Newbie here, hello. My hd is not very good, why?

[dare2be]

Sorry about that. Didn't mean it that way.

There was only one other thing wrong in your post. Providers don't have to give you locals. The law says that if the station invokes "must carry", then they must be carried, but the station can't receive any retransmission fees. If the station wants retransmission fees, then they have to negotiate for those fees, which may end up in the station not being carried at all.

 

[primetimeguy]

I can't tell one bit of difference between ota straight to tv,or locals via dish.Both look great,that said there are times,or certain channels that look less than HD.

Yep, definitely subjective that is for sure. I'm on the other end and notice a difference between OTA locals and Dish locals all the time, especially on sports. For this reason all my network programming is recorded OTA, my wife's shows record off Dish locals.

 

[KAB]

Yep, locals are not "the law".

 

[david_jr]

I can't tell one bit of difference between ota straight to tv,or locals via dish.Both look great,that said there are times,or certain channels that look less than HD.

Me too neither.

 

[rfc]

Yep, locals are not "the law".

Well it seems on this forum one must choose their words very carefully for you'll be called out on it. Not a fun place to hang out.
Does this sit better for you?.....

The basic service tier requirement includes, at a minimum, the local broadcast television stations and the public, educational and governmental (PEG) access channels that the operator may be required to offer pursuant to an agreement with the local government.

[h=2]Choosing Cable Channels[/h]

[h=4]Background[/h]In general, a cable television operator has the right to select the channels and services that are available on its cable system, and has broad discretion in choosing how those channels will be packaged and marketed to its subscribers. Cable operators usually select channels that are likely to appeal to a broad spectrum of viewers.
[h=4]Tiers[/h]Cable companies generally are required to offer a basic service tier that companies typically require all subscribers to purchase before subscribing to additional video programming. The basic service tier requirement includes, at a minimum, the local broadcast television stations and the public, educational and governmental (PEG) access channels that the operator may be required to offer pursuant to an agreement with the local government. After complying with these minimum requirements, the cable operator may offer additional programming as part of the basic service tier.
With the exception of broadcast channels that elect “must carry” status and PEG channels, all other programming on the cable system is based on terms negotiated between the cable operator and the entity that owns the channel or programming service. Terms may include whether the channel or service will be offered in a package with other programming or whether the channel or service will be offered on a per-channel or pay-per-view basis, as well as the cost of carriage.
[h=4]Per-Channel (“A La Carte”) and Pay-Per-View Programming[/h]Per-channel, or “à la carte”, programming means a channel is offered on an individual per-channel basis rather than as part of a package or tier of programming. Cable television operators are not required to offer channels on an à la carte or individual basis. However, cable operators are free to offer channels other than those required to be on the basic tier on an à la carte basis. For example, premium movie services are often offered on an individual basis rather than as part of a package.
“Pay-per-view” means there is a separate charge for each program or event. For example, a separate charge may be incurred for each movie or sports event the viewer chooses.
Cable operators, as well as other entities that offer video programming services to subscribers (such as satellite television providers), continue to have broad discretion to determine if services are offered on a per-channel or pay-per-view basis, and on how programming will be packaged and marketed to consumers.
[h=4]Tier Buy-Through Prohibition[/h]A cable company cannot require a cable subscriber to purchase anything except the basic tier in order to have access to pay-per-view programming or channels offered on an à la carte basis. For example, if a cable company offers both a basic and expanded basic tier, a subscriber cannot be required to purchase the expanded basic tier in order to access pay-per-view programs. In addition, the tier buy-through provision prohibits a cable operator from discriminating between consumers who subscribe to only the basic tier and other subscribers with regard to the rates charged on a per-channel or per-event basis. The tier buy-through prohibition does not apply if the cable operator is subject to “effective competition.”
[h=4]“Multiplex” Services[/h]Some “per-channel” services, like HBO, Showtime and other premium movie services, may be offered on a “multiplex” basis, where multiple sub-channels of programming are available. The FCC has decided that multiplex services are to be treated as a per-channel service. A consumer is not required, therefore, to purchase any intervening tier or tiers of programming in order to subscribe to multiplex service.
[h=4]Complaints or Questions Concerning Cable Programming[/h]If you have a complaint or question concerning programming services or channels, contact your cable company. In many cases, the customer service representatives at your cable company will be able to help you. The telephone number for your cable company can be found on your cable bill. If you are not satisfied with the response you receive from the cable company, you may contact your local franchise authority.
[h=4]For More Information[/h]For information about other communications issues, visit the FCC’s Consumer website, or contact the FCC’s Consumer Center by calling 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322) voice or 1-888-TELL-FCC (1-888-835-5322) TTY; faxing 1-866-418-0232; or writing to:

Federal Communications Commission
Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau
Consumer Inquiries and Complaints Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554​

 

[Hall]

"With the exception of broadcast channels that elect “must carry”..."

That is the key part of what you quoted. Effectively, almost ALL stations don't go the "must carry" route anymore. They weren't happy with living off of advertising dollars alone - they want $ per customer PLUS those same advertising dollars.

 

[Kb Cool]

Well it seems on this forum one must choose their words very carefully for you'll be called out on it. Not a fun place to hang out.

Na, they just don't like someone "knocking" their beloved DishHD lite!

 

[osu1991]

Well it seems on this forum one must choose their words very carefully for you'll be called out on it. Not a fun place to hang out.
Does this sit better for you?.....

The basic service tier requirement includes, at a minimum, the local broadcast television stations and the public, educational and governmental (PEG) access channels that the operator may be required to offer pursuant to an agreement with the local government.

[h=2]Choosing Cable Channels[/h]

[h=4]Background[/h]In general, a cable television operator has the right to select the channels and services that are available on its cable system, and has broad discretion in choosing how those channels will be packaged and marketed to its subscribers. Cable operators usually select channels that are likely to appeal to a broad spectrum of viewers.
[h=4]Tiers[/h]Cable companies generally are required to offer a basic service tier that companies typically require all subscribers to purchase before subscribing to additional video programming. The basic service tier requirement includes, at a minimum, the local broadcast television stations and the public, educational and governmental (PEG) access channels that the operator may be required to offer pursuant to an agreement with the local government. After complying with these minimum requirements, the cable operator may offer additional programming as part of the basic service tier.
With the exception of broadcast channels that elect “must carry” status and PEG channels, all other programming on the cable system is based on terms negotiated between the cable operator and the entity that owns the channel or programming service. Terms may include whether the channel or service will be offered in a package with other programming or whether the channel or service will be offered on a per-channel or pay-per-view basis, as well as the cost of carriage.
[h=4]Per-Channel (“A La Carte”) and Pay-Per-View Programming[/h]Per-channel, or “à la carte”, programming means a channel is offered on an individual per-channel basis rather than as part of a package or tier of programming. Cable television operators are not required to offer channels on an à la carte or individual basis. However, cable operators are free to offer channels other than those required to be on the basic tier on an à la carte basis. For example, premium movie services are often offered on an individual basis rather than as part of a package.
“Pay-per-view” means there is a separate charge for each program or event. For example, a separate charge may be incurred for each movie or sports event the viewer chooses.
Cable operators, as well as other entities that offer video programming services to subscribers (such as satellite television providers), continue to have broad discretion to determine if services are offered on a per-channel or pay-per-view basis, and on how programming will be packaged and marketed to consumers.
[h=4]Tier Buy-Through Prohibition[/h]A cable company cannot require a cable subscriber to purchase anything except the basic tier in order to have access to pay-per-view programming or channels offered on an à la carte basis. For example, if a cable company offers both a basic and expanded basic tier, a subscriber cannot be required to purchase the expanded basic tier in order to access pay-per-view programs. In addition, the tier buy-through provision prohibits a cable operator from discriminating between consumers who subscribe to only the basic tier and other subscribers with regard to the rates charged on a per-channel or per-event basis. The tier buy-through prohibition does not apply if the cable operator is subject to “effective competition.”
[h=4]“Multiplex” Services[/h]Some “per-channel” services, like HBO, Showtime and other premium movie services, may be offered on a “multiplex” basis, where multiple sub-channels of programming are available. The FCC has decided that multiplex services are to be treated as a per-channel service. A consumer is not required, therefore, to purchase any intervening tier or tiers of programming in order to subscribe to multiplex service.
[h=4]Complaints or Questions Concerning Cable Programming[/h]If you have a complaint or question concerning programming services or channels, contact your cable company. In many cases, the customer service representatives at your cable company will be able to help you. The telephone number for your cable company can be found on your cable bill. If you are not satisfied with the response you receive from the cable company, you may contact your local franchise authority.
[h=4]For More Information[/h]For information about other communications issues, visit the FCC’s Consumer website, or contact the FCC’s Consumer Center by calling 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322) voice or 1-888-TELL-FCC (1-888-835-5322) TTY; faxing 1-866-418-0232; or writing to:

Federal Communications Commission
Consumer and Governmental Affairs Bureau
Consumer Inquiries and Complaints Division
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20554​

That's nice in theory, but most OTA broadcast networks choose "Retransmission Consent" instead of "Must Carry", so the cable/sat carriers cannot retransmit them without a pre-negotiated fee (Retransmission Consent). The rules are also different in what applies to cable doesn't always apply to satellite and vice versa. Ala Carte is a farce because the Media groups have a take it all or leave it policy, whereas for example you take all the Disney owned channels or non of them and Disney determines what tiers they want the channels broadcast on.

 

[Kb Cool]

whereas for example you take all the Disney owned channels or non of them and Disney determines what tiers they want the channels broadcast on.

If that's the case. Please explain the "Select" package on Directv. It has Disney, ABC family!But, low and behold it's missing ESPN!

 

[Rey]

I can't tell one bit of difference between ota straight to tv,or locals via dish.Both look great,that said there are times,or certain channels that look less than HD.

I can see it and prefer the ota versions of my locals. Have in mind I'm a real pain in the ass when it comes to picture quality, borderline OCD....

 

[Rey]

I've learned a lot about providers (dish, directv, comcast, etc) and why some channels have better pq than others in their line up. Providers have to give you local stations, it's the law. That being said, what providers give us for local channels are very compressed signals and the quality of their equipment to uncompress it varies. I've also learned that the best PQ is going to be OTA, for it's not compressed. I just got an indoor OTA antenna, hooked it up to my Elite Pro-70 (waiting for the Dish dongle to connect it to the Hopper) and the OTA picture is better than any channel Dish provides; and that includes Dish's premiums which are less compressed of all the dish channels.

You've heard, garbage in garbage out. The bigger the screen, the more you'll notice what imperfections it's given. Give it a high quality signal, blu-ray 24p and you'll be rewarded with outstanding pq. Give it a compressed then decompressed signal of low quality and that big screen will show you the garbage it's given. In my case, mosquito noise with local channels from Dish's compression/decompression of a questionable signal and maybe the box's ability to do so.

This may answer your question about what Mosquito noise is. I've also added a photo. Click on it to enlarge.

Definition of mosquito noise:
A distortion that appears near crisp edges of objects in MPEG and other video frames that are compressed with the discrete cosine transform (DCT). It occurs at decompression when the decoding engine has to approximate the discarded data by inverting the transform model. The mosquito noise appears as random aliasing in these areas and requires sophisticated detection circuits to eliminate it. As TVs get larger, mosquito noise and other artifacts become more noticeable.


View attachment 96049

Good thing about mosquito noise is that there are Tv's now that through processing can eliminate this issue. It may at times soften the picture a little bit though. When it comes to OTA I thought the same as you do until I saw 2 of my OTA channels that do major compression resulting in terrible macroblocking. The main ones like ABC,NBC,CBS and FOX I prefer OTA.

 

[KAB]

There seems to be know rhyme nor reason to it. In some markets, OTA is reported worse than the sat feed. Too many sub-channels would be probable cause, in theory.

 

[dare2be]

Yep, some OTA channels/markets are more bitstarved than others.

 

[osu1991]

If that's the case. Please explain the "Select" package on Directv. It has Disney, ABC family!But, low and behold it's missing ESPN!

Go troll somewhere else. Lets see what happens when Directv's new contract with Disney is finished.

