OTA HD Question
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Yes LG and Samsung ATSC receivers are more sensitive and are better at rejecting multipath than Echostar. See avsforum for info/pricing/reviews
In my opinion no and yes. 
: Let me explain...
If you're using a top of the line antenna and preamp, then I will assume you are a fair distance from your local broadcast towers and do not suffer from multipath. All my locals are deep-fringe (weak signal) and I have clear line of sight to all tower locations. I have two "highly tuned" CM-4228s w/matching CM-7775 preamps, and both antenna systems are properly grounded: mast, RG-6, and surge surpressed twice indoors. The antennas work almost perfectly at receiving locals from: DC (55+ miles), Richmond VA (51+ miles), Charlottesville VA (53+ miles) and even Baltimore MD (90+ miles) during the evening hours. Although the signal levels may vary by device, all my receivers work equally well: Dish 811, Dish 942, VOOM, Mits w/integrated 8-VSB/QAM, Samsung w/integrated 8-VSB/QAM, Sony w/integrated 8-VSB/QAM. The only distinction I am willing to make is that the Sony appears to be a little more sensitive in dealing with borderline signals being send from a couple of the local broadcasters not operating at full-power and/or who are operating with a temporary antenna (low antenna height).
Given my location and clear line of sight, it's a properly tuned antenna in addition to the high-gain low-noise preamp that is responsible for my excellent OTA reception. In my case, 8-VSB works as advertised in just about any 3rd of 4th generation receiver. Multipath is clearly another issue. Although I not have intimate experience dealing with multipath issues, it has been clearly documented that the LG 5th generation 8-VSB chips are exceptional at dealing with these issues. As far as know, the 5th generation chip is only available in certain LG HDTVs, but are rumored to be coming out in the new DirecTV HD DVR. I don't know if they will be available in soon to be released 411 and 962...but I doubt it.
Is there anything you can do to increase your reception? Yes, you can always create vertical and horizontal antenna stacks! I tried verically stacking two CM-4228s a couple years ago. Did it work any better...marginally, but it was a huge, ugly pain in the arse experience. Again, if your problem is weak signals and not multipath your best course of action (besides a well tuned antenna) would be to add an ultra low-noise preamp. Currently, I am using the CM-7775 UHF preamp that has +26db gain and +2db noise. However, there is company in the UK that makes an ultra low-noise preamp that has +20db gain and only +0.4db of noise. In theory, this ultra low-noise preamp will give the same results as my CM-4228 dipoles being 50% larger. Sounds great, huh! I was going to try one, but they are very expensive...and you get further hosed by the current exchange rates (weak dollar). Basically, the preamp, power supply and weather protector are around $350 USD. I would have purchase one if it weren't for:
1. My current antennas are working well. Those broadcaster currently operating at less than full power will be required to be at full power by July 2006. Plus, I hardly watch those channels.
2. A CM-7775 is only around $65 w/shipping. While I can afford an ultra low-noise preamp, I would rather use my money for something else.
3. I would hate to spend $$$ to discover it didn't significantly improve my reception...especially when I don't have any real issues.
4. If the wife finds out I spent more money on OTA antennas, it lights out for watachi.
Anyway, I have attached a price quotation, with a link to the company website, if you're interested in this product.
: Let me explain...If you're using a top of the line antenna and preamp, then I will assume you are a fair distance from your local broadcast towers and do not suffer from multipath. All my locals are deep-fringe (weak signal) and I have clear line of sight to all tower locations. I have two "highly tuned" CM-4228s w/matching CM-7775 preamps, and both antenna systems are properly grounded: mast, RG-6, and surge surpressed twice indoors. The antennas work almost perfectly at receiving locals from: DC (55+ miles), Richmond VA (51+ miles), Charlottesville VA (53+ miles) and even Baltimore MD (90+ miles) during the evening hours. Although the signal levels may vary by device, all my receivers work equally well: Dish 811, Dish 942, VOOM, Mits w/integrated 8-VSB/QAM, Samsung w/integrated 8-VSB/QAM, Sony w/integrated 8-VSB/QAM. The only distinction I am willing to make is that the Sony appears to be a little more sensitive in dealing with borderline signals being send from a couple of the local broadcasters not operating at full-power and/or who are operating with a temporary antenna (low antenna height).
Given my location and clear line of sight, it's a properly tuned antenna in addition to the high-gain low-noise preamp that is responsible for my excellent OTA reception. In my case, 8-VSB works as advertised in just about any 3rd of 4th generation receiver. Multipath is clearly another issue. Although I not have intimate experience dealing with multipath issues, it has been clearly documented that the LG 5th generation 8-VSB chips are exceptional at dealing with these issues. As far as know, the 5th generation chip is only available in certain LG HDTVs, but are rumored to be coming out in the new DirecTV HD DVR. I don't know if they will be available in soon to be released 411 and 962...but I doubt it.
Is there anything you can do to increase your reception? Yes, you can always create vertical and horizontal antenna stacks! I tried verically stacking two CM-4228s a couple years ago. Did it work any better...marginally, but it was a huge, ugly pain in the arse experience. Again, if your problem is weak signals and not multipath your best course of action (besides a well tuned antenna) would be to add an ultra low-noise preamp. Currently, I am using the CM-7775 UHF preamp that has +26db gain and +2db noise. However, there is company in the UK that makes an ultra low-noise preamp that has +20db gain and only +0.4db of noise. In theory, this ultra low-noise preamp will give the same results as my CM-4228 dipoles being 50% larger. Sounds great, huh! I was going to try one, but they are very expensive...and you get further hosed by the current exchange rates (weak dollar). Basically, the preamp, power supply and weather protector are around $350 USD. I would have purchase one if it weren't for:
1. My current antennas are working well. Those broadcaster currently operating at less than full power will be required to be at full power by July 2006. Plus, I hardly watch those channels.
