New customer disappointed with PQ
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they are saying how good there hd is! but yet they wont move there hd off the 129 until they absolutely have to. regardless of all the complaining from customers and installers. and why doesn't dish have like fta a signal strength meter and a picture quality meter? because they don't want you to see the truth!
The install could affect the PQ, however it would have to be pretty bad to do so. But if in the "install" you include that the installer might connect the receiver to your TV using the RF/coax connection, then it would definitely be true.
The greatest affect that you can control is using the best connection between your receiver and the TV, and in adjusting your TV properly.
Perhaps the single greatest factor is your TV, if you are using a HDTV. Some HDTVs are not very good on SD.
However if you are using a SD TV (which 80% of my experience is with) and you have properly adjusted your TV and you are using a decent s-video cable with a good signal from your satellite, then that's the best you can do.
And in my experience with multiple 32"-36" SD TVs, all properly adjusted, and all with very good Dish connections, the SD PQ is average at best. On most 42"+ HDTVS, the PQ is mediocre. Dish compresses SD to look decent on 20"-27" TVs, and the shortcomings of that are usually very painfully obvious on a larger HDTV.
About 3 years ago, when E* was shuffling some channels between transponders, there was about a month where the Encore channels were on lightly used transponders and therefore got a lot of bandwidth. The PQ was excellent. Faces had excellent detail, backgrounds didn't blur on movement, you could see the fibers on fabric. I recorded a couple of 5 minute segments of movies that were particularly good and kept them around for a couple of years for comparisons.
The only SD channels today that I consider to be of good quality are the PPV movies. And not all of them. There is definitely better detail, clearer motion, and less contouring on those channels.
The greatest affect that you can control is using the best connection between your receiver and the TV, and in adjusting your TV properly.
Perhaps the single greatest factor is your TV, if you are using a HDTV. Some HDTVs are not very good on SD.
However if you are using a SD TV (which 80% of my experience is with) and you have properly adjusted your TV and you are using a decent s-video cable with a good signal from your satellite, then that's the best you can do.
And in my experience with multiple 32"-36" SD TVs, all properly adjusted, and all with very good Dish connections, the SD PQ is average at best. On most 42"+ HDTVS, the PQ is mediocre. Dish compresses SD to look decent on 20"-27" TVs, and the shortcomings of that are usually very painfully obvious on a larger HDTV.
About 3 years ago, when E* was shuffling some channels between transponders, there was about a month where the Encore channels were on lightly used transponders and therefore got a lot of bandwidth. The PQ was excellent. Faces had excellent detail, backgrounds didn't blur on movement, you could see the fibers on fabric. I recorded a couple of 5 minute segments of movies that were particularly good and kept them around for a couple of years for comparisons.
The only SD channels today that I consider to be of good quality are the PPV movies. And not all of them. There is definitely better detail, clearer motion, and less contouring on those channels.
I have had DISH for years and most of the SD channels are great- locals etc.
There are many things that contribute to poor sd picture qualit. The first being an incorrectly set up display.
Have you used a set up disk like DVE or Avia? Have you considered an ISF tech?
I borrowed this from another site.
There are many things that contribute to poor sd picture qualit. The first being an incorrectly set up display.
Have you used a set up disk like DVE or Avia? Have you considered an ISF tech?
I borrowed this from another site.
Well lets not forget here that I am comparing inputs. The TV has not changed between E* and BrightHouse Network receivers. Last night I was comparing the Tennis channel which is a digital channel in BrightHouse and it looked definitely better than in E*. If they would look the same I would be happy but frankly that is not the case. I believe that based on what I have read so far there are two possible problems here. I believe that the first one is the compression the E* transmits the channels and the second one (maybe) is the video processor in the ViP211 (it is a crappy one and is not doing a good job processing the image that it receives). I just cannot be live what some people are suggesting here. To have an S-Video cable for SD's and an HDMI for HD's, wow. That would be suicidal. I would have to get ready to go home by taking 4 aspirin tablets to hear my wife B***H all night at me for that setup.
It seem to me also that there should be a standards groups here. Like what kind of quality/bit rate digital or analog should be. The same for HD(The issue with HD-Lite). I belive that with more and more people buying expensive TV set they are going to start complaining about these quality problems.
