Newbie in need of FTA help! - or - What am I doing wrong?

[mmecca]

Hi, I'm just about ready to give up on the whole FTA thing. I've been trying for about two weeks and reading the threads here and today I hired an installer who couldn't get it either. Here's the set up:

I have a 90CM Fortec Star Dish with an invacom LNB with a HH90 stab motor. I have a CaptiveWorks 600-S. I am mounted to a railing which the installer verified as plumb and helped me secure it a little better. I have an unobstructed view of the southern sky. I am unable to rotate the entire motor/dish assembly on the railing because it is a square pole - but the installer didn't think this would be a problem because the pole seems to be facing South plus declination.

I live near Buffalo NY - zip 14068

This puts my Latitude at 43.0, my longitude at 79.8

My motor is set at an elevation of 43 and my dish is set at an elevation of approximately 38-40 (38.4 is recommended by STAB).

Before bringing the installer in, I was trying to find 79W (AMC5). I could catch a signal using a beeping signal strength finder, but couldn't really get any quality on the TV meter. If I moved the dish relative to the motor mount slightly to the west, I could catch 121, 107.3 and 91 (Satellites that carry content for directv or Star Choice or Bellvue express). I presume that I was able to catch those only because the signal is so strong as they are meant for dishes smaller than mine.

The installer spent about two hours with me and verified my south with declination and moved the dish around as I sat in the house and looked for the quality meter (he had a sophisticated meter outside).

He was perplexed because he could see strength on his meter, but I couldn't read quality (except for on those previously mentioned satellites). He gave up and thought that maybe I was having an equipment problem.

BTW - the reciever has been verified as working as I plugged into my neighbor's unused 119 on his dish (with his permission!) and was able to get FTA music and such with good quality. I also belive the LNB works as I have been able to get FTA music and video from both H/V and L/R stations (off the circular and linear bands).

So, the installer, aside from his expensive compass and sat finder, didn't really know much more than I did. So, here I am asking the experts on this forum - what am I doing wrong?

Thanks in advance for your help,

Mark

 

[hubba]

what lnb do you have? Model number

 

[mmecca]

LNB model #

Invacom QPH-031

 

[voomvoom]

Are you using a disecq switch? Do you have the cable/s hooked to the C (circular) or L (linear) or both? If both, you need a disecq switch. The sats you say you're getting are circular.

Al

 

[7720driver]

Well Mark, it's hard to say what might be causing the problem.

Tell us what kind of Invacom LNB you have. (The model number.)

We need to know if it is for linear polarity only or if it also has an output for circularly polarized signals.

If it has an output for circular signals, then connect it to the correct terminal on the Stab rotor.

(The satellites that use circular polarity are stronger and easier to pick up.)

If your LNB only has a linear output, connect it to the correct terminal on the Stab motor.

At this time, do not use a DiSEqC switch. Make your setup as simple as possible.

From what you said, it sounded like you set your motor elevation correctly (to 43 on the Stab scale, which is graduated according to lattitude).

Put your motor in the center position by using the "Go to Center" command. Double check to make sure that your dish is mounted exactly straight on the motor tube (not a little to the left or right....it must be EXACTLY straight).

Enter your house's lattitude and longitude into your receiver. Once you do this, your receiver can use the USALS system to point your dish. (According to the website I checked, the longitude for zip code 14068 is 78.8 W. In your post you said it was 79.8 W.) Be sure you enter the correct number into your receiver.

Using the USALS mode, command your dish to go to your southern-most satellite (AMC5 at 79 West).

Loosen the clamps that are holding the motor to the mounting pole enough for you to be able to rotate the motor on the pole. Use a compass to point your motor as close as you can to straight south.

Set your receiver up to display the signal strength (quality) of a transponder that is known to be active on AMC5. Look on Lyngsat for transponder information.

Get a freind to help you, and use walkie talkies or cordless phones so that he can tell you the quality strength as you nudge the motor SLOWLY. When you happen to point it exactly straight south, a high quality signal should appear.

Of course, it's better to have a TV out at your dish so that you can monitor the signal and move the dish without having to rely on a friend.....but that's easier said than done.

 

[mmecca]

Thanks for the help - here's more info.

Thanks for the troubleshooting advice everyone!

