OTA EPG Info Incorrect or Displaying 'Digital Service'

[MitchDeerfield]

Miami FL. WAMI. Ch. 69

69.2. Bounce TV No listings
69.3 Get TV. No listings
69.4 Grit TV. No listings


Now that everyone will be able to drop locals and use OTA instead, hopefully they should be able to fix this small technical issue.

 

[pattykay]

Cleveland, Ohio DMA

012-00 WMFD has guide data on satellite-delivered channel
068-01 WMFD (virtual channel, actual RF channel is 012-01) "Digital Service"

005-02 GRIT "Digital Service"
005-03 LAFF "Digital Service"

043-03 Grit "Digital Service"

For the above subchannels, Dish actually carries national feeds of those networks, so how hard is it to just map the guide info to the local subchannels?

Also, for the life of me, I can't figure out why the Cleveland, Ohio market needs two affiliates of Grit. It kind of ticks me off because 005-02 used to be COZI, and now I can't receive COZI at all, either OTA or on satellite, since FETV also dropped COZI.

 

[pattykay]

Dish Network satellite boxes are primarily SATELLITE boxes, NOT OTA converters, nor OTA DVR's nor HDTV's. The FCC rule does NOT apply to SAT boxes. This is how Dish is able to do--or NOT-do what it should. However, the old Dish TVPal, the now re-branded Channel Master DVR, all digital OTA converters and HDTV's must comply because they primarily tune to digital OTA. Sorry, but Dish Network satellite STB's are primarily for Satellite, not OTA viewing. A loophole, indeed.

I wonder if this is what is holding up the enabling of the second OTA tuner on the Wally. With two OTA tuners, the Wally would primarily be an OTA receiver, and then Dish would be required to fix the mess with the OTA guide data.

 

[Hall]

For the above subchannels, Dish actually carries national feeds of those networks, so how hard is it to just map the guide info to the local subchannels?

I'm not 100% on this, but I don't know that the national feeds that they carry (in the 60-90 channel range ?) are exactly like the affiliate's feeds.

 

[Hall]

and then Dish would be required to fix the mess with the OTA guide data.

Required by who ?

 

[pattykay]

I'm not 100% on this, but I don't know that the national feeds that they carry (in the 60-90 channel range ?) are exactly like the affiliate's feeds.

I know. In fact, for LAFF, I know the guide data is wrong for a few hours each night, but any guide data is better than none.

Required by who ?

Go back to DishSubLA's post that I quoted. I didn't quote the post he was replying to, so you would need to keep following the discussion backwards. Anyway, there was discussion early in this thread about digital OTA tuners being required to provide guide data by the FCC, and that Dish gets around that requirement because their receivers are primarily satellite receivers, not OTA tuners. Having a Dish receiver with more OTA tuners than satellite tuners would be a game-changer, in my opinion.

 

[MikeD-C05]

I remember when DISH made the DISH Pal DVR that was for strictly ota and it had psip guide data from the antenna and the stations themselves. There is no reason why they couldn't include this feature for the sub channels we don't get guide data for from DISH . Would rather have limited guide for a day or so out than no guide data at all. Still say they could also include the Titan App for ota stations to the hopper and let us use this guide data for out ota locals. It's free and would cost nothing for DISH to add it.

 

[Hall]

but any guide data is better than none.

I have to disagree with that. The only "positive" is that the program guide has show names and what-not filled in. If it's all wrong though, it's worthless.

 

[dare2be]

I have to disagree with that. The only "positive" is that the program guide has show names and what-not filled in. If it's all wrong though, it's worthless.

No one said it was "all wrong." Just a few hours each day.

 

[Hall]

Which hours ?

 

[DishSubLA]

I wonder if this is what is holding up the enabling of the second OTA tuner on the Wally. With two OTA tuners, the Wally would primarily be an OTA receiver, and then Dish would be required to fix the mess with the OTA guide data.

Well, I'm not certain, but I somehow doubt that is the reason. Further, there is NO requirement for TiVo to offer PSIP for its boxes capable of OTA reception, even if one ceases paying for or using the "TiVo Service" for the TiVo provided EPG data. TiVo users also pine for PSIP, but they aint gonna get it.

The economic case (not the regulatory case) was stated by Ergen himself--although many years ago--during a Charlie Chat in which he stated the reason, back then, that the old HD box (I can't remember the model number, one of the 800 or 8000's?) with OTA capability before and even years after LIL and HD LIL, Dish disabled OTA functions if no sat services were subscribed was because, " . . . that would be a very inexpensive OTA only tuner . . ." meaning he was subsidizing that box because he would get his money back with a sat subscription and was not in the business of selling really cheap OTA only boxes/DVR's back in era when such devices were NOT so cheap. Heck, even the TiVo's today are still costly and then the cost of "Service" so the TiVo functions either monthly payment or even the now re-named All-in for really huge price, sometimes ONLY available AFTER the 1st year of monthly payments. I think the Channel Master DVR is still around $300-$400 with no other fees, but still pretty expensive.

