Volume unequalized on 622

[whatchel1]

NO

Same problem plus, with my 722K, the bedroom TV is hooked up via RF only.
I have to turn the TV volume up all the way. I was using a 3900 and you could adjust the volume on it or the TV but can't seem to raise the 722K vol. Same on my main A/V system. For a DVD volume = 50 For FM volume = 50 For HBO HD I have to crank the volume up to 70 on my Sony A/V unit. And the SD appears to have higher volume than HD. Is there no service menu on the 722K you can get to to raise the volume? I normally leave the guide on HD only so I don't get blown away when I hit SD.

Have you not read the thread? There is nothing built into any of the sat receivers to do this. It is way to expensive to include it into a sat receiver.

 

[johnwadams]

Have you not read the thread? There is nothing built into any of the sat receivers to do this. It is way to expensive to include it into a sat receiver.

Expensive??????

I have read the thread.

Have you?

Volume controls were built into the 2700 and the 3900 and probably some other receivers. You could set the remote where it would adjust the volume of the receiver or your TV. Some people are talking about the level of the audio out and not automatic loudness control. My post stated that on TV2, I have to turn the TV volume up full just to have normal audio. Prior to the 722k, I only had to turn it up 1/2 way. Same with the optical audio out. I have a mid line Sony STR A/V receiver and "50" is ok for everything except the 722k. Then the volume has to be set at "70". When a 3900 was hooked up to it, the "50" was ok for it as long as the audio out on the 3900 was set wide open.
Are the 211's, the 622's and the 722's a giant step backwards as far as audio?

 

[whatchel1]

Not the subject of thread

Expensive??????

I have read the thread.

Have you?

Volume controls were built into the 2700 and the 3900 and probably some other receivers. You could set the remote where it would adjust the volume of the receiver or your TV. Some people are talking about the level of the audio out and not automatic loudness control. My post stated that on TV2, I have to turn the TV volume up full just to have normal audio. Prior to the 722k, I only had to turn it up 1/2 way. Same with the optical audio out. I have a mid line Sony STR A/V receiver and "50" is ok for everything except the 722k. Then the volume has to be set at "70". When a 3900 was hooked up to it, the "50" was ok for it as long as the audio out on the 3900 was set wide open.
Are the 211's, the 622's and the 722's a giant step backwards as far as audio?

Both of the units you listed are SD ONLY. The problem is the difference in SD & HD volumes which can't be controlled by a simple volume adjustment control. The problem is the difference in dynamic range between SD & HD signals that has to be done with a comp/limiter. Since I explained this earlier in the thread of course I have read and replied in this thread before.

 

[johnwadams]

Apparently i should have just started a new thread.
Sorry for not doing that.
But, why was there a volume control on the older units and not the newer units?
How do you access the service menu? Surely there is one.
I need to raise the volume on my HD broadcasts off HBO and Showtime.
I don't care about SD or commercials on TV1. But the volume is still lower than normal on SD on tv2..
I had my A/V rcvr wide open tonight to watch a movie on Showtime. Something is wrong some where and I can't believe someone here doesn't have an answer.

 

[whatchel1]

Entirely different

Apparently i should have just started a new thread.
Sorry for not doing that.
But, why was there a volume control on the older units and not the newer units?
How do you access the service menu? Surely there is one.
I need to raise the volume on my HD broadcasts off HBO and Showtime.
I don't care about SD or commercials on TV1. But the volume is still lower than normal on SD on tv2..
I had my A/V rcvr wide open tonight to watch a movie on Showtime. Something is wrong some where and I can't believe someone here doesn't have an answer.

That is a totally different problem.

 

[cparker]

I'm finding a lot of the differential between various programs, whether on an HD channel or an SD channel, is the difference between various Dolby encodings.

Example:
watching an HD channel, volume satisfactory.
Commercial comes on and I see a new audio decode message on my AV receiver. My AV receiver is set to auto-decode. When it switches from Dolby 3/2 to Dolby 2/0, the volume goes up. When it switches back, the volume goes down.