The LNB is an Invacom QPH-031. It has both C (circular) and L (linear) polarity outputs. Right now I do have it running through a disecq switch. I think yesterday when the installer was here we tried with just one of the two polarities - I can't remember which polarity we tried though. I think it might have been (or at least should have been linear since we were aiming for 79W). I will try that again today. When 7720driver suggested just using one polarity minus the disecq switch, am I right in guessing that I should use linear being that I'm aiming for 79W?

When reading all of the troubleshooting advice, I did remember that the installer reset the machine which means that my usals information got erased - so post installer, we never tried the USALS mode again. I'll try putting that info back in again today and see what happens (both the latitude given to me by Stab and the latitude given to me by 7720driver).

I did have one question about the advice given by 7720driver . . .

7720driver said:

Loosen the clamps that are holding the motor to the mounting pole enough for you to be able to rotate the motor on the pole. Use a compass to point your motor as close as you can to straight south.

Set your receiver up to display the signal strength (quality) of a transponder that is known to be active on AMC5. Look on Lyngsat for transponder information.

Get a freind to help you, and use walkie talkies or cordless phones so that he can tell you the quality strength as you nudge the motor SLOWLY. When you happen to point it exactly straight south, a high quality signal should appear.

Here are my questions:

My mounting position is on a square railing, so when he was talking about loosening the clams that hold the motor to the mounting pole to point the dish and motor assembly straight south - is he/are you talking about magnetic south or south with magnetic declanation? Also, if it is not pointing straight south as it is and I can't turn it on the railing, do I need to select a new mounting position and use a pole? or mount a pole on the railing?

Also, when talking about the adjustment part with a friend, when talking about nudging the motor slowly, is he/are you talking about moving the motor and dish assembly on the mounting pole, or moving the motor manualy or having the motor move on it's own power, or moving the dish on the motor mount. (Sorry I have to ask, I truly am a newbie!)

Thanks again for everyone's help - I will try these things and let everyone know the outcome.

Mark

 

[PSB]

Yes use the Linear output ONLY when lining up a motor for more accurate results, also remove the switch for now. I always advise to remove the motor and find and store your true south satellite before ever adding it to the scenario!

Loosen the motor and rotate it on the pole until you see signal quality on a LIVE TP. or channel. Move the motor and Dish as one, the motor should NEVER be powered up until you find your true south signal!

Again remove the motor, thats the way MOST us here started, walk before you run!

VERY sorry to hear about your "PRO" installer, I hope you never paid him! No picture on the TV! NO PAY!

Remember to set your L.O. for the liner side of the LNBF to 10750 as its a Standard, if you feel you are clodse to a satellite use BLIND SCAN, let us know what you find and we will tell you what way you have to go!

 

[mmecca]

Thanks

Unfortunately I did pay the pro installer for his time - I should have asked when I hired them if I only paid for results. With respect to blind scan, unfortunately my unit doesn't support it. I think I'll have to mount a pole to my railing or put a poll in the ground because the motor right now is connected directly to my railing which doesn't allow for adjustment in azimuth of the motor and dish assembly as one. I have tried moving the dish on the motor mount (with respect to azimuth) and have not been sucessful at finding 79w. I will take out the disceq switch and motor from the scenerio and see what I can find.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[PSB]

Good luck, I sold a system to a customer recently and the installer charged $400 to install it! You guessed it he left the install with no picture on the screen!

I trouble shot with the customer over the phone, with no signals found. The customer was understandably upset. They returned the system and of course its PERFECT! (There are now going after the "PRO" installer for a FULL refund)

Its great having the best satellite meter out there but it has to be calibrated and kept up-to date with the latest data, you just can't beat experience!

Your satellite receiver (and a TV) is just as good as the best positive ID. satellite meters out there!

You can still use the motor just as a pole, have it completely vertical (straight up and down) and find and store your true south satellite!

Sorry so called "PRO" installers are my pet peeve, good idea to ask if they have EVER done a motorized install before and ALWAYS check their licence and picture I.D. before ever letting them step foot in your home.......... too many horror stories out there!

 

[mmecca]

An update - some interpretation needed . . .

Hi everyone,

I took the following trouble shooting steps:

1. Took the Disceq switch out of the picture - the L LNB is connected to a signal meter and then connected directly to the reciever - I'm using something less than RG-6 to go from LNB to meter - if this is a problem, let me know.

