Recommended video card + sat card

[mark_calgary]

For the past month I've been looking into what would be needed to add a PC based sat receiver to my satellite system to allow me to view 4:2:2 feeds as I am a sports wild feed addict (the only thing I really watch on TV these days). I have found some information on other forums (which shall be nameless) but they are so full of misinformation and criminals I thought I might get an opinion from someone here where the quality of the information is so much higher.

I have an old PC I will be dedicating to the task (1.7G P4) and will be purchasing a barebones PCI sat card for it soon, likely a Twinhan as it seems to enjoy good support from 3rd party software but that is not set in stone. I can't decide between the models so would value any opinion on them but my bigger problem will be choosing where to buy it (I am in Calgary, Canada) and feel that I paid a reasonable price.

The main issue I have, though, is that the video card on the PC will need to be replaced with something that can drive the inputs on my TV (DVI, or Component, or S-video) as it is an old VGA only Nvidia Geforce2. For future proofing I think the card will need to support HDTV resolutions (I know the PC is currently too slow for HDTV decoding so no need to point that out) and likely DVI. My understanding of some of the info I have read is that ATI cards (and likely Nvidia) do have acceleration hardware that can be used to speed up some parts of the MPEG decoding algorithm. So what would be recommended as a minimum video card to support these requirements?

As always one doesn't want to spend too much money.

Any and all opinions are appreciated.

- Greetings to all from a very soggy part of the world (crazy as it may be!). -

Mark

 

[CharredPC]

I can give you some personal experience on the Twinhan cards

First off, good choice in asking for advice here. I'm sure there's other very experienced, helpful people on other websites/forums... but good luck finding them amidst the inevitable flaming, rants, and childish insulting
I use a Twinhan 102g. This is the newest version of the Twinhan DVB card series, and while it isn't all that different from the previous versions, it adresses some overheating issues that earlier versions are prone to. I got mine off ebay in a package deal (the card with a satellite meter/finder, inline amp, and a 4-way diseqc switch).

Overall, the card performs pretty well. Be prepared for the numbers to be lower than other cards/receivers. This doesn't mean it's actually receiving poorly, it's just stingy on the numbers I can watch a smooth picture on a mere 29-31% Quality, and 57-65% Quality is sort of mid-range signal. The highest I've ever gotten is 90% Quality on my 76cm Winegard. I use my card in a home theatre I built from a Sempron 2400+, an MSI KM4M-V micro ATX board, and an MSI RX9550 SE ATI videocard. I'll put up some pictures here soon now that we have this new section

Even with all the parts being pretty modern, HDTV isn't smooth enough to watch. Of course, I only have PBS HD to go by on AMC3. However, it works wonderful on all other channels. I use MyTheatre as an interface, which works wonderful with the standardly included Twinhan remote. It's also user-friendly enough for the wife to use, which was very important considering I wanted some vague backing from her in this hobby

About videocards: you'll need something beefier than a GeForce2 for video, I'd think, or else an onboard mpeg2 decoder. So you can go buy a new videocard for $40+, or you can go with a dvb card like the Nexus, which has an onboard mpeg2 decoder. This lets you use a less beefy cpu and videocard, but keep in mind the Nexus will (usually) cost more. From what I've heard, the Signal/Quality numbers on the Nexus are closer to standard STB's (set top boxes) numbers that the Twinhan line.

I've also used my Twinhan on my aging Gigabyte Radeon 9200. It performed fine, and also has DVI hookups (90% of today's- and even some older cards- now come standard with DVI plugs, with a normal PC monitor adaptor). I won't push ebay too hard, becuase if you aren't careful you can end up with junk and no recourse for remedy Of the kit I bought, the card and the inline amp still work. The meter and switch are dead. But if you're a fairly savvy shopper, get advice here first, sometimes you can nab a nice cheap deal like I did to start you off. I had hardly any money to spend going into this hobby, but spent under $200 and was watching G10 within a few weeks The wife will love it even more when I get my MicroBUD setup going, show her how to record her favorite shows onto the hard drive, and get more 'basic' network stations.