But times change, and I think I recall some claiming that the OTA tuners in the most recent boxes continue to function, without EPG, even if not having a sat subscription, but I may be wrong on that. But still, OTA functionality is all up to Dish's whims and desires and NOT under regulation as an OTA box, but as a sat box.

 

[pattykay]

Which hours ?

For LAFF, the last time I checked, there was a three-hour block of "Paid Programming" in the early morning hours on the national feed on Dish, while the local affiliate showed regularly-scheduled LAFF programming (with no guide data since that channel always says "Digital Service") the entire time. So apparently that block of LAFF programming is reserved exclusively for the local affiliates, while their programming is duplicated on both feeds the rest of the day. 21 hours per day of correct guide listings would still be better than no guide listings at all. You could still set a timer for the "Paid Programming" segments (if the guide data were duplicated on the local channel) to record Life's Funniest Moments or Funniest Pets and People, or whatever else LAFF may put in those time-slots, without needing to set a manual timer. There was a glitch awhile ago where the guide for the national feed sometimes only said "Blue Highways Programming" but that issue was fixed as far as I know.

But times change, and I think I recall some claiming that the OTA tuners in the most recent boxes continue to function, without EPG, even if not having a sat subscription, but I may be wrong on that.

It is even better than that. My deactivated receivers continue to function for OTA, with EPG. (Well, the limited EPG that Dish provides, anyway.)

 

[pattykay]

There is actually somewhat of a work-around for the missing OTA guide data on subchannels, but it requires scanning in local channels from multiple markets. 5-2 (that I listed above in post number 502) is a good example of this. When 5-2 was Live Well, I could get the guide data from 13-2 Toledo, until 13-2 switched to CW. Then, 5-2 switched to COZI, and I could get the guide data from 20-2 Detroit, until 20-2 switched to Antenna TV. In Detroit, COZI moved to a subchannel of WADL that does not have guide data. However, another one of WADL's subchannels carries GRIT, and does have guide data, so now I can use that channel to get guide data for 5-2 and 43-3. I also have the GRIT affiliate from Erie, PA (a subchannel of WFXP) scanned in, and it also does not have guide data. So, of the four GRIT affiliates in my guide, only the one in Detroit has guide data.

Unfortunately, with the Hopper and Wally series, Dish has made this work-around harder, since you would have to be in a spot where all of the channels come in at the same time, in order to get them all scanned into the guide. With the ViP receivers, it is much easier to do multiple scans, over a longer period of time, to get the additional channels added to the guide. This could mean either rotating the antenna in different directions to try to pick up additional stations, or physically taking the receiver to a different city and re-scanning the locals there, to add them to the guide.

With two OTA tuners, you can then go through the guide and set timers on the channels that don't normally come in (but have guide data) in order to mark those programs in the guide. Then, once you have set manual timers on the channels that actually come in (with no guide data) for those time-slots, you can delete the timers on the out-of-market channels. Having two OTA tuners makes it easier to do this process without having any timer conflicts.

 

[sssouthguy]

Columbus Georgia
003-01 (WRBL CBS) Digital Service
009-01 (WTVM ABC) Digital Service
028-01 (WJSP PBS) Digital Service
038-01 (WLTZ NBC) Digital Service
038-02 (WLTZ CW ) Digital Service
054-01 (WXTX FOX) Digital Service
066-01 (WLGA COZI) Normal Guide Data

All these locals have Sub Channels that also say Digital Service.
I don't really care about them just the ones listed

 

[pattykay]

Columbus Georgia
003-01 (WRBL CBS) Digital Service
009-01 (WTVM ABC) Digital Service
028-01 (WJSP PBS) Digital Service
038-01 (WLTZ NBC) Digital Service
038-02 (WLTZ CW ) Digital Service
054-01 (WXTX FOX) Digital Service
066-01 (WLGA COZI) Normal Guide Data

All these locals have Sub Channels that also say Digital Service.
I don't really care about them just the ones listed

From the link earlier in this thread, it looks like Dish is uplinking OTA guide data for all of the following channels:

Columbus, GA

OTA Program Guide Data:
3-01 WRBL TSID 0x0307, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5291)
9-01 WTVM TSID 0x0309, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5290)
28-01 WJSP TSID 0x030B, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5294)
38-01 WLTZ TSID 0x030D, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5292)
49-01 WLGA TSID 0x0071, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5295)
54-01 WXTX TSID 0x030F, Subchannel 01 (DISH Channel 5293)

Interestingly, the only one with working guide data (WLGA) is listed with a different channel number. (049-01 instead of 066-01)

