oooooooook .. this noob would appreciate a word ..

[vegassatellite]

Replace that LNB.

Think of drift as being a radio knob that occassionally starts to drift away from your radio station. If it drifts too far, the static gets worse and you can't hear your station. At a digital level, your receiver is having to cope with the same situation. E-7 is a problem and will affect your weaker signals first.

 

[hyperguy]

While replacing all the barrels and fittings with the Blue ones (high Frequency). Do not forget the wall plates are barrels also usually a bolt on the back can be taken off and a new barrel put in place. I have found a lot of wall plates that are real cheap and have major issues once Sat is installed. Kevin

 

[mediafury]

Thanks for all of the input, folks. TV is desired in the house here, but it's not vital to our lives. I've been too busy to get back here. Now that the weekend is here, I'm going to dive into this some more.

Ok, let's begin with the cabling issue. It may well indeed be that. I'm willing to concede and replace it. It's the original cabling when we had the thing installed in 2003. But here's what mystifies me thoroughly about this.

First of all, just how should the connections off the LNBF look when routing them through the dish conduit back to the connections for the cable run into the house? When this guy worked on the back of it (when I was at work) back in June, he told my wife that when he installed the DP twin it wouldn't need the external switch that ran into the old set up he was replacing since it had one and therefore did so.

When I came back from work, I saw there was only ONE cable connection coming out of the LNBF itself. I didn't go up to inspect his work (that's why we paid him some serious money for, right?) It seemed to work great for a couple months and then in August, we started noticing dropouts now and then on the 110 satellite. Then in September (at the height of the baseball playoff drama development), we lost it completely, starting us on the rollercoaster we've been on ever since. The error messages about problems with your switch and noticing no pick up on the sat were observed.

When we finally got this dingdong out again (and again, while I'm at work - yeah, I know, big mistake), he goes up to the dish, changes a connection and replaces what he said was an older connection, and it works fine. Again, more money is exchanged and again I didn't inspect his work. It works for all of a week, but not before the darnedest error messages start coming in : I see this full screen notice with a Dish network logo stating Dish was working hard to restore my local access channels and that there's "no need to call." And then we noticed again that shortly after that, the same blasted error messages.
And then, that was when Mr. Dish Franchisee decided to excuse himself from my case.

Now, why did that full screen notice come up just before I lost the satellite?

When I went up to check the connections for myself, finally, I found the back of the LNBF has the two connections (one for each Sat) and found he'd connected the 119 side only to the direct cable run to our receiver. The 110 sat connection was hanging free. What the heck? Is it supposed to work that way?

Just to play around, I ordered a new LNBF and swapped it out with the one Mr. Experience put in back in June .. connecting the 110 and disconnecting the 119. The whole set up started to work again .. checking the diagnostics showed both sats connected, good signal, yada yada yada. I'm starting to get like really confused over this strange turn of events.

And then, just last night, the same bizarre scenario ocurred ALL OVER AGAIN. The DISH screen lying to me saying the channels would be restored, seguing to the switch error message, and then the diagnostics all telling me that the 110 sat is lost AGAIN ..

Let me ask some basic questions, and thanks for reading my suspense novel here ..

Does an LNBF need only one connection? Does it matter off of which side of it should be connected?

As I said, I'm ready to replace the cabling if it's bad, but if it is, why have we never had any problems with the other satellite come in like gang busters? Through this all, since June 119 has never been lost .. 110 has. I'm at my wits end and ready to abandon satellite altogether.

 

[papalittle]

cable cable cable. yes you only need to hook up only one side for 1 receiver. replace the cable.

 

[mediafury]

There are a couple things it could be... bent or too short of a stinger(usually from a loose fitting slipping), too LONG of a stinger(which causes the stinger to bend when tightened down)... bad barrel either in a wall plate, or somewhere else in the system (ground blocks go bad too).... overly kinked/damaged cabling.

OR it could just be a poorly pointed Dish.

Post your signal strength on the 110, transponder 21.

Ok, I've got 75, solid as a rock. Only all lit in red.

On 119, transponder 11, which is what comes up every time I go to check it out, it's the same signal strength. This is in all green and warbles at a high pitch.

Again, I'm just at a loss to know why one sat is OK and the other is not if the cable run's integrity is bad ..

