Q: Antenna strategies for picky newbie?

[RedSavina]

Hello all! I've been scouring this board and other sources trying to get a handle on what I need to get into FTA. I still have several questions, but one specific area is with the dishes. Below is a reflection of my current understanding. Would anyone care to clarify or correct these points?

Single satellite

• One dish with one LNBF viewing one satellite

Multiple satellites

• Multiple dishes, each with one LNBF viewing one satellite
• One dish with one LNBF and a rotor capable of viewing various satellites
• Multiple dishes with multiple LNBFs and a rotor capable of viewing various satellites
• One dish with multiple LNBFs mounted such that they are each viewing a different satellite

Okay, assuming I'm on the right track, I have the following questions.

1. When choosing a dish solution with a fixed LNBF (i.e. dedicated view of a particular satellite), are delays in switching channels essentially non-existent and based only on the receiver's capability?
2. When choosing a dish solution with multiple fixed LNBFs, are delays in switching channels the same as above plus a minimal delay for switching?
3. When choosing a dish solution using rotors, how much additional delay is added to channel switching?

I am comfortable with dish aiming, having done several Dish Network and one DirecTV install. I currently have a dishpro 110/119 and 61.5 installation. I'm amazed at the comments I get about "all those dishes" - yeah, both of them! Even so, I'm a neat freak and like my hobbies to be cleanly installed and minimally noticeable where ever possible. One of my neighbors wonders how I can have two young children and no TV (I have a projector and pull-down screen). That's how I like it! I also have put a lot of effort and expense into my mobile ham rigs to make them out-of-sight as much as possible and to make the visible portions look as professional/factory-installed as possible.

Now that you know that, what would you recommend for someone with my idiosyncrasies as far as a FTA installation goes? How many satellites (i.e. linear LNBFs) should I initially plan for in addition to the 110/119/61.5 (circular LNBFs) I am currently viewing? Basically, how can I balance the trade-off between number of dishes and maximizing viewable satellites. Those toroidal dishes seem to be the answer, but I've read nothing good about the T55 and can only assume the T90 is only marginally better.

In a nutshell, I want it all and in one box with minimal dishes. If there was a way to legally use my Nagra2 Dish card in an all-in-one box, I would be all over it. I will not go so far as a hack. I know that kind of discussion is not allowed here and I want no part of it anyway.

Anyone want to educate me or point me to a thread I may have missed that addresses these issues?

Thanks,
RedSavina

 

[bigOleB]

1. When choosing a dish solution with a fixed LNBF (i.e. dedicated view of a particular satellite), are delays in switching channels essentially non-existent and based only on the receiver's capability?
   
   It is based on the receiver.
   
2. When choosing a dish solution with multiple fixed LNBFs, are delays in switching channels the same as above plus a minimal delay for switching?
   
   You are correct.
   
3. When choosing a dish solution using rotors, how much additional delay is added to channel switching?
   
   Anywhere from 2 seconds to 60 seconds with most motors depending on the distance traveled.

Personally, the ability to move all the way across the arc with one satellite works better for me, although I have a few fixed dishes as well. Just about every type of setup can be found here as well as tons of information on how to get you up and going.

I suggest:

36" Offset Dish , STAB90HH Motor, .3db Invacom Quad LNBF, PANSAT 3500

Welcome Aboard!

 

[PSB]

Hello and WELCOME to the SatelliteGuys.US FTA Forum



1. Yes, some receivers switch channels slightly faster than others.

2. After set up changing channels will be just as fast/slow as above again depending on the receiver.

3. For example changing from Amazonas (61w) to G10 (123w) takes me 54 seconds using a motorized dish. I would have to say a motorized dish would be the way to go.

 

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

I am comfortable with dish aiming, having done several Dish Network and one DirecTV install.

That will be very helpful to have experience. Be aware that it is more difficult to aim an FTA dish due to the lower power of the birds.

Even so, I'm a neat freak and like my hobbies to be cleanly installed and minimally noticeable where ever possible. One of my neighbors wonders how I can have two young children and no TV (I have a projector and pull-down screen). That's how I like it! I also have put a lot of effort and expense into my mobile ham rigs to make them out-of-sight as much as possible and to make the visible portions look as professional/factory-installed as possible.

From what I see, you have all the "symptoms" of a person that will like FTA. There are many "Hams" here and many are particular about their installs too.

Now that you know that, what would you recommend for someone with my idiosyncrasies as far as a FTA installation goes? How many satellites (i.e. linear LNBFs) should I initially plan for in addition to the 110/119/61.5 (circular LNBFs) I am currently viewing? Basically, how can I balance the trade-off between number of dishes and maximizing viewable satellites. Those toroidal dishes seem to be the answer, but I've read nothing good about the T55 and can only assume the T90 is only marginally better.

In a nutshell, I want it all and in one box with minimal dishes. If there was a way to legally use my Nagra2 Dish card in an all-in-one box, I would be all over it. I will not go so far as a hack. I know that kind of discussion is not allowed here and I want no part of it anyway.