 

[pattykay]

From the other site's uplink report:

Other Changes
6320 WBTS (10 HD) 61.5° 23s23 (VT/NH/MA/CT/RI) HD Boston, MA market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
8187 UNCEX (27 Local) UNC (PBS) 61.5° 18s56 (South Carolina) SD MPEG4 Greenville/Spartanburg, SC market Hidden - OTA Mapping Added (27-02)
6565 KTVZD (12 Local) BEND, OR (CW) 129° 15s10 (Central Oregon) SD Bend, OR market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
8048 WBRL (21 Local) 110° 25s12 (SE Louisiana) SD Baton Rouge, LA market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
8047 WBXH (39 Local) BATON ROUGE, LA 110° 25s12 (SE Louisiana) SD Baton Rouge, LA market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
5251 KBZK (4 HD Local) BOZEMAN, MT 129° 5s12 (NE Idaho) HD Butte, MT market Hidden - OTA Mapping Added (4-01)
8813 KRQE2 (2 Local) ALBUQUERQUE, NM (CBS) 119° 2sB08 (Albuqerque) SD Albuquerque/Santa Fe, NM market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
8819 KASA (25 Local) SANTA FE, NM (FOX) 119° 2sB08 (Albuqerque) SD Albuquerque/Santa Fe, NM market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
7143 KYUU (9 Local) BOISE, ID (CW) 110° 25s41 (West Idaho) SD Boise, ID market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
7333 WTVC2 (61 Local) CHATTANOOGA, TN (ABC) 110° 27s10 (SC Kentucky) SD Chattanooga, TN market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)
5195 KEYU (36 HD Local) BORGER, TX 61.5° 25s17 (Amarillo TX) HD Amarillo, TX market Hidden - OTA Mapping Added (36-03)
7886 WCIV2 (4 Local) CHARLESTON, SC 110° 4s2 (East Carolinas) SD Charleston, SC market Hidden - OTA Mapping Changed (Station TSID)

So, there is at least some hope that Dish is working on updating the TSID to get the OTA guide data that is already uplinked mapped correctly, and maybe even adding some new OTA subchannel guide data. Also from the same uplink report:

New Uplinks / Mappings - Channels NOT Available
14186 KLKN LINCOLN, NE (ABC) added to 110° 27s29 (SC Nebraska) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG - OTA Mapping (-01)
14186 KLKN LINCOLN, NE (ABC) added to 129° 5s20 (SC Nebraska) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG - OTA Mapping (-01)
14186 KLKN LINCOLN, NE (ABC) added to 61.5° 32s13 (Nebraska/Kansas) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG - OTA Mapping (-01)
14187 WLNE NEW BEDFORD, MA (ABC) added to 61.5° 27s28 (VT/NH/MA/CT/RI) (OTA EPG Data) No EPG - OTA Mapping (-01)

So, it looks like Dish is actually uplinking OTA EPG's with no EPG data.

 

[MikeD-C05]

IF DISH is using full Tivo metadata , why can't they finish out the ota digital sub channels . Tivo has it when you program your zipcode, so why can't DISH do the same thing for their ota locals?

 

[pattykay]

IF DISH is using full Tivo metadata , why can't they finish out the ota digital sub channels . Tivo has it when you program your zipcode, so why can't DISH do the same thing for their ota locals?

Maybe they are working on that. It might have been one of the reasons for switching guide data providers in the first place, but they had to work on fixing the glitches with guide data for national channels before they started working on new guide data for OTA local channels and subchannels.

 

[mwdxer1]

Here on the Northern Oregon Coast, several OTA channels do not have guides.
2.1 KATU ABC guide
2.2 METV guide
2.3 The Comet (No Guide)
6.1 KOIN CBS guide
6.2 Get TV guide
6.3 Decades guide
8.1 KGW NBC guide
8.2 Justice TV guide
8.3 Estrella (No guide)
10.1 KOPB PBS guide
10.2 OPB+ PBS guide
10.3 PBS Kids guide
10.4 NPR Radio (No guide)
12.1 KPTV FOX guide
12.2 COZI (No guide)
12.3 Laff (No guide)

With Dish running Laff now, I would think 12.3 would show a guide, as Get TV does for both locations.
Hopefully the OTA guide coverage will improve in the future.

 

[pattykay]

12.2 COZI (No guide)
12.3 Laff (No guide)

With Dish running Laff now, I would think 12.3 would show a guide, as Get TV does for both locations.
Hopefully the OTA guide coverage will improve in the future.

Yes, I made the same request for COZI and LAFF guide data in my earlier posts. Of course, my market might be easier because I am in the Eastern Time Zone. Does your LAFF affiliate time-shift the programming for the west coast? If so, Dish would have to delay the guide data by three hours, for it to be correct in your time zone.