Question for installers - should I have mine come back and do it right?

[SpenceJT]

Last week a sub came to replace my SuperDish (121) and my D500 (129) with a Dish 1000.

As the installer was assembling the 1000, I noticed that he had created and was attaching three-foot leads to the LNBs. I mentioned that he would need longer sections of cable as the dish is six to eight feet from the three cable connections leading into the house and connecting to my DP+44 switch.

He replied that he'd just add a section of cable (three sections actually) between the leads coming from the D1000 and the three main cables leading into my home. I questioned this practice because everything I know about cabling (I've installed my first few satellite systems and regualrly work with computer networking, cabling etc.) the signal attenuates with each and every connection. He stated that it would do nothing to the signal strength so I let him proceed.

Signal strength on all three satellites is fairly solid, however later the following day, I was on the roof carefully removing the mouting hardware for my old SuperDish and decided to check the connections on his additional connections. To my surprise, they unscrewed with little effort on my part. I was further surprised that there was nothing whatsoever on or in these connections by way of protection from the elements (no rubber "o" rings, no sealant, nada).

I've currently got an appointment (at no charge) for another tech to return to my home this Saturday to install the cables "per instructions" (a single run of cables between the LNBs and connections leading into my home). This will eliminate 50% of the barrel connectors and reduce any chance of corrosion or problem due to elements. I would hope that they also add some sort of sealant to protect the remaining three barrel connectors.

My question... is my prior installation installation now standard practice leaving it prone to problems in the future or are installers directed to weather proof and reduce the amount of connections.

This past installer explained that he was called in on his day off to cover for someone, and was suppose to be attending a wedding with his wife. His mind was obviously not on the job, or quality of same.

Am I justified in bringing a tech back out to (in my opinion) install things correctly or am I being too pick?

Sorry for the long post.

Spence

 

[bhelms]

In my experience, we all define "quality" a bit differently. (I'm in the quality business, BTW, so I spend a lot of time thinking about these things!) One fairly reasonable definition of quality in today's highly competitive markets is "fitness for purpose", i.e., if product or service meets the specifications in the intended application then it is adequate quality. Generally this is definition is used in context with "value", implying that quality is good enough at a price the customer is willing to pay, and not necessarily "best" which the customer might not be willing to pay for.

So by that definition (fitness for use) I would say that the installer is OK in using the barrel connectors. I assume there was some cost advantage for him doing it that way (less installation hassle/time?) or else he would not have added them. You are correct that every perturbation of the signal path imparts some amount of attenuation, but the installer is also correct that the amount of loss he has added is insignificant to the signal quality and thus "fit for the intended purpose".

That said, I do agree with you that there should have been some protection from the elements (dielectric grease or equivalent) and the connectors should have been a bit tighter. I think there he was cutting corners and what he did falls a bit short of "fitness" in my practice/opinion. Maybe he felt those connections were adequate as he did them. As I said, we all have our own definition of "quality" work.

You have a right to be concerned about the possible lack of quality workmanship (lack of protection). If you felt that needed to be brought to E*'s attention and corrected, you certainly had a right to voice your concern. In this case apparently E* has sided with you, but in many similar cases it's hard to tell who E* would agree with. Many installers have found it necessary to cut corners in order to make quotas in the increasingly-tough business environment, and E* might back them up on that. (I.e., the approved way to do a job might not always meet the installer's own standards but E* would only authorize him to do it that way.)

Over the years I have become quite thick-skinned about these kinds of situations. I would probably have just redone the connections to my standards and let it go at that. There are battles worth fighting, but I don't think this is one of them...!

PS - Was the system properly grounded? You might have a real issue there...!

 

[SpenceJT]

Thanks.

I had thought about pulling the LNBs and running three new cables (I've got the cable, connectors and compression tool) on my own, but my time is valuable.

I was a bit puzzled by the fact that I made note of his cable length "while" he was connecting the cables that were too short. It would have been easier for him to hook up longer cables at that point (as I had requested).

