The vastly defensively over-rated Derek Jeter's wild throw on a routine double play causes Jason Giambi to re-injury his back. I hope this hurts the Yankee's playoff chances and maybe some folks eyes will be opened and the Pretty Faced Jeter's defensive skills finally will be fairly judged. I am sure there is no hope in the New York media for this to happen but it is fairly obvious that Jeter can't now or never could carry the jockstrap of Omar Vizquel from a defensive standpoint. Of course Giambi's a stiff defensively at first but he did make a very good play to save another of Jeter's poor throws.
Over-rated Jeter Causes Injury to Giambi
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Omar Vizquel is probably one of the best if not the best overall shortstops of all time. I have to be a little biased though because I am a Reds fan and put Dave Concepcion and Barry Larkin in the mix. Larkin was just as good as Ozzie Smith when they were playing but I think Smith got more recognition because he did that stupid backflip before coming to his position on the field. Smith never won a MVP award where Larkin did and Concepcion was the first player to use the astroturf when throwing the ball to first.
rocatman said:
Well, when he makes one of those plays throwing from the air and makes an accurate throw no one says anything. Like the one he made to Cano on the Weekend which saved the game. It goes both ways.
rocatman said:
Who ever said jeter was as good as or better than omar vizquel defensively?
You said like a typical yankee hater. Jeter is a good fielder, not great like visquel but offensively vizquel isn't the player jeter is so whats your point of him being over rated other than you just don't like him? I'm sure even vizquel or ozzie smith threw a ball of line from time to time.
DobyMax said:
Such tremendous logic. Not!!!! The number of World Series championships the Yankees have won recently is completely irrelevant to the defensive capability of Jeter or the way the New York and national media over-rate his defensive capabilities. Of course often Gold Gloves are given to players because of their offensive capabilities. The way the media votes sometimes for Gold Gloves, I am surprised that Manny Ramirez hasn't won a Gold Glove yet. He often is near the top in the league in outfielder assists but no one in their right mind would vote for him. Then again the beat writer in the Cleveland newspaper today posed the question of whether the Indians would win the division or wild card if they won all their remaining games knowing that they are 1.5 games behind the White Sox and have 3 more games left with them. Unfortunately many fans buy this type of (non) - thinking and this is the same kind of thinking that you appear to have used when you posted.
Jeter is a total "team" player ... I'd have him on my team anyday. Oh ... by the way ... who's in first? .... hmmmmm?
sidekick said:
Whether Jeter is a total "team" player is also irrelevant to the argument about him being over-rated defensively. Yes, the Yankees are in first and will probably win that division but Cleveland has a slightly better overall record. Perhaps by the end of the year Cleveland will be in first place as well but making the playoffs is what really matters as the Red Sox proved last year. Sorry for bringing up the embarrassment of last year's playoffs (not really!!!). I guess the 22-0 drubbing by Cleveland last year was just a warm up for the playoffs. By the way, the Yankee's team payroll is 5 times that of Cleveland and the left side of the Yankee's infield (Jeter and Rodriguez) makes $2.5 million more than the entire Cleveland roster.
Can you say Ozzie Smith!! Standard of excellence as a fielder.
I am a Yankee fan and Jeter is above average fielder (not the best) but he always goes the extra mile to help win and a 300 batting average doesn't hurt!!
I am a Yankee fan and Jeter is above average fielder (not the best) but he always goes the extra mile to help win and a 300 batting average doesn't hurt!!
rocatman said:
I don't know who said jeter is the greatest defensively THey certainly don't say that about him in NY. Maybe they hype him that way in cleveland because of the butcher the indians have at short right now. Compared to mr. Peralta i guess anyone is better.
ALso i wouldn't talk about yankees payroll becasue i do remember a certain team in cleveland not to long ago that ran their team the same way until the owener got cheap. If my memory serves me i also remember a team that choked angainst a team from florida the one time they had a chance to win with there bloated payroll so calm down. Your team is doing well right now why the hell do you care about the yankees?