It's not really that inconvenient. I assume your tv has several videos. Simply set up your s-video or rca jack in video 2, for example. When watching SD channels, simply press the video on your remote and when the display shows video 2, you are there. It's no different from changing the video output for your dvds -- you just press a button to get the right video output.riverawynter said:
Suicidal? It takes maybe 5 seconds and you don't even have to get out of your chair! Before remotes, people used to have to get up evey time they changed channels. I doubt many of them committed suicide over it...
I don't know if this is the answer and I'm not at home so I can't tell you the correct menu choice but. . .
I decided to switch from cable TV to satellite for the exact same reason. The SD channels on cable were very grainy. When they first came out and set up Dish Network I noticed the PQ with satellite didn't seem very good either and I told the installer. He didn't seem to agree and said something about, "well, it's a large screen tv and there are only so many pixels, blah, blah, blah." After he left I discovered a TV setup (or something like that) menu on the Dish Network menus on-screen. I decided to check it out and lo and behold it was set to 480i instead of 720p. When I switched it to 720p, the PQ improved dramatically.
I decided to switch from cable TV to satellite for the exact same reason. The SD channels on cable were very grainy. When they first came out and set up Dish Network I noticed the PQ with satellite didn't seem very good either and I told the installer. He didn't seem to agree and said something about, "well, it's a large screen tv and there are only so many pixels, blah, blah, blah." After he left I discovered a TV setup (or something like that) menu on the Dish Network menus on-screen. I decided to check it out and lo and behold it was set to 480i instead of 720p. When I switched it to 720p, the PQ improved dramatically.
I've been involved in these discussions several times in several forums over the years. In the end, it comes down to what one finds acceptable.
Nearly all of my comparisons have been on calibrated TVs, as I noted before. On sets ranging from 20" to 47". All connected via the best possible method between the receiver and the TV. All with strong satellite signals. Using a multitude of different Dish receivers in 4 different homes. To my eyes all of them have been very consistent, all yielding almost exactly the same picture, varying pretty much only in size.
However to the eyes of nearly everyone that I assisted in tuning their systems to optimal conditions, they were quite satisfied.
To me it is a matter of optimizing an inferior product. Sort of like taking a Ford Escort w/automatic and tuning it to its maximum performance with stock parts. You can tighten the suspension up a bit, get it back to stock horsepower, and maybe even put in a K&N air filter. The original owner might take it for a spin and declare that it drives great. It is still just a dog Escort. But at least it's the best Escort it can be.
So you can (and should) tune up E*'s SD as best you can. But in the end it is still a 360 line, 2-2.5mbs digital video signal, that I believe has been downrezzed to 480x480. You can't make this pig into any more than a nice, shiny pig. If your cable company is delivering a very good quality(which would be rare) analog image, then it would give you a much better source to work with than what E* gives you.
For example, I have VHS tapes that yield far better fine detail than E*'s SD, and that's a crying shame.
Nearly all of my comparisons have been on calibrated TVs, as I noted before. On sets ranging from 20" to 47". All connected via the best possible method between the receiver and the TV. All with strong satellite signals. Using a multitude of different Dish receivers in 4 different homes. To my eyes all of them have been very consistent, all yielding almost exactly the same picture, varying pretty much only in size.
However to the eyes of nearly everyone that I assisted in tuning their systems to optimal conditions, they were quite satisfied.
To me it is a matter of optimizing an inferior product. Sort of like taking a Ford Escort w/automatic and tuning it to its maximum performance with stock parts. You can tighten the suspension up a bit, get it back to stock horsepower, and maybe even put in a K&N air filter. The original owner might take it for a spin and declare that it drives great. It is still just a dog Escort. But at least it's the best Escort it can be.
So you can (and should) tune up E*'s SD as best you can. But in the end it is still a 360 line, 2-2.5mbs digital video signal, that I believe has been downrezzed to 480x480. You can't make this pig into any more than a nice, shiny pig. If your cable company is delivering a very good quality(which would be rare) analog image, then it would give you a much better source to work with than what E* gives you.
For example, I have VHS tapes that yield far better fine detail than E*'s SD, and that's a crying shame.