Anyone want to educate me or point me to a thread I may have missed that addresses these issues?

Thanks,
RedSavina

I would forget the Torodial. Hardly anyone here uses them because they were designed for the European market where there are several higher power birds close together. It is my understanding that a Torodial with 3 LNBs for example effectively becomes 3 small (DBS size) dishes in practical use.

If you want the fewest dishes then a motorized dish (largest you can afford/install) is the way to go. The only disadvantage is time moving between sats but there are several in the east that you can find quickly. Some people use a fixed dish for G10 and motorized for the rest since G10 is one of the western-most birds and also one of the most popular.

There is no "all-in-one" box that I know of at this time. One suggestion is to use the search function to read the "back postings". I still do that all the time-very educational!

Welcome aboard and best wishes!

 

[bigOleB]

Look in Equipment Reviews, many great reviews of most popular receivers.

 

[RedSavina]

Everyone,
Thanks for the great replies - and quick, too!

questic,
Good tip on the reviews forum. I found that last night and was initially lost I re-read it again late after lots of research and got about 50% of what I read. After the third pass this morning I am up in the 90's. If I was buying today it would be a toss-up between the Pansat 3500s and the Viewsat VS2000. I like the component video feature of the 3500s since it will fit nicely with my home theater and the SD card slot, so would probably go for that one. However, the Dreambox has really caught my eye. It looks like speed is certainly a factor to consider.

W. Tracy & PSB,
Thanks for the real-world perspective on the dish. Based on what you both said and other research, I'll probably go with a 90cm motorized setup initially. Adding fixed dishes later on is a good tip.

Regards,
Red

 

[drhydro]

I really recommend getting the largest dish you can afford / fit. If you can afford (and have the space for) a 1.2 meter dish, go for it. Or, if you want to go whole hog, put up a BUD with c and ku capabilities. Larger dishs really help pull in those weak signals

 

[RedSavina]

I really recommend getting the largest dish you can afford / fit. If you can afford (and have the space for) a 1.2 meter dish, go for it. Or, if you want to go whole hog, put up a BUD with c and ku capabilities. Larger dishs really help pull in those weak signals

Yer killin me with that BUD talk Actually, my career is pretty mobile.. With my current employer I have been located in NJ, FL, VA, OR, WA, CA, and ME. My current stint in ME has been relatively short and should change again in a year or so. That said, I need to keep to systems that I can pack up and transport in my trailer. I won't let the guys with the big truck touch my gear!

But you make a good point. I'll take a good look at the 120. Maybe one of those fitted with the Invacom QPH 031 and a good rotor. Any recommendations?

Red

 

[bigOleB]

Dreambox is used more in Europe. Pansat seems to be the industry standard in the US.

 

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

Everyone,
Thanks for the great replies - and quick, too!

If I was buying today it would be a toss-up between the Pansat 3500s and the Viewsat VS2000. I like the component video feature of the 3500s since it will fit nicely with my home theater and the SD card slot, so would probably go for that one. However, the Dreambox has really caught my eye. It looks like speed is certainly a factor to consider.

W. Tracy & PSB,
Thanks for the real-world perspective on the dish. Based on what you both said and other research, I'll probably go with a 90cm motorized setup initially. Adding fixed dishes later on is a good tip.

Regards,
Red

I would go with one of three receivers-Pansat 3500, Coolsat 4000 Pro or Fortec Lifetime Ultra. In my opinion (speaking as a person still fairly new to FTA) the Coolsat is the most user friendly of the three. The new firmware update (see review section) provides partial AC3 support and a great new blind scan feature. Another great feature is a one-button-delete for scrambled channels. Also very fast and user-friendly in everyday use.

The Pansat has some great features. The component video is a big plus for a home theatre user. Also it has complete AC3 support, a better signal meter (than the Coolsat) and a complete channel list (saves alot of work). Blind scan on the Pansat is not as good as the new Coolsat in my opinion and I had both of these units.

The Fortec has AC3 support and is probably the cheapest. It has a bug that makes duplicate channels but many here use it and like it. I have not owned it so I can't say too much else.

I don't hear too much about the dreambox here-maybe because of the price. I would go with one of the more "common" receivers since the knowledge base would be much greater if you need help. You can always upgrade later.

I agree with Drhyrdo-get the biggest dish you can afford. A 90 is a good choice. I have a 76 and sometimes I wish I had bigger.

 

[RedSavina]

Okay gang,

To summarize:

• I should go with the biggest dish I can afford (both in terms of dollars and space).
• I may eventually want multiple dishes, but a motorized dish is probably the best place to start.
• I should really try to avoid the toroidal dishes.

'Receivers for a first-timer' is a good topic for another thread, so I'll wrap that up with the recommendation to stick with Pansat or one of the other common brands in the US.

Anyone have additional input on the dishes or motors that has not been covered yet? If so bring it!

