Ran out of space in main circuit breaker panel, what to do?

[N6BY]

(This isn't about FTA but I couldn't think of anywhere else to put it. Moderators please feel free to move it.)

I want to get a hot tub and am getting the wiring ready in advance. It will require 240V with a maximum draw of 50 amps. I thought I was all set because the home builder put a sub panel wired for 240V up to 60 amps. The sub panel has thick 4 guage wire cables and runs about 40 feet inside the wall to the main circuit box.

Problem is, there is no power at the sub panel. So I checked inside the main breaker box and two out of the three (red and black) 4 gauge wires are not hooked up to anything. (But the white neutral wire is hooked up to the neutral bus). My guess is that whoever did the wiring on my house 9 1/2 years ago figured since there was no more room for the breaker that he would just leave the red and black wires there unconnected and let someone else in the future worry about it.

One possible solution is to take out some of the breakers for things we don't absolutely need. But would need to make a lot of space because the 50 amp hot tub breaker will be as big as the breaker at the top of the box for the A/C.

Getting a bigger breaker panel would be extremely difficult. And the panel already has mostly tandem breakers (2 for the size of 1). The ones the currently aren't tandem are the 240V and the ones with GFCI (ground fault protection). So the only thing I can think of is to install a new sub panel next to the main breaker panel?

Any ideas ? (I would prefer not to hire an electrician).

 

[armadillo_115]

As complex and crowded as that already looks, I would hire an electrician.

It would also be good to have room for any future expansion if the need arises.

JMHO

 

[Magic Static]

The total amperage of all the breakers should not exceed the rating of the service to the house. It looks like you have almost 500 amps in that box. Yikes! I only have 200 amp service in my house.

 

[KE4EST]

So the only thing I can think of is to install a new sub panel next to the main breaker panel?

Yep, this looks like your only option. Can't put any more twin breakers in there.

 

[Lone Gunman]

Just a thought here. You might want to check with (a) LOCAL BUILDING CODE and (b) YOUR HOMEOWNERS INSURANCE before you go doing this yourself, unless you are a certified/licensed ELECTRICIAN.

Just saying......................

 

[Magic Static]

But the cheap fix is to tie a couple lighting circuits together freeing up a couple breaker spots in the panel so you can put your hot tub breaker in. I wouldn't recommend doing that however.

 

[cyberham]

What Lone Gunman said. You are giving your house insurance company a free pass to set aside any claims in future you may make even if you pay your premiums.

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[Juan]

Just needs to be inspected by the city or town....aka electrical permit

What Lone Gunman said. You are giving your house insurance company a free pass to set aside any claims in future you may make even if you pay your premiums.

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[Cham]

I'll "second"or "third" the opinion that you NEED to have a qualified electrician give you an estimate on what is required for your hot tub installation. They will know the cost of increasing your service (dealing with the power company), and/or getting your existing wiring up to local code. Then you "could" do your own work as long as you get it inspected after.

I've never been a big fan of hot tubs... Yes they are nice to lay back in and relax, but the electrical bill and maintenance would cause me more consternation than what I would get out of it. They are best though if someone else pays the bills and does the maintenance.

 

[olliec420]

Bed lights? Getting a lil freaky over there?

 

[waylew]

Pics inside main and sub panels might be more useful.

 

[arlo]

Definitely search for the correct NEC methods. And your local code.
200A service is just that. You cant exceed your total available from the pole ever.
I've had good success from my local utility in sending out a linesman to suggest different ways for proper sub panel installs.
You could contact an electrical contractor to consult a proper approved way too. For a little fee I'm sure.
That way when the inspector comes out there shouldn't be any glitches. And your insurance company won't gig you should something happen in the future.
I've seen circuits doubled up on breaker lugs before. But I believe at bare minimum an external J box is the accepted method as long as amperage can be verified.
REC out here has no problem in an owner installing an electrical service themselves as long as it's up to their code and the inspector is happy. No sticker, no flicker.

 

[harshness]

But the cheap fix is to tie a couple lighting circuits together freeing up a couple breaker spots in the panel so you can put your hot tub breaker in. I wouldn't recommend doing that however.

Light circuits are typically 15-20 amps so it would take at least three pairs of light circuits to build a 50A, 240V output.

 

[Magic Static]

Light circuits are typically 15-20 amps so it would take at least three pairs of light circuits to build a 50A, 240V output.

LOL, I wasn't thinking electrical values there. Just creating enough space for a bigger breaker.

But thinking about loads on the circuit. I have replaced all the incandescent bulb fixtures in my house with LEDs. Now about a tenth of the power needed.

 

[N6BY]

Bed lights? Getting a lil freaky over there?

Its short for bedroom lights, silly. Do you have any electricity in your bedrooms or are you still using candles?

What Lone Gunman said. You are giving your house insurance company a free pass to set aside any claims in future you may make even if you pay your premiums.

Not a free pass to the home insurance company.The purpose of circuit breakers is to protect the wiring from overheating. Various gauges (thicknesses) of wiring have published amperage capacities. The home builder put in all of the breakers in the photo. The builder installed the breakers according to the wire gauge, and it passed building inspection as you see it in the photo. I (or anyone else) have not added anything since.

But the cheap fix is to tie a couple lighting circuits together freeing up a couple breaker spots in the panel so you can put your hot tub breaker in. I wouldn't recommend doing that however.