Oh, one last quick point you probably already know- with ALL dvb cards currently, there is no blind scan. As you're a "wild feed addict," be prepared to use a seperate receiver or visit here frequently to get the frequencies, then add them to your transponder lists on the PC. As soon as they make a blind scanning dvb card, I'm SO there

 

[Stefan]

One thing you might want to look at is a separate device to render your video. One such device is the Roku HD1000 photobridge. The photobridge is marketed as a device to view pictures on your HDTV in HD resolution, but one other thing it does really well is HD transport stream decoding. It can handle HD mpeg2 upto around 40Mbit/sec. I have one and I know from personal experience it can handle streams upto 35Mbit/sec. Anyway, The photobridge is a network appliance and connects to your PC over an ethernet network. The photobridge has Component and VGA outputs that you can connect to your TV. Unfortunately it doesn't have DVI. It also doesn't currently support 4:2:2 and I don't know whether there are any plans to add support for it of not.

As for cards like the Nexus that have their own hardware decoder built-in, I wouldn't recommend those. For one thing I don't think the nexus supports HD. Also, I'm not sure whether it supports 4:2:2. So basically all the decoding that is supported by these cards (4:2:0 SD) can be easily handled by just about any somewhat modern PC which makes the onboard decoder absolutely useless.

As for video cards accelerating video rendering the problem is that the software and/or codec used must be coded to take advantage of any special features a high end card might have to accelerate the process. As far as I know the only 2 software solution (and about the only cheap consumer level options period) for 4:2:2 are VLC and the elecard codec. Unless those pieces of software are specifically coded to take advantage of any advanced features a video card might have to accelerate the process then any video card with any such special feature would be totally useless or at least no better than an average mainstream video card. Anyway, if your really concerned about this decide which software your going to use and contact the developers of that software and ask them if their software will benefit significantly from any special features any of these cards may have and if so which cards do they recommend.

 

[CharredPC]

One thing you might want to look at is a separate device to render your video. One such device is the Roku HD1000 photobridge... The photobridge is a network appliance and connects to your PC over an ethernet network... Unfortunately it doesn't have DVI. It also doesn't currently support 4:2:2 and I don't know whether there are any plans to add support for it of not.

Sounds like more of a headache than an option... like recommending you buy a Coolsat to control the motor for your DVB card

As for cards like the Nexus that have their own hardware decoder built-in, I wouldn't recommend those. For one thing I don't think the nexus supports HD. Also, I'm not sure whether it supports 4:2:2. So basically all the decoding that is supported by these cards (4:2:0 SD) can be easily handled by just about any somewhat modern PC which makes the onboard decoder absolutely useless.

Do some research. Nexus cards handle 4:2:2 and HD just like the Twinhan line does. A hardware decoder certainly won't hurt, especially with a weak slightly out-of-date system as described. NO card I know of has onboard HD decoding, so steering away from a Nexus for that reason's a bit pointless.

As for video cards accelerating video rendering the problem is that the software and/or codec used must be coded to take advantage of any special features a high end card might have to accelerate the process. As far as I know the only 2 software solution (and about the only cheap consumer level options period) for 4:2:2 are VLC and the elecard codec. Unless those pieces of software are specifically coded to take advantage of any advanced features a video card might have to accelerate the process then any video card with any such special feature would be totally useless or at least no better than an average mainstream video card. Anyway, if your really concerned about this decide which software your going to use and contact the developers of that software and ask them if their software will benefit significantly from any special features any of these cards may have and if so which cards do they recommend.

That's got to be the most backwards way of going about a purchase I've ever heard, lol Sure, do some research, but do you ask the guy who sells floor mats what car goes best with them? lol...

I'm using Intervideo for my DVB decoding, and have yet to have a problem. As I stated, my video is MSI/ATI powered. My DVB card is a Twinhan 102g. It's a downright hodgepodge, and it works great. Hence my speaking up- from experience- and sharing my outlook on DVB cards. Also, if you've used any, DVB software pretty much all uses "graphs" for decoding, which are often universal, home-brewed, and/or user-tweaked. There's specific nVidia-based ones, then there's the overall general ones like what I'm using. And unless you're using some serious beta software or something specifically designed for one specific card (ie, the Skystar2's have some proprietary 3rd party software), most modern software supports nearly all DVB cards, and their clones. Heck, even ProgFinder handles the whole Twinhan line, the Skystar, Nexus, and Nova!