I am a PQ fanatic and have disliked the SD PQ from Dish since the early 2000's, thus, I have dropped all SD programming except what comes with the Show/HBO movie packs. I just purchased a Gateway 21" LCD monitor that has a Faroujda processor in it and I can tell you that the PQ has jumped a quantum leap viewing SD on this monitor. Even viewing my Panny DVR via component now looks almost HD quality, it is amazing.
riverawynter said:
You may be right. I have an 811 connected to a Tosshiba rptv, It looks great, My neighbor has a 622 connected to a Sony LCD and his look very good, another neighbor has a 811 connected to a Hitachi RPTV and his is also good. We all are connected via component.
I have a 622 being installed on monday If the PQ is falls off then I'll have to consider wether to keep the 622.
Also, don't forget that most TV's do more video processing on lower-quality analog inputs than on component the digital inputs, things like comb filter, etc... So, comparing PQ on source A going through one type of input to source B going through a different input isn't a valid comparison.
Personally, I find most SD "watchable", save for my SD locals, which are horrible. Thank goodness for my silver sensor antenna and a clean line of sight to my local broadcast towers 10 miles away
Personally, I find most SD "watchable", save for my SD locals, which are horrible. Thank goodness for my silver sensor antenna and a clean line of sight to my local broadcast towers 10 miles away
OK, I am hooked up, Color is better -more saturation.
I see very little if any difference in analog PQ compared to my 811. I think the PQ is very good in comparison to what I had and my neighbor has with Adelphia.
I see very little if any difference in analog PQ compared to my 811. I think the PQ is very good in comparison to what I had and my neighbor has with Adelphia.
happy with SD (no snow/interference)
Dish SD is 544x480, and varies on soft channels from around 2mbps to maybe 2.5.
On some sharper channels, possibly not locals, It may exceed 3.0 but not 3.5mbps.
That data rate may be misleading because they run very long GOPs.
They should be 18(?) if memory serves, and I routinely see 'em in excess of 48 frames.
When the video is re-encoded to have more more I frames and shorter GOPs, the data rate is a bit higher.
(meaning that the 2.0 or 2.5 number looks artificially low for what it is.)
I've been watching on a 27" CRT from about 10-12 feet for a few years.
It does scare me to consider a 42" HD set, and what I'll see.
Luckily, everyone has a Radio Shack nearby, and they either currently have a 522, or are putting in a Vip 622.
Also, the stores are stocking up with 32, and 37" LCD HD sets, so you can go get a peek before buying.
As for the VHS comment, I once had a Sony VHS recorder that was nearly indistingushable from my top-of-the-line laser disc player, on a 45" Mitsubishi projection CRT set.
But, I did select brands of tape to get that good.
Some years ago, I tried to replace the VCR. You just can't find top-line VCRs any more.
Guess there's no demand/market.
...and it does sorta date us...
I did quite enjoy your entire rant.Tom Bombadil said:
Dish SD is 544x480, and varies on soft channels from around 2mbps to maybe 2.5.
On some sharper channels, possibly not locals, It may exceed 3.0 but not 3.5mbps.
That data rate may be misleading because they run very long GOPs.
They should be 18(?) if memory serves, and I routinely see 'em in excess of 48 frames.
When the video is re-encoded to have more more I frames and shorter GOPs, the data rate is a bit higher.
(meaning that the 2.0 or 2.5 number looks artificially low for what it is.)
I've been watching on a 27" CRT from about 10-12 feet for a few years.
It does scare me to consider a 42" HD set, and what I'll see.
Luckily, everyone has a Radio Shack nearby, and they either currently have a 522, or are putting in a Vip 622.
Also, the stores are stocking up with 32, and 37" LCD HD sets, so you can go get a peek before buying.
As for the VHS comment, I once had a Sony VHS recorder that was nearly indistingushable from my top-of-the-line laser disc player, on a 45" Mitsubishi projection CRT set.
But, I did select brands of tape to get that good.
Some years ago, I tried to replace the VCR. You just can't find top-line VCRs any more.
Guess there's no demand/market.
...and it does sorta date us...
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I've been a Dish subscriber for about six years now. I got my first HDTV on Halloween (two TVs, actually) and continued using my Dish 501 receiver for about 5 weeks. I got quite familiar with how SD looks on both sets.
Today, I got a 622 & 211 installed. I must say that the SD quality is inferior to what I just had yesterday. I did change the TV setting on both receivers from 480i to 1080i right away (both TVs are 1080p, native) and I can't believe that it's still different from my 501 receiver. The HD content, for the most part, looks very impressive. I have few beefs there. Just some tweaking, I suspect. But the SD PQ is an issue for me.
