New Satellite TV and Radio Stations

[AcWxRadar]

First ever post. I'll donate 500.00 dollars when you get started. My health isn't to good, so you best get started. Dreams can be reached if you are willing to work at it and have a little luck. Money Helps!

1206,

Major thanks for the support! I hope your health isn't as critical as you state. If you are serious (regarding your health) our prayers and thoughts are with you!

As for your committment to a $500 donatin, that is really and truly awesome, but it will be a long ways out in the future before we will be doing anything that serious, I am sure.

That doesn't mean that I am going to relenquish this endeavor in any way, it is just that I have realized from the very start that this was a fantastic notion and if it were to ever succeed, it would be a major undertaking and require a great deal of time and research and MONEY!

The money and the legal aspects are obviously the greatest hurdles.

Regardless of the nightmares regarding the legal, political, financial and technical hurdles involved I believe in this enterprise.

I don't have the money to build a Spruce Goose, but I might just have the daring attitude and dedication to do it anyway. You realize that other people have done it. Many failed, but some succeeded. Do we just automatically concede that we should fail because we don't have that kind of money of our own, in hand? At our disposal?

Nawh! IF all of you (and of course it would require all of you and I to do so) were really committed to such an endeavor, I believe that we could accomplish it.

I am not being simply a dreamer here nor overly optimistic. I am simply stating an honest fact that it has been done before and if another person was able to do it, then why not us? We are a group of some of the best technical people in this area. We don't get where we are by being financially inept, so we have some good ideas and financial sense to go along with such an adventure. We are bold people who don't cringe at challenges and we are sporting people who also have good communication skills to involve others (such as financial backers).

It seems to me that if we truly want this, we should be able to get it, within some reasonable time frame.

Do you honestly think that we are just a handful of misfits that miss our past TV goodies and our wishes are just pipe dreams, or do you think that we have some stature and collective knowledge that could be pooled and truly make something like this become a reality?

I am for the latter! I think we can do it!

We cannot simply wish for something to happen, however. Obviously we need to all work together to make it happen, but if you want to make it happen just as much as I, and your neighboor also wants it and your friend wants it and your brother and your cousin and.... etc. etc. etc. Then maybe, we just have a chance to git'r done!

Let's give it a shot at least. If we don't put anything more than time and research into it at first, just gathering information and ideas and advice, we are not out anything. If we come up with some great assistance and support, we might go a bit further. Let's just see if we take this step by step and slowly if we can make some progress. The only thing we will be out by investigating this idea is some time and we will gain knowledge for the future! And there is nothing more valuable than knowledge.

Let's at least keep this thread / conversation going and see what happens.

Gordy

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[Cadsulfide]

Gordy;

I would think more in terms of time and psychic energy than in $$$. If you really want this thing to fly, I am sure you will find a way. The huge question is: are you willing to put in the 60-80hrs a week it will take for the first couple of years until you have acquired trustworthy people you can delegate tasks to?

If you have the energy and the desire, all the other stuff just becomes hurdles to jump over. You will make the necessary compromises and adjustments to see it lift off. It will not be something to be run on autopilot. It will need a strong hand, and a steady character to get it through it's infancy.

I wouldn't worry too much about the big boys at first, by the time it's grown to arouse their interest, you'll know what to do....

 

[SatelliteAV]

Be careful...... sounds like the facilities are directing the dream rather than the necessities of the project.

What steps will it take to change a dream to reality?

I question if fiber is available as this facility is a microwave relay center. To obtain content or facilitate additional channels (to offset your bandwidth cost and fatten the MUX for better coverage) the facility will need inbound capacity. Does the facility have a fiber run? An uplink facility should be located on or very near a major backbone to minimize acquisition cost and transport.

A RF study and frequency coordination needs to be performed on the site and if suitable, submitted for FCC licensing. The facility looks like it has some great ammenities, but you need to make sure that the site will be suitable to the requirements of the repurposing.

It is nice to dream about owning an estate with the collection of Ferraris parked in a detached showroom / garage, but would you really want the property if it was accessible only via a potholed dirt path leading to it from the Autobahn?

I would suggest starting a flowchart of organization. What are the personnel needs? What are the physical needs? Over time, members can donate expertise, vacation time and dig through our equipment bins and eBay postings to acquire equipment. Yes, it can be done, but there needs to be the steadfast leader with a plan and checklist.

 

[LoTech]

Perhaps you should start small. Maybe one or two channels as a test model, and then build from there. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

 

[Sadoun]

Gordy,

Nice idea and good feedback from members.

Every business or venture has risks. But consider this, if a turtle does not stick her head out, take a risk, and walk, it will die in its shell (perceived security).

I would recommend the venture to be:

Not-for-profit. That way, donations can be tax deductible to donors. Some who believe in this venture, may donate some real assets.