Does the satellite receiver know what the audio encoding is?
I would think it would have to know so that it could be decoded correctly. If that's the case, it would seem somewhat trivial to program a setup option such that the user can tell the satellite receiver how to treat the various different audio in terms of volume differential relationships.

 

[highdefjeff]

I'm finding a lot of the differential between various programs, whether on an HD channel or an SD channel, is the difference between various Dolby encodings. (Partially.)

Example:
watching an HD channel, volume satisfactory.
Commercial comes on and I see a new audio decode message on my AV receiver. My AV receiver is set to auto-decode. When it switches from Dolby 3/2 to Dolby 2/0, the volume goes up. When it switches back, the volume goes down. (You are on the right track...)

Does the satellite receiver know what the audio encoding is? (Yes. The decoder in the receiver decodes all the information, both audio and video.)
I would think it would have to know so that it could be decoded correctly. If that's the case, it would seem somewhat trivial to program a setup option such that the user can tell the satellite receiver how to treat the various different audio in terms of volume differential relationships.

Does your AV receiver do 5.1?

 

[highdefjeff]

It's Highdefjeff spouting his incorrect understanding of the problem. I have a .9 meter dish peaked on 129 and it makes no difference in volume levels between SD & HD channels. I at present have a dish 500 peaked on 110 & 119 makes no difference. I'm about to install a .8 meter dish for 118.8/119 and a dish 500 w/single feed adapter for 110. If each feed is peaked on a sat it will be the best signal but above a certain threshold it only makes only a difference for rain fade. It will not affect volume levels of sound or the PQ it just gives you a margin before loss of signal. (Correct, when "above a certain threshold")

But I'm not talking about people with the signals "above a certain threshold", I'm talking about signals that are NOT above a "certain threshold".

Since you claim an engineering degree, perhaps you could tell us what the "certain threshold" value is, so that the world might know?

 

[Jim S.]

I've been giving you the benefit of the doubt on picture quality (although I'm extremely skeptical), but how can you possibly relate signal strength to the volume, rather than the fidelity, of an audio signal?!

Welcome to my ignore list. Congratulations, you're the first one. James Lloyd almost made it, but I think he gave up.

 

[cparker]

Does your AV receiver do 5.1?

yes it does 5.1

 

[atvman]

I have noticed this audio problem with my 622 only in the last month. I did move the 622 to a Sony LCD that has a steady sound setting, but the setting on the TV does not help.

 

[whatchel1]

No time

But I'm not talking about people with the signals "above a certain threshold", I'm talking about signals that are NOT above a "certain threshold".

Since you claim an engineering degree, perhaps you could tell us what the "certain threshold" value is, so that the world might know?

I've had no time to answer this today but will do a quick reply before bed. I don't have the equipment to give you an exact figure for the threshold of a dish net HD receiver. Maybe Digiblur or Iceburg do all I have is the signal strength meter built into my 722k. The unit seems to be able to lock and hold just fine with a signal as low as in the 20's. I would never want to have signal that low since probable a wispy cloud would kill the signal then. So I would think that if one is getting a signal in the 40's then there is going to be robust enough to stand all but heavy rain. I have signals in the upper 50's & 60's so have never lost signal for more than a few seconds. Even with signal levels this high the audio is not going to be balanced between SD & HD due to the fact that both have much different dynamic ranges. And I don't claim to have a degree in broadcast engineering I DO have one. Since then I now do 95% of all the IT at the TV station where I work. Not only that I'm a member in good standing in the Society of Broadcast Engineers and have passed the test for the Certified Broadcast Technologist qualifications. Now do you have anything that qualifies you in a technical area?

 

[catnap1972]

I resorted to using the AI sound on my (Panasonic) TV. Seems to keep the maximum volume from getting out of control but you can hear the level drifting up and down somewhat during a show.

