New mount/strut kits are a hazzard

[ZandarKoad]

I'm shocked that I can't find a huge thread addressing this topic. Maybe it's just in my area or something... (We get our equipment from Wood Dale, IL)

I'm an independent sub, and last Saturday we recieved a new shipment of Superdish mounting assemblies complete with telescoping strut kits. I didn't have the misfortune of opening it up and trying to use it until today. And I must say, that is by far the worst SD installation I've ever done. Whoever designed that assembly is an IDIOT. Whoever decided to SHIP those assemblies to technicians is an even BIGGER IDIOT.

The old SD mount had a large foot plate that had six locations for lag bolts. With the struts attached, there were a total of EIGHT lag bolts fastening the SD to any given surface. You could grab on and HANG from the mount if you wanted. I would even use it as a footing when peaking in the SD on steep roofs. NOW, with the new mount/struts, there is a maximum of FOUR locations for lag bots: TWO on the "foot plate" (I can't even CALL it a foot plate... it's too small really...") and one for each strut. That's right. FOUR freaking lag bolts are supposed to now hold a SD onto a roof. THAT IS INSANITY.

Once, about 6 months ago, I found myself short on lag bolts and time. I only had enough for three bolts in the foot plate, and one for each strut arm. The mount was secure enough, and I got a good signal, but I was just too darn paranoid about the thing comming off in a good strong wind. I went back on my own time and threw in 3 more lag bolts. NOW DISH HAS LOWERED THEIR INSTALLATION STANDARDS TO BELOW MY WORST PERSONAL STANDARD.

No lie: THE DISH IS LOOSE. You can grab it and SHAKE IT AROUND on the mount a few centimeters in any direction. The best peak I can get on these P.O.S. mounts is about 90 on 119 and 110. And it's not just me either. All the guys I work with are saying the same thing.

Also: With the old mounting system, you could actually forgo the strut kit in a tight installation location. Simply tighten everything up real good, use all 6 lag bolts, and you'd be set. No more. Now it's IMPOSSIBLE to install a SD without using the telescopic struts. Does Dish network WANT to loose customers? Many people are VERY particular about how and where the dish is installed.

It's so bad, that I can ALMOST convince myself that I'll only have to deal with it for a few days. Dish willl be FORCED to go back to the old system.

 

[Mike500]

This is the design that DirecWay has been using for a while. The large foot model was the original DirecPC or DirecDuo mount.

Proper installation of the new type will depend on the skill of the installer. That's why many many dealers will not allow installers to install on roofs.

In the case of the new type, every one of the lag screws WILL require each to be driven into the reaters or the studs in case`of a wall mount. The end pads of each strut must also be driven into solid wood. This is the reason for the telescoping feature.

Having been one, who has installed over 600 dishes of all type, I know how to find the rafters. Still, sometimes I miss. That's why I will not install a large dish on a roof, unless I can access the attic underneath. That way, if I miss, I can place 2x4 or 2x6 blocks under the deck and tie them into the rafters.

 

[ZandarKoad]

I've done a few mounts (for ABS-CBN International) similar to the one Dish just came out with, but they had THREE locations for lag bolts in the foot plate as opposed to TWO. Also the dishes for ABS-CBN were about HALF the weight of a SD, with shorter LNB arms and lighter LNBs: far less torque on the mount than the SD.

So I stand by my complaints. Heh.

 

[SummitAdvantageRetailer]

Yikes, I'll have to talk to our installers about this. All I heard about the new design is that the struts are now telescoping. I didn't know that the "foot"s were smaller and can only take 2 lags.

 

[bweiteka]

I felt the same way when I first saw the new setup. The mast foot is tiny! However, one good thing is that all those dingalings that were mounting superdishes without support arms in the past won't have a choice anymore.
Also, after using them a few times, I love the new arms. They are a pain to put together, but properly positioned they are even more solid than the originals. I know it's hard to find the rafter sometimes through two layers of shingles, but even if you miss one the extra length of the struts provide excellent lateral support. The other VERY nice thing is that when you lag the mast into a rafter, these struts will actually stretch far enough to hit other rafters that are 24" OC. Sure they are a little more difficult to install, but if you have any regard for the longevity of the systems you install I think you'll get to like them.

