Speaker Auditioning - some observations

[Ilya]

I always suggest that the only right way of choosing speakers is auditioning them! Specs, product reviews, recommendations from friends, discussions on the Internet can be helpful to some extent in the initial selection of candidates, but you should only trust your own ears when making the purchasing decision.

Well, time has come for me to get a new 7.1 speaker set for my dedicated (man-cave) home theater. It's been a long time since I shopped for speakers, so I decided to take time and to visit as many showrooms as possible. So, in the past month I've spent more than 20 hours listening to various speakers and the results are interesting and somewhat unexpected. Here are some of my observations:

1. The number of specialized Audio/Video stores (where you can audition speakers) has noticeably reduced in the past years. And those that remain seem to be struggling to survive. At the same time I was surprised to see high-end speaker brands at stores like Magnolia/Best Buy.

2. Another consequence of the crisis: many high-end speaker companies are now coming out with "budget" product lines, making high-quality sound more affordable. As a result, there is a tough competition in the price range I am looking at (under $3000 a pair).

3. Initially I was hoping to stay under $2000 for a pair of floor-standing fronts, but after listening to many speakers from various manufacturers (B&W, Paradigm, Definitive Technology, KEF, Klipsch, Totem, PSB, GoldenEar), I decided to increase the budget. I came to the conclusion that there is a very significant difference between $2000 speakers an $3000 speakers. For many high-end speaker manufacturers, this price point is where they jump from their entry-level line to a mid-level line.

4. How the speakers sound significantly depends on the room size and acoustics, equipment used and other factors. It is very difficult to compare speakers unless they are in the same room. Fortunately, I was able to do a side-by-side comparison of several brands. Conditions are less than ideal when there are too many speakers in the same room. Still, it is very helpful to be able to switch back and forth between the speakers. What I discovered is that even in the same price range (of under $3000/pair) speakers from different manufacturers sounded very differently! I didn't expect that the difference would be so pronounced!

5. Another unexpected result: my impression about speakers has been changing from one auditioning to another. For example, I was initially very impressed by B&W speakers (sounded very clean and precise) and wasn't too impressed by Paradigm (sounded rather soft). However, after several sessions and many hours spent listening to these speakers, I started to appreciate Paradigm speakers more and more, while B&W went the other way. By doing A/B comparison, I realized how much reacher Paradigm speakers sound (particularly in the midrange) compared to B&W or even Definitive Technology Mythos (to my ears, anyway).

6. A not so unexpected result: some speakers do well with some types of music, but struggle with others; some are better for music, others are mostly for movies. Very few speakers can do well all of the above. So it is very important to bring a variety of familiar music and movies.

7. For me, the center speaker is extremely important for home theater. And I do prefer to have three front speakers from the same line of the same manufacturer (timbre matched). While some of the front speakers that I listened to sounded great, their matching center speaker wasn't good enough. For example, GoldenEar Triton are fantastic speakers, but the center speaker offered by this company is a joke!

8. Although I mostly listened to full-range floor standing speakers, I found that most of them could use some help from a sub, even for music. Selecting a good sub that would not only shake walls, but seamlessly blend with music is not an easy task, though it's probably a topic for a separate thread.

9. Perhaps my most important observation, is that no speakers are perfect. And I suspect the same is true regardless of the price. Each brand and type has its strong points and also its shortcomings and limitations. The trick is to decide which limitations you can live with! And that, of course, is very subjective!

Anyway, these are some of my observations. My quest continues...

 

[teachsac]

Very good write-up. BB carries the lowest end Bowers'Wilkins CM series. I cannot stand the sound of them, either. I was listening to them one day hooked up to a Denon 4520 and they sounded shrill. Have you looked at the 600 series and 800 series? Much better sounding, and then there's the price tag to go along with it.

I have various speakers and speaker types. For the HT I am using MK S150's. Good balance for HT and music. I have Klipsch THX 5.1's for the game room with a pair of Axioms for the rear surrounds. I am using Klipsch bookshelf RB75's with an RC7, and another pair of Axioms for the surrounds. Love the Klipsch for acoustic music and general HT use. Bedroom, I'm using BG Radia Z-5's. Love them for both music and movies/TV.

