Plan to "somewhat" retiring Roberto Clemente's #21 may gather some steam....

[salsadancer7]

Dying exactly the way he did, when he did, did wonders for his "legend". Except for the batting titles, his numbers don't differ much from Vada Pinson's.

In the all-star game thread here, someone suggested that surely, Clemente would not have considered skipping the all-star game, but he typically missed more games due to nagging, nuisance type injuries than any all-star outfielder of his era. I saw him as his generation's JD Drew.

The prevailing "discrimination" incurred by non-white players of his era was simply that the fans tended to ignore them.

Is that what you SAW or were told? Because if you ask ANY latino ball player, ESPECIALLY those that were black or of dark skin color....they would have PREFFERED to be ignored than to be treated the way they were.

As far as stats are concerned: You must have looked at the stats with your eyes closed!

-Seasons hitting over .300: Pinson 4....Clemente 13
-Batting AVG OVER .330: Pinson 1.....Clemente 6
-Batting titles: Pinson.... ZERO ... Clemente 4
-Pinson had 243 hits LESS than Clemente in the same amount of seasons.
-Pinson came in the top 10 MVP voting ONCE. Clemente was in the top 10 voting 7times winning it once.
-Lifetime batting AVG: Pinson .286 ...Clemente .317
-Clemente was a 15 time All Star, Pinson was went 4 times.
-Clemente won the Gold Glove from 1961 to 1972...12 STRAIGHT years. Pinson, ONCE.

After ALL that, maybe you meant Pinson was JD Drew....NOT Clemente. EVEN if Clemente had died, he would have made the HOF without a doubt during his era.

 

[AntAltMike]

Seasons of 100 or more RBI, Pinson 2, Clemente 2
Seasons of 100 or more runs scored, Pinson 4, Clemente 3
Seasons of 200 or more hits, Clemente 4, Pinson 3
Seasons of 20 or more homers, Pinson 7 Clemente 3
Seasons of 30 or more doubles Pinson 7 Clemente 4
Seasons of 10 or more triples Pinson 5, Clemente 9
Seasons of 20 stolen bases, Pinson 9, Clemente 0
Seasons over 150 games played Pinson 9 (consecutive)

Most Similar by Ages (Courtesy Baseball Reference)

21 Tris Speaker
22 Les Mann
23 Les Mann
24 Terry Puhl
25 Claudell Washington
26 Carl Crawford
27 Carl Crawford
28 Carl Crawford
29 Freddie Lindstrom
30 Freddie Lindstrom
31 Al Oliver
32 Al Oliver
33 Al Oliver
34 Vada Pinson
35 Vada Pinson
36 Vada Pinson
37 Goose Goslin

Gold Gloves are a JOKE. In that pre-cable, pre-satellite TV era, most of the voters only see each candidate play a dozen or fewer games, and in the case of voting for outfielders, they might not even see a candidate handle a difficult chance. Once a top player wins a few one, he gets to keep winning it until he approaches retirement. Carl Yastrzemski and Mike Schmidt probably didn't deserve half of the Gold Gloves they won, and Greg Nettles and Buddy Bell were both better fielders than Brooks Robinson was when Robinson won his last several years. . There is no way Clemente was one of the three top outfielders when he was in his mid to late 30s.

We used to call Clemente "Fab". Tony Kubek would introduce him at the begining of interviews as, "the fabulous Roberto Clemente and say, ""Oh Roberto, you are such a fabulous outfielder, tell us about the fabulous throw you made in the fifth inning." Clemente didn't like being interviewed except by reporters who fawned over him.

 

[AntAltMike]

Puhleezzzze!!.........That's like comparing John Lackey to Nolan Ryan!!

Nolan Ryan's career winning percentage was .524. Lackey's is 574. They each have won exactly 32 games more than they lost, but it took Ryan 26 seasons to do so, making him the greatest .500 pitcher in baseball history. When he left one team after a 16-14 season and its general manager was asked how he could possibly replace him, he replied that he'd just get two guys to go 8-7.