 

[rfc]

Good thing about mosquito noise is that there are Tv's now that through processing can eliminate this issue. It may at times soften the picture a little bit though. When it comes to OTA I thought the same as you do until I saw 2 of my OTA channels that do major compression resulting in terrible macroblocking. The main ones like ABC,NBC,CBS and FOX I prefer OTA.

I'm on other forums where I've asked owners of some of the same equipment I have, TV (Sharp Elite), processor (Anthem D2v) if they have Directv or Dish and can comment on the local channels (Fox in particular) having mosquito noise. One of the D2v owners chimed in with this explanation:

Yes FOX broadcasts in 720p. When watching local stations, commercials might switch to 1080i or even 480p, but the main content from FOX local stations should still be 720p.

It sounds like your Dish is doing a godawful job converting 720p to 1080i. This is far too common with set top boxes.

Once the video is damaged by bad processing, you can't cure that damage. The information is already lost. The best you can do is blur it to make it less annoying. There are Noise Reduction settings in the Video Source Adjust menu of the D2v that you could apply to see how they help, but don't get your hopes up.

It is also possible (but less likely) that the video is damaged BEFORE it gets to your new Dish box -- i.e., in the process of getting the signal from the local FOX station to Dish, up to their satellite, and down to you. All of these cable and satellite services fight a constant battle to free up enough bandwidth to cram more channels into the same pipe. And that means they do various forms of "compression" to get the signal to you at a lower bit-rate. That doesn't come for free. It's one way the image gets damaged. In the case of DirecTV (who were notorious for this a few years back), this was referred to as "HD-Lite".

The only way to know for sure is to get a true 720p signal from the set top box into either the D2v or direct to your TV. (I would recommend running it through the D2v and letting the D2v do the scaling up to 1080p to go to your TV.) If that makes the problem go away, then you know the culprit is shoddy engineering in the video processor of the Dish box. If it DOESN'T make the problem go away, then try other *NATIONAL* 720p channels. This would include the national feeds from FOX, ESPN and the Disney family of channels. If Dish is damaging the video in retransmission, odds are they are less likely to do that to a national feed than to a local station rebroadcast feed. If you find the national 720p feeds look clean while the local station 720p feed still looks crappy, then the odds are Dish is discriminating against that local station rebroadcast -- compressing the crap out of it or otherwise bit-starving it.

 

[navychop]

I must say in the DC area, Dish locals are often about as good as OTA. That said, I am more and more recording both - in case weather messes up OTA, as it has recently. That said, all I watch "OTA" is Shark Tank and Doc Martin.

 

[Rey]

I'm on other forums where I've asked owners of some of the same equipment I have, TV (Sharp Elite), processor (Anthem D2v) if they have Directv or Dish and can comment on the local channels (Fox in particular) having mosquito noise. One of the D2v owners chimed in with this explanation:

Yes FOX broadcasts in 720p. When watching local stations, commercials might switch to 1080i or even 480p, but the main content from FOX local stations should still be 720p.

It sounds like your Dish is doing a godawful job converting 720p to 1080i. This is far too common with set top boxes.

Once the video is damaged by bad processing, you can't cure that damage. The information is already lost. The best you can do is blur it to make it less annoying. There are Noise Reduction settings in the Video Source Adjust menu of the D2v that you could apply to see how they help, but don't get your hopes up.

It is also possible (but less likely) that the video is damaged BEFORE it gets to your new Dish box -- i.e., in the process of getting the signal from the local FOX station to Dish, up to their satellite, and down to you. All of these cable and satellite services fight a constant battle to free up enough bandwidth to cram more channels into the same pipe. And that means they do various forms of "compression" to get the signal to you at a lower bit-rate. That doesn't come for free. It's one way the image gets damaged. In the case of DirecTV (who were notorious for this a few years back), this was referred to as "HD-Lite".