Programming should be original, thought provoking, educational, and entertaining.

Costs, expenses, and revenues must be estimated well in advance before starting anything.

You should setup a date where all interested parties, promotors, donors, potential technical staff, etc., can meet face-to-face and plan the venture.

 

[oldford]

I've stayed out of this until now. It is a terrific idea and I believe it could be done. I'm too old, broke and far away to be much help, so I'll just add unsolicited advice. (I've started and been reasonably successful (no bankruptcy or bailouts) in a couple of businesses).

The very first step should be to construct a business plan. There are several books on the subject and probably some software. The plan will, by its' nature, keep your ideas organized and give you a direction and purpose. Also it serves to keep focus, you don't want to be all over the map when you should be heading in one direction. The plan would also be required if you should ever feel the need to go after venture capital or loans of a formal sort. Of course it is your plan, so you can change it at any time. The fact that it is written helps to buffer and focus wildeyed enthusiasm.

I really hope to see you make a go of it, I hope my comments are helpful.

Best Regards, Eric

 

[AcWxRadar]

Be careful...... sounds like the facilities are directing the dream rather than the necessities of the project.

What steps will it take to change a dream to reality?

I question if fiber is available as this facility is a microwave relay center. To obtain content or facilitate additional channels (to offset your bandwidth cost and fatten the MUX for better coverage, the facility will need inbound capacity. Does the facility have a fiber run? An uplink facility should be located on or very near a major backbone to minimize acquisition cost and transport.

A RF study and frequency coordination needs to be performed on the site and if suitable, submitted for FCC licensing. The facility looks like it has some great ammenities, but you need to make sure that the site will be suitable to the requirements of the repurposing.

It is nice to dream about owning an estate with the collection of Ferraris parked in a detached showroom / garage, but would you really want the property if it was accessible only via a potholed dirt path leading to it from the Autobahn?

I would suggest starting a flowchart of organization. What are the personnel needs? What are the physical needs? Over time, members can donate expertise, vacation time and dig through our equipment bins and eBay postings to acquire equipment. Yes, it can be done, but there needs to be the steadfast leader with a plan and checklist.

Brian,

Thanks for bringing up these notions.

I don't have much time left to discuss this further, but before I go...

There are no fiber optic connections at this facility. Even the microwave connections would be unusable as the owner had most of the cables and waveguides removed (anything that was salvageable and copper) to prevent the meth-heads from stealing it all. It was all salvaged and sold to the highest bidder or something.

The only things of value are about just what you can see in the pictures. SOrry that some are a bit blurry.

Basically, it is the space and facility that I was promoting. Well, and the location as it being close to me. Which doesn't have to be important. It was just seeming to be a convenient location, inexpensive and readily available. I think you understand.

None of the equipment that is at the site could be utilized except for the tower itself, tjhe building and its amennities and the land. Oh, and of course the generator. That is a plus.

I guess what I am trying to relay is that, it is simply a nice site that has potential at a low pricetag. In other words, real estate.

There is no doubt about it, this is going to require a great deal of effort and thought. I obviously know that I cannot do it myself, so I must recruit others if this is ever to even have a chance. I would be doing this as a hobby venture, and I would expect the same from all others involved. If it materializes and actually makes money, then at least some of us would get paid, but I think of it more as a labor of love and a hobby, not as a money making scheme.

In this regard, how many people are there out there who would be willing to invest a fw dollars here and there and mostly just for the sheer fun of it and without any promises to make money on such an enterprise?

If we want it to make a profit, then we can do so, but then it defeats the notion of FTA sat TV or RADIO. I want it to be free, if that can be managed and sustain the operation. If we can make it into a club membership, but keep the chanels free so that no one has to be a member in order to view the channels, but still continue to support the station, that would be a good dream.

I bet we could count on quite a few people, but I don't know if it would be enough. Lot's of things to investigate here.

Like I stated, I am very motivated towards this, but it is not going to be a simple project, obviously.

We don't need to get in any hurry about this. Let's just let it play out and see how much support is here. That would be the best policy to start with.

Well, I goota get some sleep here soon, but let's continue to discuss this.

Gordy (AKA RADAR)

 

[AcWxRadar]

Perhaps you should start small. Maybe one or two channels as a test model, and then build from there. Remember, Rome wasn't built in a day.

LoTech,

I understand you! A very good point to keep in mnd.

Sometimes it is easy to let an awesome dream get away from reality! Better keep it down to earth.

Gordy

 

[AcWxRadar]

Gordy,

Nice idea and good feedback from members.

Every business or venture has risks. But consider this, if a turtle does not stick her head out, take a risk, and walk, it will die in its shell (perceived security).

I would recommend the venture to be:

Not-for-profit. That way, donations can be tax deductible to donors. Some who believe in this venture, may donate some real assets.