 

[vegassatellite]

Ok, I've got 75, solid as a rock. Only all lit in red.

On 119, transponder 11, which is what comes up every time I go to check it out, it's the same signal strength. This is in all green and warbles at a high pitch.

Again, I'm just at a loss to know why one sat is OK and the other is not if the cable run's integrity is bad ..

To switch between satellites, the receiver sends out DiSEqC commands. These commands are not making it back to the LNB. So, when you go to a channel on 110, the satellite LNB isn't switching and still sending 119 so then there's an error because the system tables don't match up. 119 is a default satellite that doesn't require any DiSEqC commands to be steered to the receiver, however 110 requires an LNB B type of command. This holds true for all multi-sat LNBs except 1000.4 obviously. On external switches Port 1 is the no DiSEqC port. You shouldn't need an external switch if you have just one satellite box in your home.

Cabling can disrupt the flow of DiSEqC commands. Try a temporary jumper and see if you can get around the problem.

 

[mediafury]

To switch between satellites, the receiver sends out DiSEqC commands. These commands are not making it back to the LNB. So, when you go to a channel on 110, the satellite LNB isn't switching and still sending 119 so then there's an error because the system tables don't match up. 119 is a default satellite that doesn't require any DiSEqC commands to be steered to the receiver, however 110 requires an LNB B type of command. This holds true for all multi-sat LNBs except 1000.4 obviously. On external switches Port 1 is the no DiSEqC port. You shouldn't need an external switch if you have just one satellite box in your home.

Cabling can disrupt the flow of DiSEqC commands. Try a temporary jumper and see if you can get around the problem.

Now that explained some things in a big way. That's why I'm the noob and you guys are the senseis. Mr Experience here didn't come close to discussing this.

Thank you for taking the time to explain that .. and forgive me for my density, but how would cabling issues block the 110 commands? Are these signals that much more subtle, so much so that any cable issue at all would prevent it from getting through? This is fascinating. I appreciate any info you can share.

So when I checked the signal strength, and saw the display as I described it, what I was seeing was that the signal is there, but just not being switched to. Does that sound correct?

And it's RG-6 cable I need .. with well crimped connections .. to check this out.

As the now sadly late Studs Terkel once said (and old Studs just died a couple days ago) "curiosity never killed this cat" .. I absorb everything!

 

[tastim]

Now that explained some things in a big way. That's why I'm the noob and you guys are the senseis. Mr Experience here didn't come close to discussing this.

Thank you for taking the time to explain that .. and forgive me for my density, but how would cabling issues block the 110 commands? Are these signals that much more subtle, so much so that any cable issue at all would prevent it from getting through? This is fascinating. I appreciate any info you can share.

So when I checked the signal strength, and saw the display as I described it, what I was seeing was that the signal is there, but just not being switched to. Does that sound correct?

And it's RG-6 cable I need .. with well crimped connections .. to check this out.

As the now sadly late Studs Terkel once said (and old Studs just died a couple days ago) "curiosity never killed this cat" .. I absorb everything!

The Satellite Signal frequency is not one set frequency... it involves a range of frequencies as it is sent down the cable to your receiver. If you think graphically, picture a wave to represent 1 frequency.... now add another wave, but offset it a little from the first.... now do that millions of times... if the cable is damaged where 1 of those frequency waves peaks (each frequency will peak at a different point in the cable), you get signal attenuation... meaning that signal is now degraded, or stopped altogether and is no longer making it to the receiver how it should be. This is why Dish Network no longer allows installers to use staples as they crimp the cable and cause similar problems (that and accidental staples through cables that we all accidentally do from time to time)

I don't know how to explain this well without being able to draw it for you... I'm not an engineer.... but if you can decipher what I said, you will understand how only 1 transponder can be affected by a damaged cable.

 

[mediafury]

outstanding advice ..

The Satellite Signal frequency is not one set frequency... it involves a range of frequencies as it is sent down the cable to your receiver. If you think graphically, picture a wave to represent 1 frequency.... now add another wave, but offset it a little from the first.... now do that millions of times... if the cable is damaged where 1 of those frequency waves peaks (each frequency will peak at a different point in the cable), you get signal attenuation... meaning that signal is now degraded, or stopped altogether and is no longer making it to the receiver how it should be. This is why Dish Network no longer allows installers to use staples as they crimp the cable and cause similar problems (that and accidental staples through cables that we all accidentally do from time to time)

I don't know how to explain this well without being able to draw it for you... I'm not an engineer.... but if you can decipher what I said, you will understand how only 1 transponder can be affected by a damaged cable.