The lack of weatherproofing the connections is what put me at the tipping point. If someone is coming out to take care of this, I'm going to have them reduce the amount of connections and thus any additional point of possible problem.

Come to think of it, this installer didn't even have any blank work orders left. He had me sign the user agreement, then told me that he'd fill out a work order and have forge my signature onto it. Perhaps he didn't have any cables longer than four feet long and/or didn't want to take the time to make some.

My system has been correctly grounded since day one with the SuperDish. I ended up having to ground the D500 pointing at 129 because the installer never grounded that one when I signed on for the HD package last February.

Thanks for the response.

Spence

 

[Mike500]

I would agree with the original poster and not the second. I, too, do a lot of installs.

I DO NOT, however, take shortcuts, when it would be quite easy to have replaced the sections of cable with new complete ones in the first place. Barrel connectors should be avoided as much as possible.

I would, however, not replace long lengths of cable, unless they are not in good condition or if they will definitely affect performance.

There is no excuse in not tightening the connectors beyond finger tight.


Weatherproofing is more than just covering the connection with a sealant or taping them. The best protection is placing all connections, including the grounding blocks, inside a weatherproof box, with entries and exits of cable at the bottom. Placing connectors in the horizontal position under an overhang is another option. At the very least, the connection should be horizontal with the cables sloping down to form a drip loop to drain moisture away form a connection. Since moisture enters the connection oftentimes as vapor or a gas, no amount of sealant or tape can seal the connection for very long. These sealants can actually trap water to corrode the connection.

 

[Van]

To the OP, you are right in questioning the installer who came out to do the work as the practice of using jumpers at the dish is not approved by dish network and %95 of the time leads to water contamination of the coax leading all the way into the house and very possibly into the receiver(s). The sub took a short cut wich is what most all subs do as they only get paid by the install and they have to crank out enough of them to make a decent living. Subs are ever increasingly getting less and less on the installs they do wether it be from the provider or the company they work from.

My new rule of thumb is this, if you have to ask then the answer is yes. If it looks suspect then be worried.

 

[rich88]

I'm not sure if I'm picturing your situation correctly. But I will say this:

With the SuperDish, you could have a straight run from the 3 LNBs to the ground block (BTW, FYI, the ground block should be between the dish and switch) because you could easily peak or check the signal just using a jumper from the sat. meter.

But with the Dish 500 and Dish 1000, we are taught to have a short jumper from the LNB(s) down to the mast where we put a barrel, form a drip loop, and weather-proof it. This way if someone has to come back out on a service call, they can connect their sat. meter to the barrel at the dish.

And think about it, if the Dish 500 or 1000 is on the roof and the coax is a straight run down to the ground block 15 - 20 feet BELOW, that cable is getting cut anyway right there at the dish in order to check the signal.

Anyway the most connectors there should be on any one line from dish to receiver is 8.
1 - LNB
2 - into barrel at dish
3 - from barrel at dish
4 - into ground block
5- from ground block
6 - into switch
7 - from switch
8- into receiver

Now mind you, that seem like a lot, but the MINIMUM number of connectors you should have on any one line with a switch in it is 6.

 

[SpenceJT]

Before idiot installer I had;

1 - LNB
2 - into barrel at dish
3 - from barrel at dish
4 - into ground block
5- from ground block
6 - into switch
7 - from switch
8- into receiver

the connector at into and out of the barrel at dish is about 8 feet away from the actual dish so in essence, it was a long "jumper".

Now I have;

1 - LNB
2 - into barrel at dish
3 - from barrel at dish
4 - into barrel #2 between dish and grounding block
5 - from barrel #2 between dish and grounding block
6 - into ground block
7 - from ground block
8 - into switch
9 - from switch
10 - into receiver

In this FUBAR'd installation, picture a set of "jumpers" going into a second set of "jumpers" then into the long cable leading into the house, grounding block, switch and finally on to the receiver.