While many people say all amps sound the same, that has not been my experience. I also try my speakers with the amps I will be using.

Subs really could be here. It's improtant to select the correct size to the speakers. You don't want a 15" HSU/Rythmik/etc. with energy take 5 speakers just like you wouldn't want an 8"/10" sub with Floorstanding Klipsch/BW 800 series, etc. I selected the Sunfire HRS-12s to go with the MKs because of the 5.25" woofers.

Keep us updated.

S~

 

[Ilya]

BB carries the lowest end Bowers'Wilkins CM series. I cannot stand the sound of them, either. I was listening to them one day hooked up to a Denon 4520 and they sounded shrill. Have you looked at the 600 series and 800 series? Much better sounding, and then there's the price tag to go along with it.

Actually, as I understand, B&W 600 series is their entry-level line. 683's are under $1500 a pair. CM is a step-up line. (I listened to CM8 and CM9: under $3000 a pair). The 800 ("Diamond") series is the high end: way out of my budget! I don't even want to listen to speakers in that price range!

 

[raoul5788]

Good write up Ilya. Your points are all well taken and have been true for a long time. It's been a while since I have shopped for speakers and had forgotten many of them. I have DT BP2006s in all four corners and a 2300 for the center channel so that should tell you how long it's been! The one update is the price point where things go from good to better. It's going up all of the time, isn't it! BTW, have you considered Vandersteens or Thiels?

 

[Ilya]

BTW, have you considered Vandersteens or Thiels?

Haven't seen Thiel. Vandersteen I do remember very well from way back. My impression back then was that they are excellent for classical and acoustical music, but not so much for hard rock or action movies. Most importantly, they require a bigger room due to their open design. In my case, I have a relatively small room with a big 110" screen that doesn't leave much space on the sides: front speakers will have to be placed rather close to side walls. Because of that, I have not even looked at many speakers that require more space either because of their open design or because of their size (like Magnepans).

 

[Ilya]

TIP: Contact the speaker manufacturer to arrange the auditioning

Here is a good tip I learned recently: if you can't find the speakers you are looking for at a local dealer, contact the speaker manufacturers! See if they can arrange something for you.

In my case, I wanted to check out the R-series speakers from KEF (R500 or R700). These speakers are well known in Europe, but are less known here in the US. I found a local KEF dealer, but that store only had a less expensive Q-series and a much more expensive Reference series. I couldn't find any dealer within 200 miles that would have the R-series on display. So I contacted KEF directly and they quickly agreed to ship R700 speakers (with a matching center speaker and a sub) to a local dealer just for my auditioning! Wow! That's a great customer service!

 

[navychop]

Be grateful you HAVE a local dealer of higher quality AV equipment. The last one in this area that I know of, Meyer-Emcor, went under. Very sad day. They showed me that even with what I regard as way less than perfect hearing, I could tell the difference. I bought a 7.1 system from them. WELL worth the money.

 

[Ilya]

I was at a conference in Washington DC earlier this month and I thought I would find a lot of local Audio/Video dealers there. To my surprise there weren't too many. And those that I did find, had a warning on their websites essentially stating that visitors from other states are not welcome. So, I didn't go to any of them...

 

[raoul5788]

They didn't want out of state customers? What kind of crap is that? Who were they?

 

[raoul5788]

Here is a good tip I learned recently: if you can't find the speakers you are looking for at a local dealer, contact the speaker manufacturers! See if they can arrange something for you.

In my case, I wanted to check out the R-series speakers from KEF (R500 or R700). These speakers are well known in Europe, but are less known here in the US. I found a local KEF dealer, but that store only had a less expensive Q-series and a much more expensive Reference series. I couldn't find any dealer within 200 miles that would have the R-series on display. So I contacted KEF directly and they quickly agreed to ship R700 speakers (with a matching center speaker and a sub) to a local dealer just for my auditioning! Wow! That's a great customer service!

That is great service! It could certainly create a tipping point if every thing else was basically equal.

 

[mike123abc]

I have 3 sets of B&W speakers. I have been very pleased with their sound. Yes they are expensive (800 series), but they sure sound good.

The only advice I can give a speaker buyer is to not listen to anything out of your price range. If you do not listen to them you never know what you are missing.