 

[johnwadams]

RE: "Even with signal levels this high the audio is not going to be balance between SD & HD due to the fact that both have much different dynamic ranges."

I don't agree with most of this. I used a SA 8300 HD-DVR from Comcast for over 3 years. Optical audio in to Sony A/V, RGB to Panasonic projector. There was never any noticeable audio changes like described in this thread. Yes, there was a slight difference between Dolby 2.0 and Dolby 5.1, but most of it was probably more info going to the rear speakers and a very minor difference in dynamic range but not enough to make you change the volume. The same for SD. Commercials were slightly louder but, again not enough to make you change the volume. Same A/V equip, but now a 722k rcvr. Now audio level is all over the place, with the 5.1 so low I sometimes have to crank the volume to max. And when the credits roll, you better turn the volume down. The shift back to 2.0 will blow you out of the room. Exact same hookup (Optical audio in to Sony A/V). And, dynamic range compression off. Plus, my Sony upconverting player sends the same level of audio to the A/V rcvr that the Comcast box did. 5.1 off DVD's = "50" on Sony. "75" is max vol. Never had to use "75" till I got the 722k.

 

[Peter Parker]

You're the first person I've seen think that the HD channel audio is louder than the SD.

Every complaint I've seen has been that the SD is louder.

I too experience louder SD than HD.

 

[whatchel1]

Did you set D-R

RE: "Even with signal levels this high the audio is not going to be balance between SD & HD due to the fact that both have much different dynamic ranges."

I don't agree with most of this. I used a SA 8300 HD-DVR from Comcast for over 3 years. Optical audio in to Sony A/V, RGB to Panasonic projector. There was never any noticeable audio changes like described in this thread. Yes, there was a slight difference between Dolby 2.0 and Dolby 5.1, but most of it was probably more info going to the rear speakers and a very minor difference in dynamic range but not enough to make you change the volume. The same for SD. Commercials were slightly louder but, again not enough to make you change the volume. Same A/V equip, but now a 722k rcvr. Now audio level is all over the place, with the 5.1 so low I sometimes have to crank the volume to max. And when the credits roll, you better turn the volume down. The shift back to 2.0 will blow you out of the room. Exact same hookup (Optical audio in to Sony A/V). And, dynamic range compression off. Plus, my Sony upconverting player sends the same level of audio to the A/V rcvr that the Comcast box did. 5.1 off DVD's = "50" on Sony. "75" is max vol. Never had to use "75" till I got the 722k.

When set up the dynamic range setting on the box? There are three. It may be that is set as default to min unless you go into the menus and change it. Here is the info about the 3 ranges that can be set on the unit.
Audio Range Settings. Audio Range options are for Dolby Digital output signals and refer to digital "Dynamic Range".

* Wide Dynamic Range will render audio that will go from faintest audio level of a whisper at an extremely low level to thundering boom at ear-shattering levels giving great impact to action movies, but calls for good audio setup to properly hear normal dialog without blasting speakers during loud scenes.
* Narrow Dynamic Range keeps lower volumes at higher level while muting higher level sounds to lower level. Whispered dialog is not much quieter than explosion and all sound levels are "Narrowed" to a certain level.
* Normal Dynamic Range basically splits difference.

These are not specific numbers, but think of it something like this when setting the volume level to about 33% for same scene. Using Narrow Dynamic Range, whisper might be 45db and explosion 85db. Using Wide Dynamic Range setting, whisper might now be 15db and explosion 105db.

My guess is that the unit comes set to the "normal range" and if you want full dynamic or wide that has to be done by the user after the install. Yes SA put some type of comp limiter in the unit. It is possible to put one into an HD DVR but most companys don't want to spend the extra money to do so.

 

[johnwadams]

When set up the dynamic range setting on the box? There are three. It may be that is set as default to min unless you go into the menus and change it. Here is the info about the 3 ranges that can be set on the unit.
Audio Range Settings. Audio Range options are for Dolby Digital output signals and refer to digital "Dynamic Range".