I think I'll be writing CEO@ about this. This will make the THIRD visit by an installer. The first was to repair the SuperDish with a heat related LNB issue. I asked if they could replace it with a Dish 1000 (my new neighborhood frowns on multiple dish antennas) and they said yes. The installer that showed up didn't have a Dish 1000 so he replaced my SuperDish with an ugly adaptor tube and a Dish 500. I called (and paid) for a second visit to have a Dish 1000 installed, which put me in this current state of frustration requiring a third visit to string a single set of jumper cables and weather proof the connections against the elements.

Thanks for all of the feedback on this. It gives me a bit of ammo!

 

[webbydude]

I'm not sure if I'm picturing your situation correctly. But I will say this:

With the SuperDish, you could have a straight run from the 3 LNBs to the ground block (BTW, FYI, the ground block should be between the dish and switch) because you could easily peak or check the signal just using a jumper from the sat. meter.

But with the Dish 500 and Dish 1000, we are taught to have a short jumper from the LNB(s) down to the mast where we put a barrel, form a drip loop, and weather-proof it. This way if someone has to come back out on a service call, they can connect their sat. meter to the barrel at the dish.

And think about it, if the Dish 500 or 1000 is on the roof and the coax is a straight run down to the ground block 15 - 20 feet BELOW, that cable is getting cut anyway right there at the dish in order to check the signal.

Anyway the most connectors there should be on any one line from dish to receiver is 8.
1 - LNB
2 - into barrel at dish
3 - from barrel at dish
4 - into ground block
5- from ground block
6 - into switch
7 - from switch
8- into receiver

Now mind you, that seem like a lot, but the MINIMUM number of connectors you should have on any one line with a switch in it is 6.

Uh-uh!!! No way should there be any barrels in-between the LNB and groundblock. Too much chance of signal loss...corrosion...etc! Not to mention it COMPLETELY goes against everything that is put out by Dish.

If a person has to test or repeak a system, then disconnect the cables and hookup your own jumper from the LNB to your meter. Anything else is a short-cut and in effect, is compromising the system. All at the customer's expense.

 

[rcdallas]

Last week a sub came to replace my SuperDish (121) and my D500 (129) with a Dish 1000.

As the installer was assembling the 1000, I noticed that he had created and was attaching three-foot leads to the LNBs. I mentioned that he would need longer sections of cable as the dish is six to eight feet from the three cable connections leading into the house and connecting to my DP+44 switch.

He replied that he'd just add a section of cable (three sections actually) between the leads coming from the D1000 and the three main cables leading into my home. I questioned this practice because everything I know about cabling (I've installed my first few satellite systems and regualrly work with computer networking, cabling etc.) the signal attenuates with each and every connection. He stated that it would do nothing to the signal strength so I let him proceed.

Signal strength on all three satellites is fairly solid, however later the following day, I was on the roof carefully removing the mouting hardware for my old SuperDish and decided to check the connections on his additional connections. To my surprise, they unscrewed with little effort on my part. I was further surprised that there was nothing whatsoever on or in these connections by way of protection from the elements (no rubber "o" rings, no sealant, nada).

I've currently got an appointment (at no charge) for another tech to return to my home this Saturday to install the cables "per instructions" (a single run of cables between the LNBs and connections leading into my home). This will eliminate 50% of the barrel connectors and reduce any chance of corrosion or problem due to elements. I would hope that they also add some sort of sealant to protect the remaining three barrel connectors.

My question... is my prior installation installation now standard practice leaving it prone to problems in the future or are installers directed to weather proof and reduce the amount of connections.

This past installer explained that he was called in on his day off to cover for someone, and was suppose to be attending a wedding with his wife. His mind was obviously not on the job, or quality of same.

Am I justified in bringing a tech back out to (in my opinion) install things correctly or am I being too pick?

Sorry for the long post.

Spence

Sounds like a Detroit install.

Technically your not suppose to have ANY breaks in the line from the LNB to the ground block, I'll leave it at that.

You have a warranty, it's your install, it's your decision...