Nolan hooked up with steroid pioneer Tom House in 1985, and then he did things that are humanly impossible for a person in that age range over the next decade. What does Nolan Ryan have to say about PEDs? Not much.

 

[salsadancer7]

Seasons of 100 or more RBI, Pinson 2, Clemente 2
Seasons of 100 or more runs scored, Pinson 4, Clemente 3
Seasons of 200 or more hits, Clemente 4, Pinson 3
Seasons of 20 or more homers, Pinson 7 Clemente 3
Seasons of 30 or more doubles Pinson 7 Clemente 4
Seasons of 10 or more triples Pinson 5, Clemente 9
Seasons of 20 stolen bases, Pinson 9, Clemente 0
Seasons over 150 games played Pinson 9 (consecutive)

Most Similar by Ages (Courtesy Baseball Reference)

21 Tris Speaker
22 Les Mann
23 Les Mann
24 Terry Puhl
25 Claudell Washington
26 Carl Crawford
27 Carl Crawford
28 Carl Crawford
29 Freddie Lindstrom
30 Freddie Lindstrom
31 Al Oliver
32 Al Oliver
33 Al Oliver
34 Vada Pinson
35 Vada Pinson
36 Vada Pinson
37 Goose Goslin

Gold Gloves are a JOKE. In that pre-cable, pre-satellite TV era, most of the voters only see each candidate play a dozen or fewer games, and in the case of voting for outfielders, they might not even see a candidate handle a difficult chance. Once a top player wins a few one, he gets to keep winning it until he approaches retirement. Carl Yastrzemski and Mike Schmidt probably didn't deserve half of the Gold Gloves they won, and Greg Nettles and Buddy Bell were both better fielders than Brooks Robinson was when Robinson won his last several years. . There is no way Clemente was one of the three top outfielders when he was in his mid to late 30s.

We used to call Clemente "Fab". Tony Kubek would introduce him at the begining of interviews as, "the fabulous Roberto Clemente and say, ""Oh Roberto, you are such a fabulous outfielder, tell us about the fabulous throw you made in the fifth inning." Clemente didn't like being interviewed except by reporters who fawned over him.

So making the all star team 12 years in a row to Pinson's 1 apparently means nothing? Being in the top 10 MVP voting 8 times, winning it once meant nothing either? I will admit that he is my idol.... And Pinson was a good ball player, but you ask ANY ball player in his era that either played with him or against him and they will tell you the same...he was more than likely on of the top 10 or 15 ball players in his era.

 

[raoul5788]

Dying exactly the way he did, when he did, did wonders for his "legend". Except for the batting titles, his numbers don't differ much from Vada Pinson's.

In the all-star game thread here, someone suggested that surely, Clemente would not have considered skipping the all-star game, but he typically missed more games due to nagging, nuisance type injuries than any all-star outfielder of his era. I saw him as his generation's JD Drew.

The prevailing "discrimination" incurred by non-white players of his era was simply that the fans tended to ignore them.

There are legitimate comparisons to be made between Clemente and Pinson. There are NONE between Clemente and Drew.

 

[salsadancer7]

There are legitimate comparisons to be made between Clemente and Pinson. There are NONE between Clemente and Drew.

I am curious...like what?

 

[raoul5788]

AntAltMike listed many legitimate comparisons between Clemente and Pinson. I'm not saying Pinson was as good as Clemente, but he was very good, even under appreciated.

 

[riffjim4069]

I admired Roberto Clemente as a player and humanitarian, but I am 100% opposed to retiring a players number across the league for any reason. Now, would I be in favor of retiring Jesus H. Christ's number? Sure, but that Son of a God had better have a .400 batting average, belted-out more than 1000 homers, stolen more than 1000 bases, and turned water into beer for the fans or he's SOL.

 

[salsadancer7]

I admired Roberto Clemente as a player and humanitarian, but I am 100% opposed to retiring a players number across the league for any reason. Now, would I be in favor of retiring Jesus H. Christ's number? Sure, but that Son of a God had better have a .400 batting average, belted-out more than 1000 homers, stolen more than 1000 bases, and turned water into beer for the fans or he's SOL.

