OFFICIAL DISH / FOX ORDEAL DISCUSSION THREAD

[kcburk]

True enough but...

Here's the rub. Dish cannot sumarily "drop" all Fox chanels. These companies have a contract that compels BOTH parties to honor the deal.
Nice thought though... Dish playing hardball.

Dish doesn't have to renew the contracts. From what I've read many of those are up at the end of the month.

 

[kcburk]

Well now that the main damage is done I wonder how long Dish will hold out. I would love it if they made sports an add on package like AT120/AT120+. I would love to see the + option for 200/250/AEP. I know, it will not happen because FOX could not afford to lose half their subs (or more). How many people would really consider watching their RSN if they could save $5+/month? I have been too busy to watch mine in a while. In fact I dropped the multisport pack a couple months ago since I lost the time to watch them all.

I guess I can only dream of Dish breaking the content provider's back and start taking baby steps to a la carte.

A LA CARTE! A LA CARTE! I've been preaching that for years. Give the customer REAL choice and control of what comes into their homes! Do it, Charlie! Do it!

 

[jonesy99]

why is everyone making fox out to be the bad guy?
al they are asking for is what they think thier serice is worth.
its capitalism, and business.
if others are paying that much why shouldnt dish?
if no on pays that much then they will change thier priceing
let the market work it out

if people want it they will talk with thier wallets by leaving dish and going to someone that has it.

if you really want to lower the price talk to the sports leagues
maybe if the rights didnt cost so much they price wouldnt go up

Its also Murdoch doing what got him where he is now.

they are asking for is what they think thier serice is worth.

Problem with that is its what THEY think its worth, not what its actually worth to end users. Personally think dish had it right making sports a higher tier rather than forcing garbage down our throats. Fox seems to think that their programming is worth more than everyone elses, time will tell.

 

[kcburk]

As an AT120 subscriber I thought I didn't have a say in this fight since I'm not currently losing any channels. But I changed my mind when I saw this quote from Claude:



So if this is true then we'll know who flinched if we see our regional FSN in AT120. Then we'll see a higher than normal rate increase soon after.

I really like the AT120 package at the price it is at. If I want my local FSN then I can go to AT120+ for $5.00 more. I don't see Fox's logic except for more revenue from people who don't want their programming. If AT120 has a price increase then I may opt out for OTA, Internet, and Neflix for my programming. I'm supporting Dish in this dispute and hope they win. I also hope that everyone else gets the programming they want at an affordable price.

Programmers need to understand that consumers only have so much money to spend on TV programming. Instead of asking for more money from us maybe they should negotiate better deals with the NBA, NHL, MLB, NFL, NCAA and so forth. And maybe professional teams shouldn't be so quick to offer multi-million dollar deals to players because now everyone will be paying for these big fees even if we don't watch their games.

Amen!

 

[mdram]

Its also Murdoch doing what got him where he is now.

making money?

dish is running a 25% profit margin, so they are not doing bad either

btw newscorp is only @ 7-8%

 

[HDRoberts]

As an AT120 subscriber I thought I didn't have a say in this fight since I'm not currently losing any channels. But I changed my mind when I saw this quote from Claude:

So if this is true then we'll know who flinched if we see our regional FSN in AT120. Then we'll see a higher than normal rate increase soon after.

I really like the AT120 package at the price it is at. If I want my local FSN then I can go to AT120+ for $5.00 more. I don't see Fox's logic except for more revenue from people who don't want their programming. If AT120 has a price increase then I may opt out for OTA, Internet, and Neflix for my programming. I'm supporting Dish in this dispute and hope they win. I also hope that everyone else gets the programming they want at an affordable price.

Programmers need to understand that consumers only have so much money to spend on TV programming. Instead of asking for more money from us maybe they should negotiate better deals with the NBA, NHL, MLB, NFL, NCAA and so forth. And maybe professional teams shouldn't be so quick to offer multi-million dollar deals to players because now everyone will be paying for these big fees even if we don't watch their games.

I'm in the same boat, although I have Dish America. If we are forced to take an RSN, then it is bye-bye Dish and hello OTA, hulu, and Netflix only. You are absolutely right that all Fox wants to do is make money from people who don't care for their sports programming. That is why I am on Dish's side.

And to those on the Fox side, how can you endorse plan that will likely cause a package millions of subs have to disappear, making their bills go up majorly or causing them to have to drop pay TV all together?

 

[kcburk]

I'm in the same boat, although I have Dish America. If we are forced to take an RSN, then it is bye-bye Dish and hello OTA, hulu, and Netflix only. You are absolutely right that all Fox wants to do is make money from people who don't care for their sports programming. That is why I am on Dish's side.