 

[ZandarKoad]

How is four or less bolts into rafters going to last longer than six or more bolts into rafters?

 

[bweiteka]

Ok, I just read the last bit of Zanderkoad's post again. I can't even begin to count the number of installations i have fixed where the original 6 hole mast was used with no support arms. No matter how tight those bolts are tightened! I realize when the SD first came out they weren't always shipped with support arms. So I spent all last summer fixing other peoples crap. I'm STILL running across RECENT installations that have no support arms. When I confront other installers about it they say "It should last for 180 days, after that I'm in the clear." WHAT?? Those installations DO NOT LAST!! the new 2 hole mast makes it so that kind of installation won't last 2 days. I have installed 20 - 30 SD's with the new struts (when pole mounts were not an option) and am very happy with the new setup. It's all about how you place the struts. stretch them out in a nice Y pattern and they are solid as hell.

Ok, sorry about the rant, it's just a sore point. I've had to fire numerous installers for being to lazy to use struts and use them properly.

 

[ZandarKoad]

Honestly, I haven't run into to many installations I've had to service that were lacking the strut arms. A few, yes. Should you use the strut arms on the old dish mount types? Yes, of course, always. But have you ever run into a situation where there simply was NO OPTION of using the strut arms? I have. That was my only point.

In some cases, there are mounting surfaces that ONLY accept D500 footprints. In those cases, there are actually certain SD masts that use the same lag bolt footprint as D500. Such as a non-penetrating mount, often used on flat roofs. The new strut kits are COMPLETELY IN-COMPATIBLE with those types of custom mounts. It's just that much less versatile.

 

[bweiteka]

Yeah I've done service calls on countless SD's without support arms, made me mad as hell. My point was that a dish installed like that on the new mast would fall over as soon as you get back to your ladder, so you must use the arms. Now just use them right! But you are right, the new mounts won't work with non-pens, and they are harder to hit a rafter with. I think if you can get the SD kits that come one per box they still have the old masts.

 

[ZandarKoad]

Yeah, they would, but I haven't seen the single dish-per-box type in a long time. Now it's all "mini-bulk". Do you know if there is an outfit that sells the old main mast/footplate setup? Preferebly at wholesale prices... That would be the best of both worlds: the telescoping arms (which are a pain at first, but they DO in fact provide a wider, more stable triangle) and the ease and security and versatility of the traditional main footplate.

Also, please note: Use the struts CORRECTLY people! Try to make a perfect equilateral triangle between the footplate, and the two strut fasten points. And make this triangle as -large- as possible. SO OFTEN I see the strut arms coming RIGHT BACK DOWN to within INCHES of the main footplate. And the two strut fasten points and the main footplate are all in a straight line............. BLARG!!!
[/rant]

 

[Mike500]

The strongest shape would be a tetrahedral, but the struts should really be secured to the rafters.

 

[ZandarKoad]

The strongest shape would be a tetrahedral, but the struts should really be secured to the rafters.

Tetrahedral

You're right. I over looked the third dimension. But I don't think an installer who can't even mount a dish properly would ever be able to comprehend the concept of a tetrahedral. If they can understand TRIANGLES, I'll be happy.

 

[mudder1310]

So how is it any harder to hit a rafter now? If you could do it before it should be the same regardless how the foot is configured. One down side is not being able to get as many lags into rafters/headers, but still, it is what you do for a living, how hard can it be?

 

[ZandarKoad]

I've just been informed that they are discontinuing the new SD masts. :

 

[Dish Dude]

yes we did a test up here, in the windiest city in the nation, and the arms are great, yet they should have went with a thicker guage, they still flex to much. Did a comparison of the 2 mounts, old large foot plate with the telescoping struts and new mini foot. We had attic access to our shop and verified everything was in the rafters. Even with an extra set of struts on the new kind it still moved a little, not enough to lose signal but enough to bring down the 121 from 81 to 68 after a storm with 60 mph winds. Identical mounts except for the footplate, the large foot plate didn't move, the small one did. Give us the big footplates with the telescoping struts and we will all be happy