LOL....BUT, they are not completely retiring his number.

You have become quite the comedian lately... LOL!

 

[salsadancer7]

AntAltMike listed many legitimate comparisons between Clemente and Pinson. I'm not saying Pinson was as good as Clemente, but he was very good, even under appreciated.

13 All-Star appearances, 11 as a starter, being voted MVP and finishing in the top 10 voting 8 times and hitting above .300 13 out of his 18 season, hitting above .330 in his career 6 times....COMPLETELY and totally sets him apart. Not saying Vida was a bad player because he was a very good player, but not in the same league as Clemente.

 

[cybok0]

13 All-Star appearances, 11 as a starter, being voted MVP and finishing in the top 10 voting 8 times and hitting above .300 13 out of his 18 season, hitting above .330 in his career 6 times....COMPLETELY and totally sets him apart. Not saying Vida was a bad player because he was a very good player, but not in the same league as Clemente.

Since there isn't much video of Roberto playing people just wont understand just how good he was. I'm too young to remember him but my dad told me of how players didn't run from third to home much when he caught the ball.

 

[salsadancer7]

Since there isn't much video of Roberto playing people just wont understand just how good he was. I'm too young to remember him but my dad told me of how players didn't run from third to home much when he caught the ball.

I saw him play when I was 7 and 8 years and tons of 8mm film my grandfather had on him. There was no better RF in the game in the 60s...NONE.

Got to youtube and do a search on "Sportscentury-Roberto Clemente". There are four 5 or 6 minutes parts about him....for those who have not seen it. It was done by ESPN.

EDIT: Here is the last video ever shot of Clemente before he died in a baseball uniform.

?Roberto Clemente at BP in Leon 11/22/72?‏ - YouTube

 

[riffjim4069]

You have become quite the comedian lately... LOL!

I disagree...it's just that my sardonic wit is subtle and/or sometimes disturbing.

 

[cybok0]

I saw him play when I was 7 and 8 years and tons of 8mm film my grandfather had on him. There was no better RF in the game in the 60s...NONE.

Got to youtube and do a search on "Sportscentury-Roberto Clemente". There are four 5 or 6 minutes parts about him....for those who have not seen it. It was done by ESPN.

EDIT: Here is the last video ever shot of Clemente before he died in a baseball uniform.

?Roberto Clemente at BP in Leon 11/22/72?‏ - YouTube

Thanks, those were good videos.

 

[raoul5788]

13 All-Star appearances, 11 as a starter, being voted MVP and finishing in the top 10 voting 8 times and hitting above .300 13 out of his 18 season, hitting above .330 in his career 6 times....COMPLETELY and totally sets him apart. Not saying Vida was a bad player because he was a very good player, but not in the same league as Clemente.

As I said before, there are legitimate comparisons, but Clemente was better, no doubt.

 

[salsadancer7]

As I said before, there are legitimate comparisons, but Clemente was better, no doubt.

I mean Pinson was more of power hitter than Clemente...there is no doubt there.

 

[salsadancer7]

Thanks, those were good videos.

I have a TON of 8mm stuff my grandfather gave me before he passed away that I am looking for a decent price to convert them to DVDs. I have a few friends in the media business that are shopping around for me. Once I convert them, I will store them properly because I will never give the originals up.

 

[raoul5788]

I mean Pinson was more of power hitter than Clemente...there is no doubt there.

Not really. Clemente averaged 299 tb, Pinson 280. Their hr totals were very similar, Clemente hit more triples, fewer doubles. Clemente's ba was a lot higher.

 

[Derwin0]

None of this shows me why his number (as opposed to many others) should be retired across baseball.

He was a great player (so were many others)
He was a great person outside the game (so were many others)
He faced racism (again, so did many others)

 

[cybok0]

None of this shows me why his number (as opposed to many others) should be retired across baseball.

He was a great player (so were many others)
He was a great person outside the game (so were many others)
He faced racism (again, so did many others)

IMO if they retire his number on other teams Latin players won't get to wear his number like they do now and they won't be able to show their respect for him like they do.