 10 db.

 

[sdallnct]

That's it. Consider getting 2 as the "rule of thumb" for attenuation of strong input signals is 10 db.

Ooops, missed your note about getting 2. I got 1 and still did not work. However, I did seem to be getting more channels locked. Prior I think it locked into 13 and now I get 17. I think most of them are "sub-channels".

I did notice when scanning there were a couple more channels that it paused on, but did not lock. Best I could tell, there were 3 channels including Fox that during scanning it paused for several seconds and then moved on without locking. After the pause I would get a note like "5 of 7 channels found" or something. Now, one of them had a questionable signal strength, but the other one had a strong signal but would not lock (like Fox). It is some independent so I really don't care about getting it, but wonder if it could be leading me in a direction to figure out what is going on.

I assume with 2 you would just screw them into each other?

 

[Ilya]

"5 of 7 channels found"

FYI: that message is a bit misleading, but it really means the following: "Seven channels found. Five of them are currently displayed."
You can only see 5 channels at a time during the scan. Once the scan is complete you can scroll through the entire list of channels.

 

[Carl B]

I assume with 2 you would just screw them into each other?

Yes or you could the try the $10 variable attenuator (0 to 20 db). Remember that you need a short piece of coax to hook it up because it has 2 female ends.

Good luck.

 

[sdallnct]

OK, tried two, no go. I actually lost a couple of channels. I didn't see any real difference in signal strength in most of the channels, but I seemed to loose a couple (not the majors just some of the sub channels, I think).

One seems to help so I'm leaving one on, and took the other one off.

Bummer...had fingers crossed....

 

[Pete In Plano]

Those "Batwing" antennas never worked very good for me in Plano. I went to Fry's and got a good $60 antenna and all my problems were gone. Also, the Voom receivers no longer get any info from the sattelite (seeing it is shut down) so you may have to manually add all the channels you need.

 

[sdallnct]

Those "Batwing" antennas never worked very good for me in Plano. I went to Fry's and got a good $60 antenna and all my problems were gone. Also, the Voom receivers no longer get any info from the sattelite (seeing it is shut down) so you may have to manually add all the channels you need.

Are you using a Voom box? Please tell me how to "manually" add channels. That is what I have been looking to do. As mentioned, using scan channels I get 17 HD signals to lock including ABC, NBC and CBS (affiliates). However, Fox "pauses" during channel scan but will not lock, thus I cannot watch it. Using "aim antenna" Fox shows between 90-94 in signal strength which is typical and even a little higher then the other channels I'm having no trouble with. I even leave that one in the "aim antenna", but when I scan for channels, it won't lock on.

I'm new at this but with all the research I have done, I do not believe you can manually add a channel to a Voom box. That the Voom box does not do channel mapping. Seems based on feedback here and at AVS I have the following options:

-Live without Fox (this I cannot do, After watching MNF in HD, I want my Cowboys in HD!)
-Try to verify with Fox that they are broadcasting their PSIP correctly. I have sent one e-mail and left one voice mail message.
-Purchase a Voom box locally as this will have been "mapped" to Dallas and should get all local channels in HD.
-Purchase a newer STB. Seems most are not having problems with Fox so it maybe due to the age of this box and/or lack of features (channel mapping).
-Go back to trying to get a STB from Dish Network. I really don't mind the dollars outlaid for this, but I do not want to spend $10.00 per month for programing that I don't want. I'm wondering if I get this thru Dish and wait a month or two then cancel the HD service saying I'm not happy what would they do? Since I'm leasing the box would they make me send it back and exchange for SD box?
-Purchase a Dish HD STB from a 3rd party. But I have not confirmed with Dish that they still will not force me to purchase their HD package when I have them activate the box.

 

[sdallnct]

Most standalone OTA receivers are not picky about PSIP, but the DSR-550 is. That's probably because it relied on Program Guide sent via satellite and needed a reliable way of identifying a station. VOOM has partially overcome this limitation by issuing Super-DMA maps which included stations from neighboring DMAs without requiring PSIP data. Again, this does not help in your case. Version 6.20 that you have does not even support Super-DMAs.

Ilya.

What are the chances that a newer FW version would work (with or w/o PSIP information)? I know you guys are helping and nothing is "for sure" when talking old, outdated, out of business equipment, but what do you think.

I found a guy on eBay selling Voom boxes VERY cheap as they do not have remotes, cables, diplexers and even the cover for the card slot is missing (but the card is included). He has checked for me and does have a unit w/V7.37 and since I already have all that other stuff from the 1st Voom box, I thought about taking a chance. $$ on the box itself make it a no brainer (like $22.00), but of course there is shipping of about $25. Still pretty cheap overall and he "guarantees it to work", but I doubt he would refund all the shipping back and forth sooo really the guarantee would not be help.

Oh, BTW, I have e-mailed the station twice and left two messages on VM just asking if they could check the PSIP and never heard back.

I can't find anything else less then about $180 + tax and/or shipping and that was for refurbished.

 

[riffjim4069]

IMO, any ACTIVE box with v7.26 or v7.37 should work...but you're still rolling the dice. I'm surprised more people in the Dallas/Ft Worth area aren't using the VOOM STB. Also, this is a moot point if you decide to get a Dish 811 or 942.