Programming should be original, thought provoking, educational, and entertaining.

Costs, expenses, and revenues must be estimated well in advance before starting anything.

You should setup a date where all interested parties, promotors, donors, potential technical staff, etc., can meet face-to-face and plan the venture.

Jamal,

Thank you for your supporting comments and advice. I certainly appreciate that you and Brian jumped in on this discussion.

You both operate your own businesses in the relatd field, so your opinions and advise are very noteworthy and substantially valuable.

Thanks so much for your positive support! As I mentioned early on, it would be great if we had no commercials except from the sponsors of this site.

I am not sure if this propsed station could survive without commercials, but I would rather have you advertise for free to help support the advancement of the station / network as opposed to airing commercials from agencies or entities that I don't believe in.

I guess I would be the founder of this station or entrprise, but I would have to turn control over to someone eventually who would be more knowledgable, but I certainly would demand specific handling an oversight.

Ok, I better get to bed soon, but I need to call you or email you and discuss this sometime.

Did you like some of my show lineup selections?

Gordy

 

[guapoharry]

After re-reading some of the OP's comments, it kind of sounds like PBS. The commercials are kind of mellow, people are on their honor to pay and otherwise it's free for the taking.

Is this correct?

 

[Jim S.]

Well... all we need is for them (DN) to continue to sue receiver manufacturers into non-existence (alleging conspiracy to facilitate signal theft or some such thing...). But perhaps a package using a DVB PC card would be cool add-on for the HTPC owners too.

It's pretty obvious that some manufacturers are conspiring to facilitate signal theft. But, if you're worried about the perception that all FTA equipment has no legitimate use, I can't think of a better antidote than more free channels!

 

[LoTech]

I've been pondering the types of channels that you could provide, and it just hit me. I would like to see a channel that has classic TV programming during the day, and movies during prime time. Kind of like an RTN/This TV hybrid.

 

[AcWxRadar]

I've been pondering the types of channels that you could provide, and it just hit me. I would like to see a channel that has classic TV programming during the day, and movies during prime time. Kind of like an RTN/This TV hybrid.

LoTech,

Actually, I was kinda hinting towards that with my list of channel content previously. However, I just thought of something that would be better than just evening movies.

Since I know so many people, including myself, who work oddball shifts as opposed to the standard 7-3 or 8-4 or 9-5. It would benefit all viewers if the movie was repeated 3 to four times per day i.e. 8pm, 4am and noon or 8pm, midnight, 6am and noon.

Now for myself, not only do I woek oddball hours, but I also work nonstandard days - i.e. on two, off two, on three, off two, on two, off three. So I would try to schedule a set of movies to be broadcast throughout a two week period and rotate them through on different days. Then it would be assured that a person would have a chance to be off when any of those movies were playing.

With a specialized movie schedule like this, it would reduce the cost of content services but also limit the repeat programming so that it doesn't appear that you are playing the same thing over and over again.

Some good scheduling would make this really nice.

Gordy

 

[ikki]

The first thing we should be doing is making some phone calls to find out what transponder bandwidth and time cost.

From my understand even on 97 West, audio only channels run a little less then 25 dollars an hour. So if you figure you can put about 24 uncompressed audio channels in about 1 Mhz of spectrum u should be able to come close to an idea.

 

[AcWxRadar]

The first thing we should be doing is making some phone calls to find out what transponder bandwidth and time cost.

From my understand even on 97 West, audio only channels run a little less then 25 dollars an hour. So if you figure you can put about 24 uncompressed audio channels in about 1 Mhz of spectrum u should be able to come close to an idea.

Ikki,

I did some short research towards this. I found some information from 1990 (so this is outdated information) that Intelsat, which I believe would be the company that owns the Galaxy 25 sat at 97.0W, would lease an entire TP for $2.8M annually.

Obviously, we don't want to lease an entire TP, so we would lease space by MHz/hour or however they qualify it.

I think that your price figure is far too low. I am certain that it is much more than that. But, I truly don't know for certain. If you have some documentation regarding prices, please post them here. They don't have to be entirely accurate, just ballpark figures, but at least something to provide us with a better and more accurate and up to date sense of financial requirements.

As you stated, phone calls and research must be made to know for certain.

If this notion does not go in the direction that I originally was "dreaming" of, at least we may gather a great deal of great information so that we will better comprehend the nature of FTA, from a monetary and publicity viewpoint.

Gordy

 

[ikki]

> I think that your price figure is far too low. I am certain that it is much more than that.

$25 * 24 * 6 = $3,600 an hour. I don't find that unreasonable. (Based upon my figures) A T3 (45 meg uplink for disaster situations was quoted at 500 an hour in 2007.)

One other thing, do you really thing Dr. Scott is paying 2.8 million a year?