 

[Ilya]

They didn't want out of state customers? What kind of crap is that? Who were they?

As I understand they are just not authorized to ship to other states (outside their sales territory).

 

[Ilya]

I have 3 sets of B&W speakers. I have been very pleased with their sound. Yes they are expensive (800 series), but they sure sound good.

The 800 series are some very nice speakers!

The only advice I can give a speaker buyer is to not listen to anything out of your price range. If you do not listen to them you never know what you are missing.

That's exactly my strategy!
I try to stay away from speakers that I can't afford or that wouldn't work for me for any other reason.
I slipped once: listened to a $3500 MartinLogan subwoofer, was curious how it would sound.
The opening heartbeat of the Dark Side of the Moon almost caused me a heart attack!
That heart was beating inside my chest!

 

[jayn_j]

Ilya said earlier that no listening room is going to sound like your room at home, and he's right. Higher end shops will often let you take a set home you are serious about and audition them. At the very least, make sure the dealer has a good return policy, with the understanding that you may try something else. I once helped a friend with speaker purchases from ListenUP! in Boulder, CO. At one point, he had three complete sets of mid priced speakers on loan at once. He was quite picky about his choice (typical engineer), but the end result was stunning. Further, the ones he eventually went with were not in his top three choices in the store.

 

[Ilya]

I've done that in the past with various audio components. I would have a couple of loaners at my house at once and would compare them in my home environment. It was extremely helpful: things that sounded great in the showroom would not work in my room and vice versa.

Unfortunately times have changed. All A/V stores I talked to recently refuse to offer any loaners (especially speakers) and most now require 15% restocking fee for any returns. I guess the profit margins are too thin these days. I think Best Buys' Magnolia still offers full money-back on returns, but I am not positive.

 

[jayn_j]

Well that's unfortunate. If you are serious about spending $3k this week, there should be some give and take. That really is the high end dealer's only big advantage. I can see requiring a hefty deposit to avoid the audition/return/buy online scenario, but at the same time it floors me that they are asking the customer to guess how the speaker will sound in their house.

Most listening rooms I have been in are pretty 'dead'. Heavy carpeting. Carpeting on the walls and acoustic ceilings. That means no reflections and that is going to steer you toward speakers that have some color. That same speaker will sound overly bright in a typical family room.

 

[raoul5788]

As I understand they are just not authorized to ship to other states (outside their sales territory).

That makes sense, but what about someone that wants something that's in stock?

 

[Ilya]

Well that's unfortunate. If you are serious about spending $3k this week, there should be some give and take. That really is the high end dealer's only big advantage. I can see requiring a hefty deposit to avoid the audition/return/buy online scenario, but at the same time it floors me that they are asking the customer to guess how the speaker will sound in their house.

I agree! Especially when it's more like $7K (for the entire 7.1 set)

 

[Ilya]

That makes sense, but what about someone that wants something that's in stock?

Then no problem!

 

[John Kotches]

Ilya:

I think your OP was excellent, but there are a couple of things to point out that I disagree with.

Bullet point 6 (Music vs. Movies):
Either a speaker accurately reproduces the input or it doesn't. There should be no distinction that a speaker is good for music or good for movies. It should do both very very well.


Bullet Point 7 (identical vs. "timbre matched"):
I think "timbre matched" is a myth. As soon as you change the shape of the cabinet, especially the enclosure volumes and (as often occurs) going to an MTM configuration vs single drivers you lose all hope of timbre match.

The only way to get a seamless presentation, is with 3 identical speakers across the front, which is what you are working towards

Bullet point 8 (subs with "Full Range" floorstanders):
Unless your "Full Range" floorstander is capable of very significant output Below 35Hz it is going to require a subwoofer for movies. There are very few floorstanders that qualify and you won't find them in the $2-3K price range you are looking at.

That's not a criticism of your price point, or the speakers that are available at that price. The extreme low-end requires lots of power and lots of excursion, generally with larger drivers than are practically squeezed into even a typical floorstander footprint. Yes multiple "smaller" drivers can help. Smaller in this context are 8" give or take. While multiple drivers have an effectively larger surface area, they also have greater distortion as you go down in frequency and that doesn't get diminished with multiple drivers.

You're free to disagree with me, it's just my opinion on all this anyway