Speaker Auditioning - some observations

[jayn_j]

With all due respect, John (and that's a lot of respect) I would tend to agree with Ilya on point 6. What you say makes sense for high end speakers, but at the price point most of us are living at, compromises need to be made. If you are building a home theater to view movies, your first goal needs to be clear dialog. There are a bunch of factors outside of the speakers that affect this. For example, movie soundtracks have been mixed for theater viewing, and that generally translates to changing the equalization. This compensation all too often remains in the home video mix and you need to compensate. Second, as we age, our hearing develops peaks and also drops off at the high end. I know that my 63 year old ears can't hear much above 10kHz these days, so why waste a lot of power sending stuff out up there? The idea about focusing in clear and accurate in the normal vocal range makes sense, assuming that the rest is still at reasonable levels.

Bullet point 7: The point is well taken, but with the typical front projector, this will require investing in a false wall and AT screen. That will raise the budget by several thousand dollars as the perforated vinyl screens have unacceptable loss and coloration. A dedicated center of the same series and make is not a perfect solution, but it may very well be a practical compromise when a budget is considered.

Agree totally on the sub. I used to think my full range Klipsch's with the 10" woofer were sufficient. Boy, was i wrong.

 

[Ilya]

Thanks for your comments John! Greatly appreciated!
There isn't much disagreement here really! On your particular points:

Bullet point 6 (Music vs. Movies):
Either a speaker accurately reproduces the input or it doesn't. There should be no distinction that a speaker is good for music or good for movies. It should do both very very well.

Well, I agree! In the ideal world there should be no difference between any speakers!
They should all just accurately reproduce the sound and that's all. I wish I lived in that ideal world!

Bullet Point 7 (identical vs. "timbre matched"):
I think "timbre matched" is a myth. As soon as you change the shape of the cabinet, especially the enclosure volumes and (as often occurs) going to an MTM configuration vs single drivers you lose all hope of timbre match.
The only way to get a seamless presentation, is with 3 identical speakers across the front, which is what you are working towards

As jayn_j correctly pointed out it's not always practical to have identical speakers in a home theater. However, I did listen to some Heritage speakers from Klipsch exactly with this idea in mind! They are big, but not tall and would easily fit below the screen.

The problem I noticed during my recent auditioning sessions with some of the center speakers, wasn't actually the timbre matching - it was the clarity of the dialog. The two conclusions I personally came to:
1. I need to invest in a bigger center speaker.
2. I need to put it on a solid stand, not on a shelf!

Bullet point 8 (subs with "Full Range" floorstanders):
Unless your "Full Range" floorstander is capable of very significant output Below 35Hz it is going to require a subwoofer for movies. There are very few floorstanders that qualify and you won't find them in the $2-3K price range you are looking at.

Well, you just confirmed my observation!
Although some floorstanders went deeper than others, none of the speakers I listened to would be sufficient for music without a sub. My hope was that I would only use the sub for movies and turn it off for music. Nope, it's not going to work that way...

 

[John Kotches]

Jay:
We really needed to have more discussions like this. I think they help think about things

On bp6 aka music vs movies:
If you get the midrange right, you will probably do well for both. As first as wasting energy in the last octave, there isn't much there. At just under 50 I'm still good to slide 15k. It's mostly pressure i sense rather than a tone though.

On bp7, timbre matching:
There are DIY solutions and you can pick up quality stuff for a few hundred dollars from Seymour AV. Once you go to AT and matching speakers you can't go back

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 2 using Tapatalk 2.x

 

[jayn_j]

Well, you just confirmed my observation!
Although some floorstanders went deeper than others, none of the speakers I listened too would be sufficient for music without a sub. My hope was that I would only use the sub for movies and turn it off for music. Nope, it's not going to work that way...

And you still need to be careful, as there are subs and there are subs. I am a Velodyne owner, and am aware that they produce several different models at the same price point, but aimed at different applications. For example, one concerns itself with smooth blending with music speakers while others are aimed at producing loud and clear HT effects without distortion. The difference is in peak level handling and low level reproduction. Again, ideally it shouldn't matter, but when you are trying to cram the sub into a reasonable size box you need to make compromises. Best sub I ever heard was a pair of tuned folded horns a friend constructed. Even folded they were 14' long and had an opening 6' square. But they sure sounded nice.

 

[Ilya]

For example, one concerns itself with smooth blending with music speakers while others are aimed at producing loud and clear HT effects without distortion. The difference is in peak level handling and low level reproduction.

I am facing that dilemma right now. Initially my plan was to go with a smaller sealed 10" or even 8" sub: the room is rather small and I do prefer a faster, more tight bass and seamless blending with music. Not necessarily looking for any earthquakes. What I observed however, is that those smaller subs go into distortion too easily. And that's unacceptable for me. After listening to several subs I think I will go with a bigger 12" sub and will trade some quickness and precision for a more confident distortion-free performance. Once again, it's a compromise!

By the way, which Velodyne do you have?

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[jayn_j]

An older mid-line unit SPL-1200
http://www.velodyne.com/pdf/spl/spl-ultra_series_datasheet.pdf

But this is in my theater, not a music room.

 

[John Kotches]

I use a pair of DD-15s in my theater.



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[teachsac]

pair of Sunfire HRS 12's in the theater. They dig very low.

S~

 

[Ilya]

Well, after spending many hours in Audio/Video show rooms and listening to many good speakers in my price range, I finally decided to go with Paradigm Reference Studio line for my home theater. This wasn't an obvious choice, initially these speakers were not at the top of my list. But after listening to them for many hours under various conditions and after doing thorough A/B comparison with several other speaker brands I decided that these speakers would work best for me. This once again re-confirms the importance of the auditioning process when selecting speakers.

I am going to start a separate thread about the Paradigm speakers, leaving this thread to just general observations.

 

[Ilya]

Just wanted to add one significant observation to the above discussion. The importance of the room acoustics! Particularly for a home theater.
After installing my new speakers I spent significant time (and money) fine-tuning the room: installed a door to seal off the room, purchased and installed acoustic panels and bass traps. What a difference that made to my home theater! In my opinion, a few hundred dollars spent on acoustic treatment have a much more noticeable effect than the same money added to the speaker budget!

So, an important tip: when you budget for a new speaker system, don't forget about the acoustic treatment for your room! It can make a huge difference!