Yes, I do think graphically. You did a good job of bringing that down to earth for me also. Any kind of damage to the physical electrical integrity of a coaxial cable when it involves RF signal - especially of DSS range stuff - could indeed attentuate the signal.

The answer Vegassatellite gave and your input just gave me an epiphany and helped me remember all that stuff I learned at vocational electronics in HS (that was back when the hottest thing on two legs was Farah Fawcett and Disco was far from dead). I retained enough of it today to understand what you are saying. Great word pictures!

Thank you, gents, for my AHA moment. Ok, you guys sold me. I just got me 100 feet of RG6 and will do some inspection of the old line right now as I replace it.

I'm the kind of guy who's always willing to change and do repair work .. but unless I understand why X needs to be replaced, I have a real problem doing so. That's just how I am, I guess. I am a heritage Maytag employee who has now become absorbed into the Whirlpool collective when it bought out Maytag. I worked for 13 years at a Maytag appliance factory on a wide variety of cooking appliances on assembly and fabrication roles which really locked that inquisitive mindset into me. I went on to the Maytag call center in customer service and then became a parts specialist for the Maytag Services repair unit that Whirlpool discontinue. Now they've put me in direct parts sales here and I help sell replacement parts for the entire family of Whirlpool and Maytag brands. I get asked a lot of parts related questions which stimulate a lot of this same thinking.

Out to the scene of the crime .. will be back to post later ..

 

[mediafury]

Color me cautiously optimistic

After about a couple dozen false starts, you might see why I'm just a wee bit skeptical now ..

.. but, upon doing examination of the cabling already there, I discovered that there was one connection between lengths that involved two F connectors and a coupler just above where it came into the house that was freely exposed to the weather. After disconnection of it, I found all three parts of it corroded pretty thoroughly. I clipped them off, trimmed the existing cable and added new connectors and bought a new coupler.

I went inside and then reconnected the internal connection back to the receiver itself (I know enough not to have that connected during work on a DSS line) and ran all the switch and receiver tests. Everything looked good. The thing promptly showed reception of both sats, downloaded the program guide and has shown no sign of the transitory signal loss error screens so far, even as I zapped around on channels straddling both sats.

Woke up this morning and got local channels immediately on demand.

So far, so good ..

So had I taken the time to check that connection myself, I might have saved me 160.00. Of course, if Mr. Experience had really been a competent franchisee installer instead of a lazy opportunist who has apparently little concern for taking care of a customer, he would have found that problem in the five minutes it took me to do so. That's what he was paid for, right?

He was just too much of an unethical clown to do the right thing and do so. He even told my wife on his second visit out that he was backing away from doing satellite service and wanted to start taking it easy. My princess got the immediate impression that he didn't come with any intention on really wanting to do work (and therefore, correct HIS misdiagnoses on HIS dollar). But he was all but ready to sell us a new receiver and new service with complete installation for 175.00, too. Thankfully, we'd declined his "offer."

You never get a second chance to create a first impression. We gave him three because my wife and I really do try to give people the benefit of the doubt. This character took the benefit, filed it on our dime and then brazenly demanded more. Next stop is the E TN BBB, which he says he's a member of. I really don't expect anything from them or even know what they do .. I just want to file a last complaint and wash my hands of this guy, which, thankfully you good folks have helped to do.

As I said, so far .. so good .. Any changes this week, I will be back. No changes this week, I'll be back. THANKS everyone!

 

[vegassatellite]

Glad to see things seem to be running well for you.

 

[mediafury]

ARRRRRRRGH. Barely 10 minutes after I posted this AM, we lost everything again. AGAIN

I am contemplating doing some serious damage to something.

Once again, we've lost the 110. Once again, that blasted error message (we're working on getting your local channels back .. Don't call us ..)!

I had kind of wondered if this would happen. The old cabling with new connections was being used and somewhere else, damage must be done or something.