I don't think so

 

[AcWxRadar]

$25 * 24 * 6 = $3,600 an hour. I don't find that unreasonable. (Based upon my figures) A T3 (45 meg uplink for disaster situations was quoted at 500 an hour in 2007.)

$3,600/hr doesn't sound unreasonable to my way of thinking either, for 24 audio channels. But, $25 * 24 * 6.... What is the '6'?

One other thing, do you really thing Dr. Scott is paying 2.8 million a year?

I don't think so

No, I am sure that he is not. But, he is not leasing an entire TP all to himself either. The $2.8M was a reported quote from 1990 for the lease of an entire TP for an entire year. That would work out to ~$320/hour/TP. Obviously that price is nearly 20 years old and isn't accurate now.

It would be great to have an accurate quote/estimate in today's $. Where did you find the $500 quote from 2007?

Gordy

 

[SatelliteAV]

To obtain pricing (a link budget) you need to first determine the needs of the planned service. You will not require a full 36MHz transponder for a typical DTH channel. Start with determining how many services are to be launched, the desired dish size and PQ. Contact either the sales department of the satellite of interest, a broker, or an uplinker with contracted space on the bird. A salesperson will walk you through the link budget process. Don't be surprised if you only receive generalized higher cost numbers. Just like a car dealership..... many tire kickers and few buyers. To get a real price, go in with your exact needs and a date that you will sign a contract. Be ready to negotiate!

Will the service require a SCPC or MCPC (mux)?
SCPC is a single channel on a transponder. MCPC is multiple services on a single transponder. SCPC signals are more difficult to receive as they are the needle in the haystack. SCPC signals are usually less robust and require larger link budgets to obtain reliable signals. Less SCPC channels can be assigned within a given frequency range, so it is more difficult and expensive to launch a SCPC channel on a popular satellite. MCPC signals are more robust and are easier for a receiver to maintain a reliable lock. The group of services are grouped together into a MUX and the sum of the services equals a very wide bandwidth and shares the cost of the uplink. MCPC signals are the preferred service for popular satellites as they optimize the bandwidth usage by using larger portions without required band guards, duplicated tables, etc.

Should you uplink or join an existing MUX? If you join an existing MUX you eliminate engineering studies, reduce the facilities requirements, cut start-up cost, increase the possibility of placement on a popular satellite at a reasonable rate, but you need to budget the cost of transporting the service to an uplinker.

What is the required bandwidth?
The cost (Link Budget) for the bandwidth based on Satellite (transponder availability, popularity), footprint (coverage), EIRP (strength of signal), priority of service (what happens if the transponder fails or is degraded), contract length. The cost of transponder space widely varies and you probably will not find any published estimates as there are so many variables.

The current long term rate for an uplinker to turn (uplink your service without providing a playout service) on a popular satellite of a 128K audio channel is currently approx. $1200 - $1500 per month and a 3Meg video channel is approximately $15000 - $18000 per month. Rates are considerably lower if on a less popular satellite or with extended years contract. The bandwidth cost would be much less if you contract directly with the satellite owner, but then you will need to factor in the ownership and maintenance of the uplink facility, equipment and RF engineer(s) salary.

 

[AcWxRadar]

To obtain pricing (a link budget) you need to first determine the needs of the planned service. You will not require a full 36MHz transponder for a typical DTH channel. Start with determining how many services are to be launched, the desired dish size and PQ. Contact either the sales department of the satellite of interest, a broker, or an uplinker with contracted space on the bird. A salesperson will walk you through the link budget process. Don't be surprised if you only receive generalized higher cost numbers. Just like a car dealership..... many tire kickers and few buyers. To get a real price, go in with your exact needs and a date that you will sign a contract. Be ready to negotiate!

Brian,

Many thanks! You have included a great deal of information and guidance here and I will take the information into great consideration.

If I use the prices you provided and estimate liberally, one video and one audio channel would run about $235K annually - $27 an hour just for the uplink access. This is quite close to what Ikki had reported. This really doesn't sound all that expensive.

I have sent a request to Intelsat regarding this information and their Link Budget Process. They do have some sort of a PC based calculator program that I could use to determine my needs, but I would have to purchase that program and don't wish to start spending money just yet (the program was pricey). I have only requested generalized information from them at this time and am awaiting their reply.

Getting the video and uplink equipment and maintaining it, FCC licenses and purchasing the rights to rebroadcast the content are, I am sure, going to add up quickly.

This will be a long term project, so I will be gathering data for quite a while. I welcome all information and links to any resources.

Gordy

 

[LoTech]

You can contact Intelsat (Galaxy) to inquire about pricing at this link.

Telesat (Anik, Nimiq) can be contacted by the telephone number at this link.

SES World Skies (AMC) can be contacted by the number at this link.