The only way to know for sure is to get a true 720p signal from the set top box into either the D2v or direct to your TV. (I would recommend running it through the D2v and letting the D2v do the scaling up to 1080p to go to your TV.) If that makes the problem go away, then you know the culprit is shoddy engineering in the video processor of the Dish box. If it DOESN'T make the problem go away, then try other *NATIONAL* 720p channels. This would include the national feeds from FOX, ESPN and the Disney family of channels. If Dish is damaging the video in retransmission, odds are they are less likely to do that to a national feed than to a local station rebroadcast feed. If you find the national 720p feeds look clean while the local station 720p feed still looks crappy, then the odds are Dish is discriminating against that local station rebroadcast -- compressing the crap out of it or otherwise bit-starving it.

Good post rfc. Yes That's exactly what it does which is why it looks softer but for me it's enough of an "improvement". Honestly for some SAT channels I like what it hides but definitely not a magic cure as what is lost is lost.....

 

[Kb Cool]

Go troll somewhere else. Lets see what happens when Directv's new contract with Disney is finished.

I was hoping for an explanation from you or anyone for that matter! I know we were all told you can't have ESPN without Disney. But, something must have changed or the entire truth was never told. No offense intended!

 

[primetimeguy]

I'm on other forums where I've asked owners of some of the same equipment I have, TV (Sharp Elite), processor (Anthem D2v) if they have Directv or Dish and can comment on the local channels (Fox in particular) having mosquito noise. One of the D2v owners chimed in with this explanation:

Yes FOX broadcasts in 720p. When watching local stations, commercials might switch to 1080i or even 480p, but the main content from FOX local stations should still be 720p.

It sounds like your Dish is doing a godawful job converting 720p to 1080i. This is far too common with set top boxes.

Once the video is damaged by bad processing, you can't cure that damage. The information is already lost. The best you can do is blur it to make it less annoying. There are Noise Reduction settings in the Video Source Adjust menu of the D2v that you could apply to see how they help, but don't get your hopes up.

It is also possible (but less likely) that the video is damaged BEFORE it gets to your new Dish box -- i.e., in the process of getting the signal from the local FOX station to Dish, up to their satellite, and down to you. All of these cable and satellite services fight a constant battle to free up enough bandwidth to cram more channels into the same pipe. And that means they do various forms of "compression" to get the signal to you at a lower bit-rate. That doesn't come for free. It's one way the image gets damaged. In the case of DirecTV (who were notorious for this a few years back), this was referred to as "HD-Lite".

The only way to know for sure is to get a true 720p signal from the set top box into either the D2v or direct to your TV. (I would recommend running it through the D2v and letting the D2v do the scaling up to 1080p to go to your TV.) If that makes the problem go away, then you know the culprit is shoddy engineering in the video processor of the Dish box. If it DOESN'T make the problem go away, then try other *NATIONAL* 720p channels. This would include the national feeds from FOX, ESPN and the Disney family of channels. If Dish is damaging the video in retransmission, odds are they are less likely to do that to a national feed than to a local station rebroadcast feed. If you find the national 720p feeds look clean while the local station 720p feed still looks crappy, then the odds are Dish is discriminating against that local station rebroadcast -- compressing the crap out of it or otherwise bit-starving it.

One point to keep in mind no Dish, or Dish box is switching resolutions while viewing the same channel. FOX sends 720p period...shows, sports, commercials, etc. Now maybe the content they get is different formats as you mention, but it all comes to us in 720p. And because of FOX's splicer system, all stations should be the same regardless of local. Unlike other locals which vary market to market and can control subchannels and bandwidth for each.

Added macroblocking, mosquito noise and softness of the picture are things I see comparing Dish locals to OTA.

 

[rfc]

I just received the OTA dongle from dish and hooked it up to the hopper.
I can now do a direct comparison, OTA vs Satellite, same channel, thru the hopper. (FOX hd 720 is the test, and OTA looks much better than satellite.)
The OTA signal shows a clearer, sharper picture and mosquito noise is almost non existent...on my local channels. Your milage may vary.
With OTA, you get another tunner, more channels and the hopper can record them in a new section as OTA. Plus no monthly fee for OTA, niiiiiice!

Thank you all who chimed in. I've learned a few things about compression, equipment, how things work and that thanks to forums like this, we can figure out together how to get the best picture quality out of our systems.

Cheers,
rfc