This is where we differ. I don't find Jeter particularly attractive. Certainly wouldn't go so far as to call him "pretty". Just sayin'.rocatman said:
liquidnw said:I don't know who said jeter is the greatest defensively THey certainly don't say that about him in NY. Maybe they hype him that way in cleveland because of the butcher the indians have at short right now. Compared to mr. Peralta i guess anyone is better.
Actually Peralta's defensive number's in this his first full season in the major's compare favorably to Jeter's first full year. Peralta - 18 errors in 606 total chances compared to 22 errors in 710 total chances for Jeter back in 1996. Offensively this year it could be argued that Peralta has better numbers than Jeter. Peralta - .293 batting average, 23 homers, 77 RBI, 80 runs scored, OPS .889 in 481 at bats. Jeter - .308 batting average, 17 homers, 63 RBI, 116 runs scored, OPS .833 in 622 at bats. By the way Jeter makes 60 times what Peralta makes.
Back in the mid to late 90s the Cleveland payroll was up in the top 5 in the majors but was never as high as the Yankees. The team has since been sold to Larry Dolan the brother of Charles Dolan of Cablevision/Voom and their payroll is now near the bottom. I don't think any Yankee supporter should be talking about another team choking at this time especially referring back to 1997 since the Yankees could be accused of it versus Boston, Florida, Arizona and the Angels in recent years.
Once again it just shows the just plain jealousy. Your in cleveland and your team is doing well and you feel the need to go on a message board to trash the yankees & jeter. Win a championships then we can talk. When was the last time the indians were even in the playoffs. As far as payroll the yankees payroll only sky rocketed to this proportion since the lost to the diamondbacks. For most of the 90s cleveland, boston and the yankess were among the top in the american league so what was your excuse then. Just becasue your owner chooses to run the team like he is in a small market don't come on here acting like your lowley indians can't afford to sign anyone or that they decided to do things the "right way". Basically your owner is cheap in a big market with a brand new stadium so cool it with the small market act.
As for the yankees choking sure they did agaisn't the bo sox,arizona, and the angels but at least they were there after winning 4 of 5. I will take that comment from a diamondback,angel,florida and bo sox fan but not from a indian fan whose team has sucked since they lost to florida and just because theyre or doing well this year finds the need to start bashing the yankees. Worry about the three you have comming up with the white sox. I do tell you one thing I see no difference between cleavland and the white sox. Both just overated and if they were to play the yankees, boxsox or angels in the playoffs they wouldn't fare to well and ironically the indians have a loosing record agains all three of those teams. Beat up on the royals,detroit and minisota all you want when they play a real team we will see what happens. If anyone is getting overhyped its the indians. They're the bandwagon team that the sports commentators are jumping on right now like they did with the orioles early then the white sox and now the indians.
As far as the numbers thank you for showing your ignorance. YOu want to compare a guy who for most of his career bats leadoff or second to a guy that bats 3rd & 4th in a lineup? Jeters job isn't to drive in runs its to get on base and score runs which is why he has close to 20 more walks, 40 more runs scored, 50 more hits and a 20 point higher OBS. All in only 18 more games. Don't think peralta was going to be batting .700 and drawing a walk a game in the 18 games that jeter has on him. Even in jeters rookie season he has 40 more hits in only 20 more games. Not to mention peralta has no speed at SS. Hes basically a clubber which they found him a position to play. Only thing peralta does better than jeter is hit home runs. WHen he makes a big defensive play in a big spot in the playoff we will see if he is on jeters level even in his rookie season. Lets not forget jeter played great for the World Series champs that year.
Please just enjoy your team winning while it lasts and stop worring about jeter and the yanks. YOu seem to have the same sindrom the mets fans have. NO matter how well your team is doing you feel the need to talk about the yankees short commings instead of how great your team is. This is a TV & technology board but yopu felt the need to post about jeter making a bad throw? I say major case of penis envy.
As for the yankees choking sure they did agaisn't the bo sox,arizona, and the angels but at least they were there after winning 4 of 5. I will take that comment from a diamondback,angel,florida and bo sox fan but not from a indian fan whose team has sucked since they lost to florida and just because theyre or doing well this year finds the need to start bashing the yankees. Worry about the three you have comming up with the white sox. I do tell you one thing I see no difference between cleavland and the white sox. Both just overated and if they were to play the yankees, boxsox or angels in the playoffs they wouldn't fare to well and ironically the indians have a loosing record agains all three of those teams. Beat up on the royals,detroit and minisota all you want when they play a real team we will see what happens. If anyone is getting overhyped its the indians. They're the bandwagon team that the sports commentators are jumping on right now like they did with the orioles early then the white sox and now the indians.
