B
Bruce Grodner
Guest
Original poster
Am I correct that you can put in a dish up to 36" according to the FCC regs?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 6:54 AM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
> And even the FCC suggests working it out within the HOA before getting
them
> involved. It doesn't change the fact that according the the letter of the
> law you are allowed to install on space that you own and control
> exclusively.
>
> I'm currently involved with some overly aggressive HOA board members who
are
> trying to run the show as they see fit. I know that dance too well. You
> don't go at it with a bull in the china shop approach, but I refuse to
roll
> over and live by what they feel should be the rules, especially with the
way
> they are going about trying to enact them.
>
> If you are an HOA board member, a phone call for clarification will
probably
> result in a letter from the FCC that explains how they are violating the
> law. Then you have ammunition to change the CC&Rs or bylaws. It's up to an
> individual if they want to pursue legally. In the state of California,
loser
> of any civil case on such matters pays the legal fees. If push came to
> shove, armed with such a letter would be pretty much a slam dunk. Does the
> HOA want to be on the hook for the legal fees? Then it's poker where you
> hold the better hand.
>
> Remember, the law has been in effect less than 10 years and many HOAs have
> been around much longer. Sometimes it's a case of rules that haven't been
> updated to reflect the current times. Not proposing a "bad neighbor"
policy
> or getting in someone's face, but if you ask when and why the rules were
put
> in place to start with, you might find getting them adjusted to meet
current
> times is not all that difficult and won't necessarily offend anyone. Just
> depends on who you're dealing with.
>
> Bob
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:26 PM
> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob,
> > I didn't fold twenty years ago and I wouldn't fold now, but I
> > have learned some things along the way and I can tell you
> > from experience it's better to reason and negotiate than
> > raise the FCC flag and take an extreme stance. It cost me
> > several thousand dollars back then to be right. I will tell
> > you again that if you signed a document that relinquishes
> > your rights in this or any matter you will be in for a fight
> > if you go against the grain. It's just the way people are
> > when forced into a corner. It is easy to give advice when
> > you don't live in the neighborhood that opposes the dish and
> > that you told you wouldn't have one but now you've decided
> > that those agreed upon rules don't apply to you. Again free
> > advice is much more costly than good legal advice that you
> > spend a few bucks on. There are local courts and then
> > appeals courts and on up. They do not agree usually, that's
> > why there are appeals and decision reversals. Do you think
> > the FCC will send and pay for a lwayer when you are hauled
> > into court over a homeowner's association or covenant suit?
> > I don't disagree with you in principle but I do in actual practice.
> > Bruce
> > Thegrod
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> > To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:25 PM
> > Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce, I would get a legal opinion from a lawyer familiar with that
> > > sort of law. IMO and IME you can't have the CC&Rs superceed Federal
> > > law. The paint color analogy is a poor one because paint
> > color is not
> > > regulated by local, state or Federal law that I am aware of.
> > >
> > > As an extreme example, what if your HOA said it was open
> > season on any
> > > senior citizen you encounter in a crosswalk? Wouldn't fly,
> > would it?
> > > What about laws that discriminated based on race or religion?
> > >
> > > Also, make sure you're not reading a regulation but ommitting the
> > > allowance based on size or that they aren't simply requiring you to
> > > file an application before installation. I can't put up a
> > big aerial
> > > on my roof, but a satellite dish less than 36" is allowable
> > under the
> > > provisions of Section
> > > 1376 of the California Civil Code.
> > >
> > > Finally, here's a clip from the FCC Q&A section mentioned earlier:
> > >
> > > Q: What can a local government, association, or consumer do
> > if there
> > > is a dispute over whether a particular restriction is valid?
> > >
> > > A: Restrictions that impair installation, maintenance or use of the
> > > antennas covered by the rule are preempted (unenforceable)
> > unless they
> > > are no more burdensome than necessary for the articulated
> > legitimate
> > > safety purpose or for preservation of a designated or eligible
> > > historic site or district. If a person believes a restriction is
> > > preempted, but the local government, community association, or
> > > landlord disagrees, either the person or the restricting entity may
> > > file a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC or a court of
> > > competent jurisdiction. We encourage parties to attempt to resolve
> > > disputes prior to filing a petition. Often calling the FCC for
> > > information about how the rule works and applies in a particular
> > > situation can help to resolve the dispute. If a local government,
> > > community association, or landlord acknowledges that its
> > restriction
> > > impairs installation, maintenance, or use and is preempted
> > under the
> > > rule but believes it can demonstrate "highly specialized or
> > unusual"
> > > concerns, the restricting entity may apply to the
> > Commission for a waiver of the rule.