The basics remain: for a low-end system, I'd get an onboard decoder. I've heard very nice things about the Nexus (from somone who owns one) and they offer a few, albiet perhaps minor, benefits over the Twinhan line. Taking the load off your cpu with a hardware decoder is never a BAD thing, even if it isn't occuring 100% of the time. Having the S/Q numbers match closer to a STB isn't necessary, but I speak from experience when I say that having 82% quality on 3ABN is just weird! Also, quite honestly, the Twinhan line is the Geo Metro line of DVB cars; they work, they're cheap, but for a few bucks more... well, you get what you pay for. It's a nice starter card, but Mark sounds like he's being smart and trying to plan for the future. I was considering an upgrade to a Nexus myself, but have decided I can't justify the Twinhan not being used, since I purchased it not all that long ago. I already have a perfectly good Universal LNB getting dusty here from my last upgrade, lol I'm not saying don't get a Twinhan. Ebay has them dirt cheap, brand new, often with some extra bits included. If the price is similar enough (was last I looked) get a 102g, though. Might as well get the latest version

And if you want, Mark, just purchase a DVB card and try it in your existing system. It may work fine. If not, THEN start the upgrading. No sense in tossing away money for fear things MIGHT not work, right?
I have several older machines here (600Mhz - 2Ghz); if I get the time I'll do a comprensive testing of my Twinhan and report what the actual minimum cpu/videocard requirements are.

 

[Cascade]

Some useful information in the above posts.

FWIW here's my opinion.
A Geforce2 isn't enough to decode HD, it'll decode 4:2:2 and MPEG2 fine (I used one up until 2 weeks ago)
The Nexus/SkyStar1 cards do have an onboard hardware MPEG2 decoder along with video/audio out via composite however it won't output HD or 4:2:2 unless you switch to software mode.
nVidia cards have the edge on decoding HD over ATI.

More software has been written with the SkyStar1/Nexus cards in mind than any other card, there have been many revisions of the card however they're practically all compatible.
The TwinHan cards are fine for a budget user, you may want to look at alternatives before you make your choice, I don't own a TwinHan and I'm going by what I've been told by people who use them about how they perform.
The SkyStar2 cards are basically Nexus/SS1 minus the hardware decoder.

Stefan, paying $300 for an external decoder just for 1 HD channel is overkill, if you already have the box for other purposes it's not so much of an expense.
$300 toward a graphics card or CPU upgrade will make more sense in the long run as it's not a one-trick-pony or locked in technology.

The Twinhan, Skystar or Nexus cards are all capable cards to do what you want.
If 4:2:2 is your main interest go for the Twinhan or Skystar2, they both have great software support but are entirely codec dependant.
As mentioned previously, the Skystar1/Nexus can easily morph into a software-based card however you have the option of the hardware decoder and TV out if you need it.

 

[Wayn23]

For decoding 4:2:0 SD you can use hardware cards like Sigma Designs
Netsream 2000 Or X-card, X-card can decode divx and mpeg 4 h.263 also
if you want to transcode mpeg2 files to mpeg 4 to save space on the Hard Drive.
I use a program called TVedia from http://www.8dim.com with Twinhan cards.
I have an Athlon Xp2400+ with a cheap Motherboard and an ATI 8500DV AIW
and a Netstream 2000 and a Twinhan 102g card also I have an Athlon XP3000+ with a ATI 9700 with an X-card with a Twinhan 1020 and both of these systems can easily handle 4:2:0 HD at 40mbps. 4:2:2 SD is easy with
the above mentioned Elecard decoders, I have been using DVB Dream for HD
and 4:2:2. I use Cyberlink Decoders for HD(make sure to turn on Hardware DXVA if it is not on by default and I believe all new Nvidia cards support this and every ATI card I have used over the last several years) and Elecard For 4:2:2
The Roku Idea is not bad but I am waiting for something that will
do newer formats like mpeg 4 H.264.

 

[mark_calgary]

Thanks to all for your excellent responses full of good information.