Yes. The worst thing that could happen is the breaker would trip more often.The wiring would still be protected if I did that, because none of the lines on the circuit could exceed the amps in the original breaker. The only way it would be dangerous is if I changed a breaker from, say 15 to 20 amps. Not gonna do that.

Also, the total rating on all of the breakers in the box IS allowed by building code to exceed the main breaker. It is extremely unlikely that everything in my house would be on at the same time. Even if I turned on everything in my house, it would simply trip the main breaker.

There are some circuits in my house that I never use. One is the 'XMas lights' circuit. And there is a good reason I don't use it: It doesn't work. The other is the one labeled 'Trash' (short for trash compactor).

So eliminating those two would give me 1/2 of the room I would need. There may be others I could get rid of.

Unless there are narrower circuit breakers I can buy, my only options are to eliminate circuits or install a sub panel. But the sub panel would be difficult because I would have to cut through stucco. And I would still need to add a breaker to my main box to feed the sub panel.

 

[raoul5788]

You must pull a permit from the building department and if you are capable, install a sub panel. Then you can move some of the overloading in your main panel there and then have room for the hot tub circuit. BTW, not pulling a permit would be a bad idea. You want it inspected by the electrical inspector.

 

[Magic Static]

I think the inspectors in this town are only really good at one thing and that's filling out a resume.

 

[ancient]

The total amperage of all the breakers should not exceed the rating of the service to the house. It looks like you have almost 500 amps in that box. Yikes! I only have 200 amp service in my house.

It's not uncommon at all to have breakers with total amperage much higher than the main breaker. The assumption is that not all circuits will be in use at the same time, and that of those that are in use, few or (usually) none will be drawing full capacity. The main breaker is there to prevent you from using more power than your service is rated for.

As for all the advice about calling a licensed electrician, I would agree with that in principle but we all know why people don't want to do that. First of all, those guys can charge like licensed plumbers, which is to say they rip you off with wildly inflated prices. It always makes my jaw drop when I watch one of those home improvement shows and the electrical panel has to be replaced and they quote a price in the thousands of dollars, for a panel that costs under $200 (and yes you then have to add the cost of the breakers, but usually a few are supplied with the box and the rest can be purchased for around ten to twenty bucks apiece except for the specialty breakers such as arc fault that may be required by code).

But the bigger reason for me is that I've had enough dealings with licensed electricians to know that a license does not guarantee quality work. I've seen licensed electricians do things that are blatant violations of the electrical codes, and I've also seem them make boneheaded mistakes that would result in dangerous conditions (such as leaving a main ground wire unconnected). So unless you know a licensed electrician that you can trust, it's basically a crap shot on whether you are going to get quality work (I think that actually applies to any licensed professional). And then if they are drinking buddies with the local inspector, he'll probably come in, plug a tester into a few outlets, and slap a sticker on the box and leave.

Speaking of which, in my area it seems like inspectors never get involved except in the case of new construction. Don't know how it is in other areas, but around these parts you probably won't see an an electrical inspector unless you have done work that requires a construction permit, or specifically request and pay for an inspection.

One thing I always wonder about is the apocryphal stories of insurance claims being denied because of things like this. If that were really true, I think no one would waste money on homeowners insurance, especially after buying a pre-owned home were you have no idea who's done work on it before you bought it. I mean, maybe if the insurance company can prove that work was done by an unlicensed person AND that it was not up to code AND that it was the direct cause of the loss AND that the current homeowner knew about it, maybe they could wiggle out of it but if they did that too many times they would get a reputation as a company that never pays claims, which in this day of social media would be a very bad thing for them.

I am not saying it never happens, but then again if they find that a loss was caused by bad wiring, how do they prove it was done by an unlicensed person as opposed to a boneheaded licensed professional? Case in point, a few years ago a store near me burned to the ground, and afterwards it was traced to an electrical staple that had been driven though the wire, only thing was it had been that way for 30 years before it finally caught fire! By that point no one knew who had driven that staple, and the store still got the insurance payout and was able to rebuild. I wish I could say that a licensed electrician would never do that, but in my experience not all of them are real careful with their work, especially after a long day.

 

[Magic Static]

Well we do have some different regs here in Montana. One of the biggest differences was in the location of the meter base. My house was built with the meter base set into the outside wall. Nope! Not allowed in Montana. It can be surface mounted only. I ended up with a meter base on a utility pole beside the house. The pole rotted away and when I had it replaced I had to replace the meter base as well. I was told by the electrician about the rule that the total amps of the breakers could not exceed the main service breaker even though I understand about the protection being there regardless. I have 305 amps installed in my 200 amp service box myself.

 

[solarvic]

Do you have a solar system and grid connected? I Had an old trailer with an outside power pole with the meter box and outside 140 amp service box on the pole. Heavy aluminum service cable from that box goes into the service inside 100 amp service inside my double wide home. When I got my solar installed I fed the solar into the 140 amp on the outside pole because my inside service is only 100 amp service I make enough electric from my solar for the year and usually have a little less than $100.00 credit left over every year. I noticed your meter box had a solar sticker on it. So was wondering if you could do something like I did. I had an electrician help me wire up everything and it passed electrical inspection so I feel safe with it. I can tell you that my son inlaw that lives across the road from me got a hot tub and I gave him a power meter and his hot tub used as much electric as my whole house. Around 500 kw per month just to keep it on.