2. Verified my motor elevation at 43.

3. Made sure the motor was set back at exactly 0

4. Moved the dish on the motor mount looking to find quality on AMC5 79W. I rotated from 120 degrees to 260 degrees VERY SLOWLY with my friend watching to TV on transponder 11742 for quality. I did this at a dish elevation of 40.5. No quality on the way through. Caught some signal strenght on my outside meter at 160 degrees, 200 degrees, 230 degrees and 240 and 250 degrees.

5. Redid this at a dish elevation of 37.5. Caught strength on my outside signal meter at all the same places. At 160-240, the signal got stronger on my outside meter when I pushed up on the dish (increased the elevation).

6. I pushed the LNB all the way back in the collar as I noticed it was all the way forward in the collar. This seemed to increase my signal strength on my outside meter. Please advise about the placement of the LNB in its collar.

7. Redid the checks at a dish elevation of 36, same result as before.

8. Redid the checks at a dish elevation of 38. Caught a really strong signal on my outside meter at 230 degrees and also caught some popping quality on 11742 and 11792. The quality will pop up to 21% for a second from time to time and then back down again.

9. I locked that position down and that's where I'm at now. I look up at the quality meter and about once every 17 seconds or so, the quality pops back up.

So . . . what does this mean? It doesn't seem as if I'm pointed at 79 as magnetic south is 180 degrees and even with declination, I think my south is at 192 at most. But this is the first time that I've seen quality in any way, shape or form on 79W.

Any ideas what I should try next?

Should I take the meter (and the non rg-6 cable) out of the loop in case that's causing a decrease in the signal? Should I play with the elevation from here - it seems to get better when I pull down on the dish at this point (better in terms of the signal strenght on the outside metere)?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Mark

 

[PSB]

MUST be RG6, yes you can move the dish elevation to catch the signal. The motor elevation should never be touched if set correctly on a perfectly level pole/mast.

 

[7720driver]

mmecca, sorry my advice to you yesterday was somewhat unclear.

Concentrate on linear only now. Do not use a DiSEqC switch at this time. Only hook up to a linear output of your LNB at this time.

Sounds like your "installer" was ....how shall I put this.....a total dumbass. He should have known that the motor has to be on a pole and pointed exactly south.

You gotta come up with a pole (or mast) of the correct diameter for your dish's mounting bracket. If you put a pole in the ground, be sure you make it sturdy (put concrete around it). Alternatively, you could use a mast. A local satellite dealer probably has a good used one that he would sell you cheap...and you could bolt it to your square railing. Only use the railing if it is very, very sturdy (won't be bent by wind blowing on the dish or by the weight of the motor/dish).

Use a level to get your pole straight up and down in both dimensions. It's absolutely essential that your pole be straight up.

You might want to follow PSB's advice and, at first, put your dish directly on the ground pole (or mast). This is an extra step, but you have no experience, so I think you should do it. If you do it, then try to get AMC5 (which is at 79W). Since you live at 78.8W, AMC5 is practically straight south of you. Set your dish's elevation to 40.4 and use a compass to point the dish south, as best you can. Set up your receiver to look at an active AMC5 transponder frequency (according to Lyngsat). Nudge your dish slightly and slowly east or west. Once you get the dish pointed close to 79W, your receiver will show a significant quality signal. Finely point the dish in order to maximize the signal. Also maximize the signal by adjusting the elevation slightly.

I'm not familiar with receivers that don't have blindscan, but ....do whatever you gotta do to the receiver in order to find the channels on the satellite. After you get the channels, compare them to the free DVB channels listed for AMC5 on Lyngsat. If they are the right channels, then you are pointed to AMC5. If not, then your dish is probably pointed to one of the two satellites that are adjacent to AMC5.

Once you know for a fact that your dish is pointed at AMC5, put a mark on your pole itself...a mark that will be an aid in mounting your motor body straight south on the pole.

After you familiarize yourself with how your receiver works, etc., and when you are ready, take the dish off the pole, and put the motor on the pole. Point it straight south, as best you can. Don't fully tighten the bolts holding the motor body to the pole. (It's likely that you later will have to make a fine adjustment in order to get your motor body pointed exactly straight south, which is ESSENTIAL).

Change your "DISH'S" elevation to 38.4.

Use your receiver's "go to center" command to put the motor "tube" in the center positon. Mount the dish onto the motor tube as straight as you possibly can. It must not be a little to the left or right. Bolt it down tightly and permanently.