As far as the numbers thank you for showing your ignorance. YOu want to compare a guy who for most of his career bats leadoff or second to a guy that bats 3rd & 4th in a lineup? Jeters job isn't to drive in runs its to get on base and score runs which is why he has close to 20 more walks, 40 more runs scored, 50 more hits and a 20 point higher OBS. All in only 18 more games. Don't think peralta was going to be batting .700 and drawing a walk a game in the 18 games that jeter has on him. Even in jeters rookie season he has 40 more hits in only 20 more games. Not to mention peralta has no speed at SS. Hes basically a clubber which they found him a position to play. Only thing peralta does better than jeter is hit home runs. WHen he makes a big defensive play in a big spot in the playoff we will see if he is on jeters level even in his rookie season. Lets not forget jeter played great for the World Series champs that year.
Please just enjoy your team winning while it lasts and stop worring about jeter and the yanks. YOu seem to have the same sindrom the mets fans have. NO matter how well your team is doing you feel the need to talk about the yankees short commings instead of how great your team is. This is a TV & technology board but yopu felt the need to post about jeter making a bad throw? I say major case of penis envy.
Here's some answers to some of your questions along with the information that will demonstrate the ridiculousness of some of your assertions. Cleveland last made the playoffs in 2001 winning the AL Central with a 91-71 record. They lost that year to Seattle in the ALDS in five games after Seattle won a record 116 games. Cleveland also won the AL Central in 1998 and 1999 and missed the wildcard by 1 game in 2000. So your assertion that Cleveland has sucked since they lost to Florida in the 1997 World Series is completely wrong. Yes they only won 74 and 68 games in 2002 and 2003 but last year their record was 80-82 which I don't consider sucking. In fact the 1997 team that went to the World Series only won 86 in the regular season.
In terms of Cleveland being a small or large market, look at the DMA numbers from this website:
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/15
Granted that Toronto is not listed because it is in Canada but I think it is a larger market than Cleveland. Otherwise only Baltimore and Kansas City are smaller and Baltimore up to this year also had Washington, D.C. to draw from exclusively. I still think most folks would consider Baltimore a larger market than Cleveland even with a team in D.C. Three other AL teams share their market with a NL team, N.Y., Chicago and Oakland. Of these three I believe only Oakland could be considered a smaller market than Cleveland. This makes Cleveland the third smallest market in the AL. Cleveland plays in Jacobs field that opened in 1994. Since then 12 other parks have been opened in the major leagues so to consider Jacobs Field a "brand new stadium" is really stretching the truth. There were definitely special circumstances for Cleveland to have such a high payroll in the mid to late 90's that directly relates to them selling out the place every game for 4 plus years thus guaranteeing massive ticket sale revenue along with parking and concessions. Besides for Jacobs Field being new back then, the fact that the Cleveland Browns left town created a huge sports dollar vacuum that the Indians gladly sucked up. In addition the Cavaliers also stunk for the most part during that time.
In regards to Cleveland's record against N.Y., Boston and the Angels, yes they have losing records against all of them but of those teams they have only played N.Y. in the second half and won 2 out of 3. Cleveland was only 6 games over .500 at the All-Star break and they have obviously played significantly better baseball since then.
When I posted comparing Jeter's offensive numbers to Peralta's, I did paraphrase it with "It could be argued" so I think there arguments can be made for both players. Many baseball experts utilize the OPS number that I quoted which combines On Base Percentage with Slugging Percentage. The OPS stat tries to level the playing field between sluggers and lead-off guys and Peralta's OPS is over 60 points higher. I will say that Jeter is a better fielder than Peralta right now but I still think in the minds of a lot of folks especially in the media, Jeter is way over-rated defensively.
By the way although this is a "TV & technology" site, this forum is titled "The Sports Section". Your fascination with the word "penis" probably distracted you.