 

[TommyTDFVC]

The installer pre-made his dish. It is wrong. He is trying to save time on installs.

 

[bhelms]

...Anyway the most connectors there should be on any one line from dish to receiver is 8.
1 - LNB
2 - into barrel at dish
3 - from barrel at dish
4 - into ground block
5- from ground block
6 - into switch
7 - from switch
8- into receiver

Now mind you, that seem like a lot, but the MINIMUM number of connectors you should have on any one line with a switch in it is 6.

By your method, add two more into/out of a separator where one is used, and 4 more into/out of diplexers where those are used...

 

[bhelms]

It's interesting to see those skilled in the "art" - the installers themselves - disagreeing about the correct method. This really supports my original premise that "quality" (what's best or sufficient) is quite subjective. Assuming that these installers are trained in the "right" way by E* then even the source apparently can't set a uniform standard!

To the OP - as I mentioned in my first post, why fight this one? Just reconfigure it the way you want it and be done with it!

 

[bhelms]

...I DO NOT, however, take shortcuts...Weatherproofing is more than just covering the connection with a sealant or taping them. The best protection is placing all connections, including the grounding blocks, inside a weatherproof box, with entries and exits of cable at the bottom. Placing connectors in the horizontal position under an overhang is another option. At the very least, the connection should be horizontal with the cables sloping down to form a drip loop to drain moisture away form a connection...

OK - So here's a question for you, Mike. Are you authorized to put the connections into the box you describe and do you do that consistently on every job? One can infer from your rebuttal that anything less would be a "shortcut" that you state you don't take...

Don't take this the wrong way. I'm only trying to emphasize my point that in the real world where installers need to make quotas and everyone needs to make a profit (or else they won't be there tomorrow), the "best" way is not necessarily the technically superior way...!

 

[Mike500]

No, I only do specialty installs now, although I have done fulfillment installs in the past.

I just refuse to do poor qualty work and refused to take more that two installs a day. That was three years ago, whe they paid independent contractors decent prices for installs. It got to a point, whe the customers would ask for me that a lot of dealers had to say that I was no longer avalable. As a result, they decided to farm out their installs to thie full time subcontractors.

Currently, I take referals from dealers, who have customers who need a lot more that the "free" install and are willing to pay for the higher quality work. A lot are sick of systems that do not work to their full potential and require numerous service calls.

As a matter of fact, weatherproof boxes for grounding blocks are really cheap in large quantities. When necessary, I throw them in as part of the install.

Since I am also a specialty installer of low voltage circuits of all kinds and am a master electrician, dbs installs are not my primary business, now. It just no longer pays. I do them as part of a package deal.

 

[Jared Twomey]

Wow, this is a touchy subject... I have been installing for a long time and I agree that "technically" thats not the way it is supposed to be done.... but in the real world
if the installer used good compression fittings, and good barrel conn, there is no reason why it needs to be taped over, or wrapped up with anything, dielectric grease would probably be a good idea though...
At my home I have a barrel connector buried about a foot down not sealed at all, and I have never had a problem with it.
And as far as for loss, you aren't going to notice enough loss because of a few extra connectors to matter, unless maybe you just have a really long cable run and you are on the edge anyway

 

[SpenceJT]

Okay, the third installer has come and gone. he replaced the three dual-jumpered lines with a single jumper.

Checked signal and it's solid (90-110) on 110/119, with the exception of 129 which is in the 40-50's.

I've gotten to the point where I'm tired of calling the installers back, pulled out my snap-n-seal connectors and compression tool and put new ends on the jumper going to 129. This helped get the signal up (depending on the transponder) between 64-77 (actually in the low to mid 50's on tsp 21).

Now I realize that the 1000 is a bee-otch to peak, but I'm inclined to head up to the roof with my trusty wrench and see if I can't tweak it to achieve a better signal from 129. I've read that peaking on the weak transponders may help and that I may sacrifice a few points off of both 110 & 119. I've installed Dish 500s in the past, but never a dish that receives 3 positions so I'll stay away from any skew adjustments and stick with minute adustments to horizontal and vertical to see what I can do.