Make sure your receiver knows your house's location (lattitude 43.0 North and longitude 78.8 West). Make sure your receiver knows AMC5's position (79 West). In USALS mode, command your receiver move the dish to go to AMC5. (The motor will move slightly (perhaps imperceptibly) a extremely small amount West. Now, move the motor body on the gound pole slightly and slowly, one step at a time, west and east in order to maximize the quality signal on your receiver. When the signal is at its maximum, your motor body will be exactly straight south. It's time to bolt the motor body to the pole securely.

The main thing that can go wrong is.....for you to be picking up the wrong satellite (an adjacent one). Make sure you are on the right sat.

 

[7720driver]

Oh yeah...regarding your question about magnetic compass headings...

I was refering to TRUE south, not magnetic south.

When trying to find true south with a compass you must adjust for the amount that the magnetic reading deviates from true value. The amount of the deviation varies according to your location on Earth. For the Buffalo, NY area, true south is at 191 degrees on a magnetic compass.

When using the compass, stay away from steel objects (including the motor, mast and dish). Being too close will screw up your compass' readings.

 

[mmecca]

Thanks again!

Hi, thanks again everyone for the help. I have a mast that came with - over the next day or two, I'll give a try at securing that on the very sturdy wrought iron railing so that this thing has a pole to sit on. I'll then try as suggested to mount the dish first sans motor with the correct elevation and see what happens. If that doesn't go too well, I'll try the pole in the ground approach. I'm a little skeptical about the pole on the mast as I beat it up pretty bad when I created a tripod mount that I was trying it on before, so now it is not completely round at the top. If anyone thinks that will be a problem, please let me know.

Thanks again for everyone's help!

Mark

 

[mmecca]

I got it!

Hey Hey Hey! Thanks everyone! I am now pointed at 79W! I'm certain that it is because I'm getting stuff off of the New York Network and OTB on 12182.

I put a mast up that's verified as plumb!

I don't have the best quality in the world and have tried to make it better, but haven't gotten too far.

I have 22% on 11828
20% on 11870
32% on 11900
20% on 11940
21% on 12058
21% on 12182

I tried moving a tiny bit west and a tiny bit east, but it didn't get any better. So then I played with elevation and got a few more transponders going up, but then some of the transponders went away.

Then I guess that the next step after this is to try this again with the motor mounted.

I've marked the pole as to where the dish is mounted and facing 79W so that should help me a little bit when switching over to the motor.

To find tune from here, what's the best thing to do? Any other advice from here?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[PSB]

As above add the motor, changes the angles and re-find your true south satellite!

Well Done!

 

[7720driver]

Glad you're making progress, Mark.

I suggest you try to get good quality and a watchable picture on a few channels before putting the motor on.

Maybe you haven't adjust the the skew. (On non-motorized dishes, the skew must be adjusted.) You adjust the skew by loosening the LNB mount and rotating the LNB the proper amount. There are published tables that tell you how many degrees the skew needs to be adjusted for each satellite. (The direction and amount varies according to your house's lattitude and longitude.) But don't HAVE TO know the published values, you can just twist the LNB untill you get the strongest signal (or best picture).

After you put the motor on , you put the LNB "straight"......and whenever the dish moves, the orientation of the LNB will be shifted, keeping the skew correct.

 

[mmecca]

Thanks PSB and 7720Driver!

I've got some watchable video - I think for tonight I'll try the skew thing - I think I'll also play with moving the LNB backward and forward in its mount (I think that will do something, but I'm not sure).

Then tommorow and the next few days, the motor goes back on, the angles get adjusted and I try again to find 79W. I think finding 79W this time will be easy as I now know how small the range off of 191 is (very small range). From there with the USALS, it seems easy, but none of this has been easy to this point!

I was surprised what a small amount of movement can affect your signal on the satellite - in some cases, I think it was as little as an eighth or sixteenth of an inch.

Thanks again, I'll keep you updated,

Mark

 

[PSB]

Adjusting the focal length is defiantly worth doing. I find the LNBF usually wants to be as far away from the dish as it will go in its holder, seems to "light up" more of the dish collecting more signal.

Also worth making sure the deish reflector has not been over tightened onto the mount as any deformation in the dish shape will drop your signals. Hand tighten then half a turn of a wrench is enough.

 

[7720driver]

Mark, I guess I gave you a little bit of a bum steer when I suggested you adjust your skew. I say that because....I just now realized that the sat you are pointed at (79 W) IS your true south satellite, and thus the skew for it will be zero.

Anyway, maybe what I said has served to increase your general knowledge some.

Good luck with the motor install.

David