To give you an idea of my plans:

Currently I have a Pansat 2500 connected 90cm dish with a standard linear LNB. This system was originally purchased so my Dutch wife could watch BVN on IA5 mostly to catch the sports highlights (studio sport and sportjournaal) as she loves sports (mostly football - the kind actually played with the feet ). Being an Engineer and thus by default a tech weenie it is in my genes to always upgrade/improve my toys. And of course I want to receive everything I can (legally - if I wanted DBS I would subscribe to it). My big interest is in sports feeds so everything I do is geared toward that.

First I added a motor so I could see almost the entire arc - found Goltv by accident (remember I have a STANDARD linear LNB so wouldn't really be looking at circularly polarized sats).

Next I slaved an old analog receiver I got off ebay (TRX-120) after reading about all the feeds Iceberg was always getting off SBS-6 and AMC-9.

As I was just in The Netherlands last week I picked up the universal LNB I had a relative purchase for me 2 months prior (Invacom single) so I could point my dish at PAS-9 Ku (and hopefully get something) - if I receive even one European sport feed off of this the points I will score with my wife will be astronomical and then I may be able to justify my biggest wish... C-BAND!!!

But this brings me to the whole reason for this thread. I am currently missing the ability to view the many 4:2:2 feeds that appear. So while in Europe I decided I had to get a receiver for this and the best and cheapest solution is a DVB card. I would have purchased a SkyStar 2 from the shop I visited but they were out of stock (I did drool over the QualiTV and Dreambox receivers on the shelf - amazing how much more mature the sat market is over there). Strangely the salesman claimed they weren't making the Skystar 2 anymore???? I'm not sure I believe him. The Technisat website seems very up to date and has it nicely featured.

Anyway, it seems that I can't go too wrong with a cheap card like the Twinhan 102g or the SkyStar 2. Since the Pansat already does the 4:2:0 well I would only use it for 4:2:2. Correct me if I'm wrong but all the <inexpensive> mpeg hardware decoders seem to only do 4:2:0? so I wouldn't need hardware decoders on board. The Twinhan seems easier to get over here so it may be that one. I won't go for ebay on the purchase as there seems to be some shady characters selling new receivers (i.e ~15$ but you pay 50$ shipping!!!!! what is that about?)

I will likely be slaving it to the Pansat and using the Pansat for all blind scanning and motor/LNB control. It seems easy to pick out 4:4:2 feeds with it - audio only with a blocky mess on the screen. How I also connect in the analog receiver is yet to be determined.

My first step will be the DVB card. I will get that working with the old PC hardware and video card. I expect there will be a lot of playing and learning required to get good performance out it. It would seem that there are lots of options on decoders to use - thanks to all of you for showing me some good options on that.

Second step will be a better video card so I can connect it up to my TV (60" HDTV) as I have no interest in watching on a small computer screen.

Third step will be to build a bigger/faster/stronger computer that is capable of decoding HD streams as there seem to more and more HD wild feeds appearing as well. My impressions are that I will need at least a p4 2.4 or 2.8 with a big cache and oodles of memory. Or maybe even faster.

and Beyond? More dishes!!!!

So thanks again to all for the advice and recommendations. You have helped me narrow down quite a few loose ends on what I need to do.

 

[CharredPC]

With that specific information, I'd heartily endorse the Twinhan

It should get all you need done at a cheap price, and eventually do the HD stuff you want as well. I only spent $39 or so on this budget MSI videocard (on sale) but it has S-Video out, which I run to the TV; looks/works great. Sounds like you're already very well informed on things Let us know how it works out!

 

[Stefan]

"Do some research. Nexus cards handle 4:2:2 and HD just like the Twinhan line does. A hardware decoder certainly won't hurt, especially with a weak slightly out-of-date system as described. NO card I know of has onboard HD decoding, so steering away from a Nexus for that reason's a bit pointless."