> > >
> > > If it's a safety concern or historic site, fine. Otherwise,
> > it's down
> > > to poker and you guys seem more than willing to fold.
> > >
> > > Has your HOA actually called the FCC on the matter as
> > suggested above?
> > > Here's the number (202) 418-7096. Either we're missing some details
> > > which makes the rule allowable(common areas, etc) or someone is
> > > violating your civil rights.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Bruce Grodner [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:37 PM
> > >> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bob,
> > >> Because they are a contract between private individuals
> > covenants do
> > >> supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but covenants
> > are merely a
> > >> contract between a group of individuals who happen to live in the
> > >> same subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house needs to
> > >> painted purple annually and signs a document to that
> > effect than you
> > >> are leaving yourself open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations
> > >> further enforces their position if you've signed into one.
> > >> If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning
> > laws then
> > >> you would have a good legal position to keep your dish. The fCC
> > >> rulings would apply there.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> > >> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> > >> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common
> > walls, etc.
> > >> Federal
> > >> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can
> > >> superceed
> > >> > Federal law.
> > >> >
> > >> > Bob
> > >> >
> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> > >> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > >> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> > >> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> > >> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal
> > to force
> > >> > > someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone
> > else have this
> > >> > > problem?????
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > __________________________________
> > >> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > >> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >> > > --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without
> > >> > > music, dance, and theater?
> > >> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > >> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > ------~->
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >> --------------------~--> What would our lives be like
> > without music,
> > >> dance, and theater?
> > >> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > >> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> ------~->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without
> > music, dance, and theater?
> > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------~->
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2005 6:54 AM
Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
>
>
> And even the FCC suggests working it out within the HOA before getting
them
> involved. It doesn't change the fact that according the the letter of the
> law you are allowed to install on space that you own and control
> exclusively.
>
> I'm currently involved with some overly aggressive HOA board members who
are
> trying to run the show as they see fit. I know that dance too well. You
> don't go at it with a bull in the china shop approach, but I refuse to
roll
> over and live by what they feel should be the rules, especially with the
way
> they are going about trying to enact them.
>
> If you are an HOA board member, a phone call for clarification will
probably
> result in a letter from the FCC that explains how they are violating the
> law. Then you have ammunition to change the CC&Rs or bylaws. It's up to an
> individual if they want to pursue legally. In the state of California,
loser
> of any civil case on such matters pays the legal fees. If push came to
> shove, armed with such a letter would be pretty much a slam dunk. Does the
> HOA want to be on the hook for the legal fees? Then it's poker where you
> hold the better hand.
>
> Remember, the law has been in effect less than 10 years and many HOAs have
> been around much longer. Sometimes it's a case of rules that haven't been
> updated to reflect the current times. Not proposing a "bad neighbor"
policy
> or getting in someone's face, but if you ask when and why the rules were
put
> in place to start with, you might find getting them adjusted to meet
current
> times is not all that difficult and won't necessarily offend anyone. Just
> depends on who you're dealing with.
>
> Bob
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: thegrod [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 10:26 PM
> > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob,
> > I didn't fold twenty years ago and I wouldn't fold now, but I
> > have learned some things along the way and I can tell you
> > from experience it's better to reason and negotiate than
> > raise the FCC flag and take an extreme stance. It cost me
> > several thousand dollars back then to be right. I will tell
> > you again that if you signed a document that relinquishes
> > your rights in this or any matter you will be in for a fight
> > if you go against the grain. It's just the way people are
> > when forced into a corner. It is easy to give advice when
> > you don't live in the neighborhood that opposes the dish and
> > that you told you wouldn't have one but now you've decided
> > that those agreed upon rules don't apply to you. Again free
> > advice is much more costly than good legal advice that you
> > spend a few bucks on. There are local courts and then
> > appeals courts and on up. They do not agree usually, that's
> > why there are appeals and decision reversals. Do you think
> > the FCC will send and pay for a lwayer when you are hauled
> > into court over a homeowner's association or covenant suit?
> > I don't disagree with you in principle but I do in actual practice.
> > Bruce
> > Thegrod
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> > To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:25 PM
> > Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Bruce, I would get a legal opinion from a lawyer familiar with that
> > > sort of law. IMO and IME you can't have the CC&Rs superceed Federal
> > > law. The paint color analogy is a poor one because paint
> > color is not
> > > regulated by local, state or Federal law that I am aware of.