In terms of Cleveland being a small or large market, look at the DMA numbers from this website:
http://ekb.dbstalk.com/15
Granted that Toronto is not listed because it is in Canada but I think it is a larger market than Cleveland. Otherwise only Baltimore and Kansas City are smaller and Baltimore up to this year also had Washington, D.C. to draw from exclusively. I still think most folks would consider Baltimore a larger market than Cleveland even with a team in D.C. Three other AL teams share their market with a NL team, N.Y., Chicago and Oakland. Of these three I believe only Oakland could be considered a smaller market than Cleveland. This makes Cleveland the third smallest market in the AL. Cleveland plays in Jacobs field that opened in 1994. Since then 12 other parks have been opened in the major leagues so to consider Jacobs Field a "brand new stadium" is really stretching the truth. There were definitely special circumstances for Cleveland to have such a high payroll in the mid to late 90's that directly relates to them selling out the place every game for 4 plus years thus guaranteeing massive ticket sale revenue along with parking and concessions. Besides for Jacobs Field being new back then, the fact that the Cleveland Browns left town created a huge sports dollar vacuum that the Indians gladly sucked up. In addition the Cavaliers also stunk for the most part during that time.
In regards to Cleveland's record against N.Y., Boston and the Angels, yes they have losing records against all of them but of those teams they have only played N.Y. in the second half and won 2 out of 3. Cleveland was only 6 games over .500 at the All-Star break and they have obviously played significantly better baseball since then.
When I posted comparing Jeter's offensive numbers to Peralta's, I did paraphrase it with "It could be argued" so I think there arguments can be made for both players. Many baseball experts utilize the OPS number that I quoted which combines On Base Percentage with Slugging Percentage. The OPS stat tries to level the playing field between sluggers and lead-off guys and Peralta's OPS is over 60 points higher. I will say that Jeter is a better fielder than Peralta right now but I still think in the minds of a lot of folks especially in the media, Jeter is way over-rated defensively.
By the way although this is a "TV & technology" site, this forum is titled "The Sports Section". Your fascination with the word "penis" probably distracted you.
Point is you team is doing really well right now why the hell do you feel the need to come on here to kill jeter. Die he turn you down for a date or autograph or something? Like i said you have the big brother sindrome that mets fans suffer from. Trust me no one in NY gives a damn about how anyone on the indians play other than the wins/loss coloum right now.
If its all about the TV market then explain to me how tampa has on 300k less homes than atlanta but some how gets dwarfted in payroll. It also has to do with weither what aver city is a baseball town and cleveland was a very good baseball town and they filled there statidum until your owner got cheap.
YOu really need to make up you mind what your trying to say though. You come on here saying the media over rates jeter. Now you say people in the media know jeter is over rated which is it? Who the hell is over rating him then? Go ask anyone the isn't an obvious yankees hater like you if jeter is over rated. I know evertime i hear sports comentator or writers talk about jeter they always say his worth isn't in his numbers but in his leadership and ability to make the big play when needed more often then not. I'm sure though you would love to have the "over rated" jeter on your team any day. I'm done with this thread as I see that the root of your argument is just plain jealousy. I leave you with this, enjoy your indians winning while is last and stop worrying about jeter. Now have you last word and spew some more jealous propaganda.
If its all about the TV market then explain to me how tampa has on 300k less homes than atlanta but some how gets dwarfted in payroll. It also has to do with weither what aver city is a baseball town and cleveland was a very good baseball town and they filled there statidum until your owner got cheap.
YOu really need to make up you mind what your trying to say though. You come on here saying the media over rates jeter. Now you say people in the media know jeter is over rated which is it? Who the hell is over rating him then? Go ask anyone the isn't an obvious yankees hater like you if jeter is over rated. I know evertime i hear sports comentator or writers talk about jeter they always say his worth isn't in his numbers but in his leadership and ability to make the big play when needed more often then not. I'm sure though you would love to have the "over rated" jeter on your team any day. I'm done with this thread as I see that the root of your argument is just plain jealousy. I leave you with this, enjoy your indians winning while is last and stop worrying about jeter. Now have you last word and spew some more jealous propaganda.