2. A CM-7775 is only around $65 w/shipping. While I can afford an ultra low-noise preamp, I would rather use my money for something else.
3. I would hate to spend $$$ to discover it didn't significantly improve my reception...especially when I don't have any real issues.
4. If the wife finds out I spent more money on OTA antennas, it lights out for watachi.
Anyway, I have attached a price quotation, with a link to the company website, if you're interested in this product.
I'll tell you one big difference between Dish offerings and those from DTV, LG, Samsung and Motorola - when you lose your satellite signal with Dish; you lose your OTA reception.
Hmmm. I recall losing sat reception for a few minutes during thurderstorm and I kept watching OTA on my 942 without a problem. Maybe I'm wrong?
Endorphin said:
Like Satellite Expert noted, the answer depends on what your problem is. If it is weak distance signals, then changing ATSC receivers may or may not help. In this case a higher S/N ratio might help so the ultra-low noise pre-amp would be the direction to go, but first I'd suggest an antenna upgrade.
If the problem is multi-path, then yes, there are better ATSC receivers. While the holy grail seems to be 5th generation LG chips, LG isn't going to offer a standalone STB w/ them. According to tests of prototypes of other manufactures new STBs w/ the LG chip (posted in AVS Forums), these others are so far doing a poor job of implementation.
For multi-path and best all-around performance and features (e.g., HD source resolution automatically selected for display), the LG LST-4200A STB is ruputed to be the best. It has the 4th generation LG chip and implements it better than anyone else using the chip. Chip advancements and firmware advancements have been primarily in the area of signal discrimination to deal with multi-path problems. This allows the STB to chose the best of competing same frequency signals and lock it, ignoring the others.
The 811 has a 3rd generation chip by whomever. But, the P279 system upgrade made it more discriminating than it has been. Some previous upgrades also improved discrimination. I bought mine when they first arrived in 12/03 and there were many initial complaints about the 49%, no lock, w/ OTA digital broadcasts. This was low discrimination tuning that didn't do well w/ the common urban/suburb multi-path issues. However, software can only make up for so much hardware shortfall.
As to the 942, it should have a newer generation chip by whomever and some threads note that it seems to do a better job than the 811, YMMV.
riffjim4069 said:
Unless the software for the 942 hanged something or the P279 upgrade changed something, yes, you are wrong. If you search this forum you will find numerous old discussions of this issue regarding the 811 and the 921. Those discussions include a subscriber discoverd "work-around" that allowed one to reestablish OTA viewing after losing the E* signal due to rain fade. It doesn't happen in my area enough to be a problem, so I never bothered to write down the necessary keystrokes.
All you have to do is hit the menu and then select guide and then from the guide hit an ota channel and you should be able to watch your ota station. That is if you do it quickly enough. If you wait to long , sometimes the guide is no longer accessible because the receiver can't access the satellite stream any longer, and you can't see squat. IF you are already on an ota station when a thunder storm hits , you shouldn't lose any reception at all on ota stations.
Now that I have read MikeD's comments and had time to think about it, I am positive that I have continued watching OTA channels, and even flipped between OTA channels, ever since I picked up the 942 (L2.25 through L2.29). I'm not sure why you referenced the 811 and 921 since I made no mention of them....just the 942.Carl B said:
Yes I've lost satellite signal many times and the OTA keeps right on working. (As well as it can considering my 811 as compared to VOOM's STB.)
riffjim4069 said:
The author of this thread did not limit the discussion of Dish OTA DTV receivers to the 942, nor did I. The 942 may be different than the 811 and 921.
OTOH, the 811 and 921 may act differently now than last year due to software upgrades. I know that as recently as last winter, when snow build up cut my satellite signal, I couldn't change channels to an OTA channel and get reception.
Here are a couple of old threads on the topic. There were some for the 921 also. I provide this for information, not to start a peeing contest!
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=20574&highlight=811+OTA+storm
http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?t=15142&highlight=811+OTA+storm
Yes, but you quoted me and not the author of this thread, incorrectly replied to my quote, and then did nothing in the way of addressing the original poster; you did not quote the original posting nor did you start a new paragraph. Anyway, no big deal.Carl B said:
riffjim4069 said:
I thought your post was in response to the thread topic. I didn't realize that you had changed the topic of thread. I think that if you look at the thread you will see that my first post in the thread directly addressed the author's topic. Jumbo Dumbo added an additional consideration in addressing the author's topic. Your post took issue w/ Jumbo Dumbo's statement and my post took issue with yours. I guess I missed the part where you changed the thread topic exclusively to Dish 942s.
not true... we often lose our satellite reception due to large storms and are able, without fail, to watch our ota channels on our 942.
On the ExpressVU 9200 (942) if you lose your satellite reception you keep your OTA reception if you are currently viewing a OTA channel and do not try to deviate to another channel.
I assume the same holds true for Dish.
Kryspy
I assume the same holds true for Dish.
Kryspy