And to those on the Fox side, how can you endorse plan that will likely cause a package millions of subs have to disappear, making their bills go up majorly or causing them to have to drop pay TV all together?

That's my thing. If my sub goes up, it'll have to go away. I chose Dish because @ the $$ I got channels I would actually watch. When I compared it to DTV and Comcast, it was the better deal. Dish's A120 will be $40 a month after the introductory period of 12 months. DTV's comparable base package will be $60 after their 24 month introductory period and there weren't anymore channels I would actually watch. And Comcast... don't get me started. I look at what it's going to cost me when the introduction in over. And Dish wins.

 

[NotMe546]

making money?

dish is running a 25% profit margin, so they are not doing bad either

btw newscorp is only @ 7-8%

I how much would it be if they didn't include their BS news programs.

 

[BobMurdoch]

Hey for the FX, NatGeo, and RSNs, take your best shot Rupert, I don't begrudge you (although I would respectfully point out that a 50% raise demand, if true, is nuts balls crazy in the worst economic environment in 75 years)...... But FOX? You give the channel away FREE to all those with OTA antennas, and the bandwidth was f'in GIVEN to you by the US Taxpayers. I never understood why you got to charge ANYTHING for this channel. If you don't want to continue providing it for FREE to everyone, then give it back to the government and I'm sure another corporate entity could snatch it up and find a way to make money strictly on an advertising supported network.

 

[Ghpr13]

The longer this goes on the more I get PO at Fox. As much as I like S.O.A. and Rescue Me, I'm starting to feel more and more like just saying the hell with it and quit watching them all together. If Fox feels that they can ransom these shows and their RSNs, then I not into supporting them anymore.
I know that this can be looked at as just business, and that many blame Dish for this lock out and the Disney lock out, both both Disney & Fox has a ton more money then Dish. I think they hit Dish first because it's an easier target, and if they can force the increase on Dish, then the path is set to push these increases on Direct & cable companies.
As far as the FCC getting into this, anymore for every person that feels we need some government regulation, there another person who will start yelling that the government is trying to control everything! So, as usual, there's tons of arguing and nothing gets done.
Ghpr13

 

[inazsully]

Simple question here. What exactly is Fox asking for? I hear a lot ifs and maybe's but is FOX asking for a rate increase point blank or are that asking Dish to put the RSVNs on a lower tier? It sounds like dropping the basic 120 package and replacing it with the 120+ package will make FOX happy. The 120+ package is a $5 increase over the basic 120 package. Will Dish lose a bunch of subs if their rate went up $5? Apparently this solution is too simple but I haven't heard any other viable options. Perhaps FOX can sweeten the pot and include the other channels in dispute like FX etc.

 

[mdram]

Hey for the FX, NatGeo, and RSNs, take your best shot Rupert, I don't begrudge you (although I would respectfully point out that a 50% raise demand, if true, is nuts balls crazy in the worst economic environment in 75 years)...... But FOX? You give the channel away FREE to all those with OTA antennas, and the bandwidth was f'in GIVEN to you by the US Taxpayers. I never understood why you got to charge ANYTHING for this channel. If you don't want to continue providing it for FREE to everyone, then give it back to the government and I'm sure another corporate entity could snatch it up and find a way to make money strictly on an advertising supported network.

its still free ota, and you can get it from there
what he is doing is telling dish
"hey ive got this station that gets these ratings, higher then these channels, so it should be worth as much as them, maybe more. so if you want to carry it you have to pay."
btw, doesnt dish get ad time like local affiliates? where they put thier ads on?

 

[oldave]

btw, doesnt dish get ad time like local affiliates? where they put thier ads on?

Yes. But almost, if not completely, all of that is filled with "PI" spots...

PI spots are per-inquiry, where the broadcaster gets a certain fee based on the number of calls to that toll-free number you see on the screen. All those Bow-flex commercials are like that... Dish only gets paid when people call that toll-free number.

Ad agencies aren't buying many "local" avails on Dish Network or anywhere else. On your local cable system, you'll see spots for local businesses, but the satellite companies aren't selling those available slots for a dollar a holler like some of the cable companies do.

 

[psychotrope]

I'm starting to get sick of Fox too. Every week this drags on, I realize all the more that I can live without the channels Fox is withholding. There are plenty of CFB games on other channels so that I don't need the extra 4 or 5 games that FSN shows on Saturdays. There's plenty of live NHL hockey on Versus and NHL Network every week, plus my local team isn't very good right now so I don't care to watch them much. The only thing I'm really losing is college hockey, which is shown so often on FSN-North this time of year and FSN Detroit in January through March. But ESPNU, CBS College Sports, FSN Rocky Mountain, NESN, and NHL Network pick up college hockey games too, so there's still enough to go around. I can even watch new episodes of Family Guy on Cartoon Network's Adult Swim one week later - and the quality is better on CN plus less censorship too. So thank you, Fox, for showing me that I really don't need the channels that you've taken away. Go ahead and drop Fox Business, Fox News, Fox Reality... whatever. I don't need you.