My understanding is the hardware MPEG2 decoder on the Nexus cannot handle HD nor 4:2:2. Sure you can still recieve those signals with the card but you MUST use something else to decode the video as the hardware decoder onboard cannot do it. The whole reason you recommended this card was because of it's onboard hardware decoder. This is it's key selling point and the only real advantage it has over a card like the Twinhan. Therefore considering the fact that just about any modern PC can decode 4:2:0 SD just fine (which is all the Nexus cards onboard decoder can handle). That makes the onboard hardware decoder basically useless and a moot point. The onboard hardware decoder on the nexus card makes it more expensive, more power consuming, and produce more heat. Also, my understanding is the Nexus card doesn't support signals with as High symbol rate as the Twinhan card does. I believe the Twinhan supports symbol rates upto 45Megasamples/sec. Based on this I'd say that not only is the Nexus card no better than the twinhan, but in fact is quite inferior. The reason for this is it was designed back in the Pentium II/ Pentium III era when systems had CPUs running at less than 1Ghz and by todays standards is a outdated design.

"The Nexus/SkyStar1 cards do have an onboard hardware MPEG2 decoder along with video/audio out via composite however it won't output HD or 4:2:2 unless you switch to software mode."

That's exactly what I thought. So, basically the onboard decoder on the Nexus card maxes out and cannot handle anything beyond 4:2:0 SD. Seeing as how just about any PC made in recent years can easily handle 4:2:0 SD that makes the onboard decoder basically useless. Therefore recommending the Nexus, which if I'm not mistaken cost more seems like a bad idea to me.

"Correct me if I'm wrong but all the <inexpensive> mpeg hardware decoders seem to only do 4:2:0? so I wouldn't need hardware decoders on board."

Exactly! That's why I said what I did in my original post. For 4:2:2 on a PC software is about the only reasonable option and as far as I know the only 2 software options are elecards codec or VLC. There may be others but I don't know about them if they exist. As for hardware decoders, I believe there's a company called stradis that makes PCI cards that will do it, but these are generally commercial type products and may be hard to find for the general consumer and most likely cost a great deal.

"Stefan, paying $300 for an external decoder just for 1 HD channel is overkill"

If your only able to recieve 1 HD signal then perhaps that's true. I watch lots of HD on my roku. The Roku will decode HD transport streams from OTA HDTV tuner cards as well. In addition to my Twinhan card, I have a Sasem OnAir usb OTA HDTV tuner and an Air2PC OTA HDTV tuner card and I use both of these cards along with my Twinhan with TSreader to stream HD to the Roku. It works quite well.

"The Roku Idea is not bad but I am waiting for something that will
do newer formats like mpeg 4 H.264."

The Roku doesn't handle Mpeg 4. The are a few new products somewhat similar to the Roku which show promise of supporting Mpeg4. However, based on the specs I've seen from those products they don't seem to support the high bitrate MPEG2 streams the Roku can. I've used my Roku successfully with streams upto 40MBit. Rumor has it that the ATI Xellion processor used in the Roku can handle 4:2:2 but ATI has never enabled this feature. Therefore the Roku doesn't support 4:2:2 either.

 

[Stefan]

" That's got to be the most backwards way of going about a purchase I've ever heard, lol Sure, do some research, but do you ask the guy who sells floor mats what car goes best with them? lol..."

Sorry, but we're not alking about floor mats or cars here. What we are talking about is software and software makes API calls to the operating system which then in turn may make calls to functions in a device driver or may emulate those functions in software. Furthermore the device driver itself may perform some functions in hardware or in software or a combination of both. Graphs are just an abstraction to make things easier for humans to visualise. Your CPU doesn't know anything about or care anything about graphs. It only knows instructions and data. Anyway, asking a software developer what hardware will make his software perform best makes perfect sense, as the software developer will best know the inner workings of his or her own code and what function and API calls it makes. Therefore the software developer will likely know whether a feature a particular piece of hardware might supports will accelerate his code or not. Also software developers generally test their code and quite frequently do so on differing hardware. So, they are likely to have some insight on how it performs on different hardware.

 

[Wayn23]

I looked into other current players like Roku and saw they were only good for low bit rate HD in formats like WMV and DIVX and I am hoping that someone will come out with something better, my system plays high bitrate 4:2:0 HD 40+mbps with no problems now but it will not be able to handle H.264 HD based on my tests with SD H.264 files that I have tried. I believe that ATI will be releasing some new video cards that will have hardware acceleration for H.264.

I have heard also that the hardware in the Roku can do 4:2:2 also
but it is not enabled do to license fees that would add greatly to the cost.