These are not specific numbers, but think of it something like this when setting the volume level to about 33% for same scene. Using Narrow Dynamic Range, whisper might be 45db and explosion 85db. Using Wide Dynamic Range setting, whisper might now be 15db and explosion 105db.

My guess is that the unit comes set to the "normal range" and if you want full dynamic or wide that has to be done by the user after the install. Yes SA put some type of comp limiter in the unit. It is possible to put one into an HD DVR but most companys don't want to spend the extra money to do so.

I have not checked for a Dynamic Range setting on the 722k. To be honest, I did not know there was one on the 722k. Unless I missed it, you are the first to mention that on this thread. Since this thread started out with the 622, is there an adjustment on it also? This may solve the problem for a number of people that posted to this thread.
THANKS!

 

[whatchel1]

No

I have not checked for a Dynamic Range setting on the 722k. To be honest, I did not know there was one on the 722k. Unless I missed it, you are the first to mention that on this thread. Since this thread started out with the 622, is there an adjustment on it also? This may solve the problem for a number of people that posted to this thread.
THANKS!

No there isn't one on the E* HD DVR's that what this thread was pretty much started about. Those that use an A/V home theater receiver may have one built into it. E* doesn't do anything on the audio but pass thru what is supplied by the provider. What I posted about D-R was related to the cable unit that the guy had on comcrap. It does have a D_R adj.

 

[highdefjeff]

Providers set the level they want and E* just passes it thru. To do what you are wanting would take a comp/limiter (compressor & limiter) that would have to follow the signal. This would also change the entire dynamics of programming that is being sent thru. Some A/V receivers have a limiter built in that can be set but I don't know of any that will completely balance out like you are wanting. Let's see now to add what you are asking for would only add around $500 to what the DVR cost to build so I doubt it is gonna happen.

Why wouldn't an engineer be aware of Dolby Volume? You can go here and see some new receivers and HDTV that have constant volume due to Dolby's new Dolby Volume product. When you go to this link, bear in mind that Dolby is acting like they're the solution, but I think that they are the cause as well.

Dolby - Volume Leveling Technology ? Dolby Volume

Now the next question I would ask would be...why wouldn't broadcast engineers tell us about the relatively low cost solutions available to broadcasters? For example, Broadcast Engineering's sponsor for the Audio processing webinar (still archived for those who would like to see it)...

Event Lobby (EVENT: 152627)

...was Linear Acoustics and the product they're selling is loudness controllers for broadcasters starting at $6000. I would suggest that station managers or engineers check into this: Bad Audio Hurts Ratings

Why would the engineers not tell us about Dolby and AC-3 Dialnorm? Here is a very interesting explanation of Dolby's involvement in the current volume woes and the answer to whether or not, sound VOLUME, yes, even volume could vary in a digital system. From page two of the following link:

"Bit Stream Information (BSI)
The bit stream information section of the AC-3 or "dolby digital" stream contains a series of data bits aligned to indicate information or parameters regarding the encoding of the audio program. The information is used by the decoder and audio reproduction system to properly decode and reproduce the audio." http://www.sencore.com/uploads/files/MeasDialogLAeq.pdf

No matter whether you believe it or not, all information needed for both video and audio - including how loud - comes in the digital bit stream. In the presence of a corrupted bitstream (which can be caused by degredation of signal - low signal strength, poor connections, etc) it depends on what bits are corrupted as to how it plays out in your system. If video info is corrupt, then you get video artifacts and corruption. If the audio info is corrupt, you get either lip sync issues, no audio or low audio - depending on which bits are corrupted.

 

[highdefjeff]

And here is understanding Dialnorm:

DTV Audio: Understanding Dialnorm

And here is managing DTV Loudness with Dialnorm:

Managing DTV LOUDNESS with dialnorm