The other option (which isn't an option in our neighborhood because of "deed restrictions") would be to re-install a Dish 500 at 129 until which time Dish Network finds some sort of solution for the "wobbling" satellite that I've read is in a state of ill health.

Thanks for all of your feeback. I was able to call Dish and get one of the $29 service calls refunded.

I still had some issue with the third installer stating that "in his experience" a solid connection didn't need to be weatherproofed in any way. I asked him if this is a practice that Dish Network suggests and that was the end of the discussion.

Thanks again!
Regards,
Spence

 

[Jared Twomey]

I still had some issue with the third installer stating that "in his experience" a solid connection didn't need to be weatherproofed in any way. I asked him if this is a practice that Dish Network suggests and that was the end of the discussion.

I still stand by the fact that a connection with good Compression fittings if fine out in the weather. Snap-N-Seal connectors do just that... you snap them.. they seal.... just my opinion

 

[rcdallas]

I still stand by the fact that a connection with good Compression fittings if fine out in the weather. Snap-N-Seal connectors do just that... you snap them.. they seal.... just my opinion

That is exactly what they are designed for... provided that you are using drip loops and the little black boots on the F-Connectors thats all you need.

Sure you can go off and spend all the extra money and utilize a special box to weatherproof, but the simple fact remains is that we're talking about residential satellite tv reception not the hubbel telescope.

 

[rich88]

Uh-uh!!! No way should there be any barrels in-between the LNB and groundblock. Too much chance of signal loss...corrosion...etc! Not to mention it COMPLETELY goes against everything that is put out by Dish.

If a person has to test or repeak a system, then disconnect the cables and hookup your own jumper from the LNB to your meter. Anything else is a short-cut and in effect, is compromising the system. All at the customer's expense.

That is so not true.

301, 311 receivers have a signal strength between 120 - 125, and dual tuners have signal strength between 110 - 120 from the 119 sat.

Thanks, but no thanks, I think I'll trust the direction of my FSMs, QAS, and trainer on this, especially since it has turned-out to be true.

We did it "your way" with the SuperDish but we do it this way with the Dish 500, especially when we are up on a ladder and the LNB is not within reach to be removed without loosening the dish and turning it to us.

 

[SpenceJT]

Okay, so I've replaced the ends on the jumper to the LNB for 129 with a small improvement in signal strength. I was able to receive most of the HD on 129 "most of the time" but found the signal dropping only at times when I really wanted to be seeing what was on the screen (Quint being eaten by mechanical "Bruce") always the way it is eh?).

Decided to attempt to peak the D1000 to see if I could bump 129 from an average of 60 (45-55 on TSP 20-22). Prior to going to the roof, I checked the peak angles per the charts that I'd found for my zip code (interesting that I had a 1 degree difference from my old Zip code... from which I am only 5 miles away). Also noticed that the 118 skew on the chart was set at 117 on the dish. Checked the mounting pole and confirmed that it was plumb. Set skew at recommended 118, then began the process of playing "peak" with the dish. Thanks to my trusty cordless phone's "intercom" and "speakerphone" feature, I was able to peak signal "by ear". Granted, it isn't what the pros do, but I don't have any peak meter (I really should just buy one).

Well, to make a long story slightly shorter, I have retained my signal levels for 110 and 119 and am now getting between 70 - 80 on transponders 20-22 on 129!

What ranged from 55 to 70 on 129, now ranges 65 to 85 with an average hovering somewhere just above the 70's! This is about where 121 was on my old SuperDish in Southern Wisconsin so I'm pleased with my own ameture work and a bit more "displeased" with the lack of quality put fourth from Dish's subcontracted installers.

All is well and my wife can watch HGTV HD and FOOD HD to her heart's content!

Thanks all for putting up with my ocassional rant at the expense of poor installers, I am sure they aren't all as bad as the ones I've had to deal with!

Regards,
Spence