I came home at lunch and am now playing my last hand. I took the cable I bought, rigged it directly through a window into our apartment from the dish and will leave it connected for the next few days. It's going to be mild here, so we can take it. My princess was home working on her Ebay stuff and says it's not flickered once but she hasn't been watching it.

Let's see what happens next. If this don't do it, me and satellite TV are history.

 

[rcdallas]

The coupling your referring to is what we mean by barrel.

The barrel itself should be blue in the center, not clear or white... blue is rated others are not... though I've seen some work for quite awhile.

Replace the rest of the barrels in the system, could be in a wall plate behind the receiver.

My bet is the temp cable ran will do the trick for now.

 

[vegassatellite]

Alright, Mediafury, here's your next step if your temporary wire yields a good long-term result:

Find a suitable halfway point between the dish and receiver. This could be the splice you dressed out outside. Connect between that point and your receiver. This will introduce the dish half of the cabling to your setup. If the problem reappears, then the wiring between dish and the halfway point is suspect. Also consider the barrel if you're hooking your temp wire on to an existing barrel. If however the whole system still behaves, then find a suitable halfway point such as a wallplate, etc. to diagnose the receiver side of the current existing wiring. It's called divide and conquer. Divide your install in half and find out which half has the problem. Then divide the problem half again until you narrow it down to a single failure point.

 

[Greenhorn]

Low frequency barrels/wall plates in the line are usually the problem in these cases. The other problem could be the reflector (dish). Has that been swapped out?

 

[mediafury]

Update: We've had the dish connected and for three days and have watched it as needed. I have not wanted to leave my TV running with local networks on when I and my wife aren't watching it, but we've done so to keep an eye on it.

We haven't noticed a single loss of signal so far.

 

[BPeter]

I had a problem with a barrel connector. I was not using a Dish approved wall plate. An inspector who dropped by the day after a DIU upgrade checked it out and replaced the barrel connector. It was the line from my receiver to my 44 switch that carried the power inserter. I would have never guessed that a barrel connector could make that much of a difference and I was low volt electrician for a bit. Now if I can just figure out why my HomePlug communication is suddenly not working, but the caller id function still works on the receiver that does not have a phone line, I will be all set.

 

[mediafury]

What a difference a week makes.

Well, after running the cable, I came to the conclusion that the cabling had some terminal damage I had over looked so I decided to jettison it. I really, really, really didn't want to fool with this on my only day off last Saturday, so what do I do? I decide to start trying to replace the cabling around 5 pm or so.

That was a nightmare in terminal frustration. The adventure of crawling up in that fetid place is one I'd rather not repeat .. let's just say that I finally concluded that I couldn't run it through the attic from the dish due to the angle of the roof cutting access to the soffit where I wanted to run it. So, back to square one, I had to undo all of the prep work I did in running the cable and take it outside and run it over the roof as before.

That's when the real fun began ... and again, it was a dreary exercise of bouncing back and forth between both sides of the duplex with the sun going down and finally disappearing -- and a cold rain falling ever so briefly. It was fun, let me tell you.

After a five hour long adventure with the drama of a full moon illuminating the scene of the crime outside, and after finally getting the cable hole rebored so it would accomodate the new sat cable, I finally got it reconnected and we've had no problems.

Upon examining the old cabling, what do I find? A corroded coupling way up at the top of the run where I couldn't see it. No wonder that blasted thing didn't work. Of course, my old buddy Mr. Experience probably knew it was there and just didn't bother to climb up and change it (he did tell my wife he was "Cutting Back" on getting up on ladders). The only connection was from the dish to the 100 feet of line with the other end run directly into the apartment. Thing works fine, not a problem.

So, for now, Dish Network is still on in our house. Only the loss of the Documentary Channel, LinkTV, Free Speech TV and Ovation kept me from jettisoning this mess and getting DirecTV out. I learned a bit about satellite systems and will never call a tech again if I can help it .. thanks all!

 

[Dah-Henny]

Glad you got it up to par.

 

[8bitbytes]

What a difference a week makes... thanks all!

Bravo! Congrats for hanging in there and completing your diagnostic learning. It takes hours of pain and frustration to get past the first learning curve. After that, you will never feel like you can't handle anything your dish setup needs again.