> > >
> > > As an extreme example, what if your HOA said it was open
> > season on any
> > > senior citizen you encounter in a crosswalk? Wouldn't fly,
> > would it?
> > > What about laws that discriminated based on race or religion?
> > >
> > > Also, make sure you're not reading a regulation but ommitting the
> > > allowance based on size or that they aren't simply requiring you to
> > > file an application before installation. I can't put up a
> > big aerial
> > > on my roof, but a satellite dish less than 36" is allowable
> > under the
> > > provisions of Section
> > > 1376 of the California Civil Code.
> > >
> > > Finally, here's a clip from the FCC Q&A section mentioned earlier:
> > >
> > > Q: What can a local government, association, or consumer do
> > if there
> > > is a dispute over whether a particular restriction is valid?
> > >
> > > A: Restrictions that impair installation, maintenance or use of the
> > > antennas covered by the rule are preempted (unenforceable)
> > unless they
> > > are no more burdensome than necessary for the articulated
> > legitimate
> > > safety purpose or for preservation of a designated or eligible
> > > historic site or district. If a person believes a restriction is
> > > preempted, but the local government, community association, or
> > > landlord disagrees, either the person or the restricting entity may
> > > file a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC or a court of
> > > competent jurisdiction. We encourage parties to attempt to resolve
> > > disputes prior to filing a petition. Often calling the FCC for
> > > information about how the rule works and applies in a particular
> > > situation can help to resolve the dispute. If a local government,
> > > community association, or landlord acknowledges that its
> > restriction
> > > impairs installation, maintenance, or use and is preempted
> > under the
> > > rule but believes it can demonstrate "highly specialized or
> > unusual"
> > > concerns, the restricting entity may apply to the
> > Commission for a waiver of the rule.
> > >
> > > If it's a safety concern or historic site, fine. Otherwise,
> > it's down
> > > to poker and you guys seem more than willing to fold.
> > >
> > > Has your HOA actually called the FCC on the matter as
> > suggested above?
> > > Here's the number (202) 418-7096. Either we're missing some details
> > > which makes the rule allowable(common areas, etc) or someone is
> > > violating your civil rights.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Bruce Grodner [mailto:bruceg@htva.net]
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:37 PM
> > >> To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > >> Subject: Re: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Bob,
> > >> Because they are a contract between private individuals
> > covenants do
> > >> supercede FCC regs. Zoning laws would not but covenants
> > are merely a
> > >> contract between a group of individuals who happen to live in the
> > >> same subdivision. If everyone agrees that there house needs to
> > >> painted purple annually and signs a document to that
> > effect than you
> > >> are leaving yourself open for a lawsuit. Homeowner's associations
> > >> further enforces their position if you've signed into one.
> > >> If your town says you can't have a dish because of zoning
> > laws then
> > >> you would have a good legal position to keep your dish. The fCC
> > >> rulings would apply there.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Bob Mankin" <bob@coralfarms.com>
> > >> To: <VOOM@yahoogroups.com>
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:29 PM
> > >> Subject: RE: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > If it's a house and not a condo or townhouse with common
> > walls, etc.
> > >> Federal
> > >> > law allows you up to a 3 ft dish. I don't see how CC&Rs can
> > >> superceed
> > >> > Federal law.
> > >> >
> > >> > Bob
> > >> >
> > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >> > > From: Greg Hoffman [mailto:gregh16@yahoo.com]
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:00 PM
> > >> > > To: VOOM@yahoogroups.com
> > >> > > Subject: [VOOM] Relocation problem
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I am looking to buy a house in a golf course community. In
> > >> > > reading the covenants they state "no satellite dishes or
> > >> > > antennas". That would mean NO VOOM for me. Is it legal
> > to force
> > >> > > someone to use cable for their TV viewing? Anyone
> > else have this
> > >> > > problem?????
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Any comments would be appreciated.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > __________________________________
> > >> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > >> > > Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> > >> > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >> > > --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without
> > >> > > music, dance, and theater?
> > >> > > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > >> > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> > > ------~->
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > >> --------------------~--> What would our lives be like
> > without music,
> > >> dance, and theater?
> > >> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > >> http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> ------~->
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > --------------------~--> What would our lives be like without
> > music, dance, and theater?
> > Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/EyMolB/TM
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------~->
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------