Red

 

[W_Tracy_Parnell]

Sounds like you're starting to get a handle on it already Red. There is a temptation in the beginning to go for everything-I was the same way. But one step at a time is really the easy way. if you have too many things going at once and run into problems you may not be able to tell where the issue is.

 

[drhydro]

A lot of the folks with bigger (120) cm dishs are finding that the standard diseqc motors arent really heavy duty enough to push around the larger dishs. They will work, but are really pushing the limits on what those motors are capable of. You might want to go with a vbox and actuator/polar mount setup to ensure reliability. It is a more expensive way to go, but you wont have to worry about burning out motors.

 

[Tron]

As for forgetting about a Toroidal, certainly a T-55 will do you no good for FTA. This dish is designed for reception of high-power DBS birds only (hence its 20" effective size)... so this dish would be the same as multiple fixed DBS (20", such as Dish Network or DirecTV) dishes.

The T-90, on the other hand, is another story. This is a very large dish (its actually larger in width than my Channel Master 1 meter dish, both are sitting next to each other on my roof). It is designed for reception of linear Ku satellites, and is as effective as a 36" fixed round dish for each LNB installed.

There are issues to consider with a Toroidal, however; for one, you can't install LNBs for satellites closer together than 3 degrees. So, for example, if you want to hit 101w (AMC-4) and 103w (AMC-1), you can't on a single Toroidal dish, not even the T-90. The closest adjacent satellite would have to be at least 3 degrees, so you would be able to hit 105w next, going west from 101w (there is no satellite at 104w). The same applies going east.

The Toroidal dishes are also very hard to aim. Your elevation, in particular, needs to be PRECISE. Your skew has to be perfectly set. You may want to wait until you've installed a regular fixed FTA dish successfully and feel comfortable pointing the dish and finding linear Ku birds before going Toroidal.

The Toroidal 90's are certainly useful, but they cannot completely replace a motorized dish due to the degree spacing issue. Also, remember that you need to purchase multiple LNBs (one for each satellite you want to hit), which can get to be expensive.

A T-90 basically can replace several fixed dishes. A motorized dish can hit the entire arc, but takes time to move and can only hit one satellite at a time. I personally have three dishes... a motorized Winegard 30", a fixed 1 meter Channel Master (aimed at Galaxy 10 at 123w), and a Toroidal 90, which will hit a number of satellites east of Galaxy 10 across the arc at one time.

Remember, the deeper you go into this hobby, the more you'll spend and the more addicted you'll become

 

[bigOleB]

Remember, the deeper you go into this hobby, the more you'll spend and the more addicted you'll become

Now the truth is out...

 

[digiblur]

time. I personally have three dishes... a motorized Winegard 30", a fixed 1 meter Channel Master (aimed at Galaxy 10 at 123w), and a Toroidal 90, which will hit a number of satellites east of Galaxy 10 across the arc at one time.

Remember, the deeper you go into this hobby, the more you'll spend and the more addicted you'll become

Why the stationary at 123w?

Sounds like something I might have to do. I was doing some tweaking last night and got 80+ signals on extreme left of the arc and 80+ signals on the extreme right of the arc. I was grinning ear to ear then I went to 123w and say the 40% quality signals. I tweaked it a little bit to 80+ then went back to SBS6 and got 40%. Tweaked a little more and then lost it all so I gave up for the night. These little 36inch dishes are touchy..... that 10foot BUD I had 10 years ago was definately easier!

 

[sikma]

Because of the way the trees are placed in my yard (south) I currently have the P* dishes, one for bird 123, second dish for 101 & 93, and the third dish for 83 & 74. My next step, I bought an diseqc actuator and polar mount from Cascade. I'll use that for birds 101-72, but still keep one P* dish dedicated for G10. That's the best I can do at this time.

 

[RedSavina]

Uh-Oh... Just found the miniBUD thread!

Wow, I found the miniBUD thread earlier today (see thread #70314; I don't have URL-posting privileges yet - sorry ).

It took a while to read all 26 pages, but was well worth it. Now that advice for a 120cm dish is looking better! I'm seriously considering this for my initial purchase/installation with a mind toward experimenting with C band after I conquer the initial learning curve for FTA.

One other thing in the miniBUD thread caught my eye: HDTV! Too bad those high-def capable FTA receivers are so pricey.

Cheers,
Red

 

[Tron]

Why the stationary at 123w?

Galaxy 10 has all of the Equity programming, and is therefore an important satellite to have an LNB pointed at all the time. Also, since cross-pole interference from 121w reduces the signal quality on G-10R, a larger dish makes for a more stable signal. My toroidal will be aimed from 82w to 121w (40 degrees arc), so it wouldn't pick up G-10R at 123w.

If you can spare the room for an extra dish, G-10R is a great satellite to fix a dish on.

 

[bigOleB]

That seems to be the trend around here.

Fix one to G10, move another about the arc.