 

[tigershere]

I'll download any show that i miss on FOX via usenet with NO commercials. I watch it on tv through the xbox and it looks amazing vs sitting at a puter to watch it. So take it away from my DISH and I'll get it for free FOX and not watch one damn commercial in the process.

Worst case is I wait 2 to 4 hrs to see a show. I can't get it OTA but I can download it and everything else out there and drop ALL of this SHI#

 

[BobMurdoch]

its still free ota, and you can get it from there
what he is doing is telling dish
"hey ive got this station that gets these ratings, higher then these channels, so it should be worth as much as them, maybe more. so if you want to carry it you have to pay."
btw, doesnt dish get ad time like local affiliates? where they put thier ads on?

That doesn't help us suburban/rural types who can't get a signal otherwise.... I'm 45 miles from NYC and 60 miles from Philly as the crow flies. I remember as a kid trying to watch on rabbit ears and it was like trying to watch TV in a snowstorm.

Google TV, here I come.

 

[mdram]

That doesn't help us suburban/rural types who can't get a signal otherwise.... I'm 45 miles from NYC and 60 miles from Philly as the crow flies. I remember as a kid trying to watch on rabbit ears and it was like trying to watch TV in a snowstorm.

Google TV, here I come.

rofl, im one o those rural types
its 40-50 miles as the crow flies to the transmitter, but a good ota antenna picks it up

45miles from nyc is considered citified

 

[jimdandyvi]

Ala carte offering of sports channels is unlikely to happen unless the Government steps in and forces it.

The goal of all channels is to be in as many homes as possible. ESPN probably is in 70+ million homes. On average they probably get between $4 - $5 per month per subscriber from the operator. Maybe more since it has been several years since I have seen their rate sheet.

How many homes would ESPN be in if people had to $15 - $18 per month for a package of ESPN channels? To break even on ala carte ESPN would need 35 million subs.

Once their business model fell apart they would not be able to pay big rights fees to all the leagues and teams.

Jim

 

[BobMurdoch]

rofl, im one o those rural types
its 40-50 miles as the crow flies to the transmitter, but a good ota antenna picks it up

45miles from nyc is considered citified

Let me clarify, due to the slope of the land near me, my house is 50 feet below the highest peak in my town (with NY on the other side of it).

Also, the missus would not go for one of those huge ones mounted on the roof. I tried a smaller one inside the house up in the attic that couldn't pull ANY signal in so I returned it.

 

[lern4483]

Okay, this is a really misleading list of "dropped" channels

Hey, I have owned four Hondas, but I don't hate Toyota nor do I need to "diss" Toyota online in order to make myself feel good about my car choice. That is why I have never said anything against DirecTV, because I have never had it in my house, so I cannot comment on it (other than I have checked pricing, and my cost for D* would be about $20 per month more without new customer promotion discounts).

So, concerning the list...

Numbers 25-47 have been off for 48 hours or so (and Dish offered to extend the existing contract during negotiations, which Fox refused, so it is Fox who dd the "dropping").

Number 9-23 are ancient dead channels partially owned by Dish that were essentially demo channels for HD. Now that every TV channel is in HD, we do not need special HD channels so we can say "Ooh it is HD !". We do not see Dish carrying a special "Color TV Channel" from 1964 either.

24 is a channel owned by a group of premium channels, and Dish still carries the rest of their channels, so they have simply decided it is not worth the cost and space. I never see "Give Me Back My Smithsonian Channel" so obviously hardly anyone watched it.

5 was a fake channel created by Dish to show how easily one could create a Weather Channel. The idea that you are calling it a "dropped" channel is hilarious !

8 was even more hilarious - possibly the worst TV channel of all time. It consisted of shows filmed on $29 camcorders starring $29 ho's.

SO, prior to this weekend, there was the Disney/ESPN HD channel dispute a few months ago, Fuse and GolTV. Dish has recently been in talks with GolTV, but the lack of action indicates that they still think it is over-priced.

Fuse is owned by MSG channel, and Dish is currently in a price dispute with MSG this weekend as well.

For those who of you who like to say "Why doesn't DirecTV ever have disputes", note that you could just as easily have said "Why don't Turner and NBC/Universal ever have disputes ??" Notice that no one has ever had to drop CNN or NBC due to a pricing dispute.

PS DirecTV has dropped more channels than just Versus - for example, they dropped "Trio" and then the channel went out of business a few months later...

Looking at that list makes me feel foolish for still giving dish my money..
Especially seeing my old favorite channels, Voom!