I like the suggestion of using HDMI for HD and then switching to S-Video for SD because I was using S-Video on my 501 receiver. Perhaps that's the answer.
The only thing I can complain about right now on HD (other than the HD-Lite suspects) is the black level on most stations is poor. I think it's the receiver because when I change channels and wait 2-3 seconds for image to show up, it's a charcoal gray, not black. Hmmmmm......If anyone has advice on that, let me know.
One is RPTV 1080p and the other is LCD 1080p.
spike
Today, I got a 622 & 211 installed. I must say that the SD quality is inferior to what I just had yesterday. I did change the TV setting on both receivers from 480i to 1080i right away (both TVs are 1080p, native) and I can't believe that it's still different from my 501 receiver. The HD content, for the most part, looks very impressive. I have few beefs there. Just some tweaking, I suspect. But the SD PQ is an issue for me.
I like the suggestion of using HDMI for HD and then switching to S-Video for SD because I was using S-Video on my 501 receiver. Perhaps that's the answer.
The only thing I can complain about right now on HD (other than the HD-Lite suspects) is the black level on most stations is poor. I think it's the receiver because when I change channels and wait 2-3 seconds for image to show up, it's a charcoal gray, not black. Hmmmmm......If anyone has advice on that, let me know.
One is RPTV 1080p and the other is LCD 1080p.
spike
Adjustments
It sounds like you need to readjust the monitors. Record the HD test pattern off HDNET. It is going to be broadcast 12/10 (sun) a 6:50 E.S.T. Adjust from that to get you picture peaked out. There is a thread either on Sat Guys or DBSTalks about doing just this. You are now in a different world of TV than the SD world you have been used to. If one can afford it you should have a service man come out and calibrate your monitors. The way the sets come to the customer is adjusted for in store view which is all jacked up to be super bright and the colors very vivid. Most sets are going to look wrong unless you get a good setting that will give good compromise between the two or have two different setting 1 for HD & 1 for SD. In the statement above you are talking about the black level that is an indication that 3 things need adjusting 1 brightness level is too high, 2 contrast is too high, & 3 sharpness control is peaked to high. All of these sound like the way that units are set up for watching on the showroom floor.
It sounds like you need to readjust the monitors. Record the HD test pattern off HDNET. It is going to be broadcast 12/10 (sun) a 6:50 E.S.T. Adjust from that to get you picture peaked out. There is a thread either on Sat Guys or DBSTalks about doing just this. You are now in a different world of TV than the SD world you have been used to. If one can afford it you should have a service man come out and calibrate your monitors. The way the sets come to the customer is adjusted for in store view which is all jacked up to be super bright and the colors very vivid. Most sets are going to look wrong unless you get a good setting that will give good compromise between the two or have two different setting 1 for HD & 1 for SD. In the statement above you are talking about the black level that is an indication that 3 things need adjusting 1 brightness level is too high, 2 contrast is too high, & 3 sharpness control is peaked to high. All of these sound like the way that units are set up for watching on the showroom floor.
First of all, thanks for the tip on HDNET b'casting a test pattern. That's good information.
Thanks for your recommendations on adjusting my TV. Rereading my post, I think I may have not painted the picture as best I could have. Here's my update.
I'm aware of "torch mode". My main HDTV is a JVC RPTV and I've made the adjustment from "Dynamic" (the default picture setting) to "Theater Pro". It took some time for my eyes to adjust, but I'm confident now that it's a better setting. Brightness, contrast, saturation and sharpness are all returned to decent settings and it's a warmer color temperature. However, it's in this Theater Pro mode that I still feel the black levels are poor. Here's why...
I adjusted my TV using Theater Pro as a starting point, then followed calibration directions from a THX DVD. JVC's Theater Mode nearly nailed every test on there. Maybe this kind of calibration is not appropriate for HD receivers, but watching DVDs and Dish SD after that was quite good (resolution of SD aside). Now that I have a 622 hooked up to it, SD is rather poor again, but I've not changed the TV picture's settings. Only the receiver has changed. My two biggest gripes are:
- Black levels are different for every channel (SD & HD)
- SD often has interlacing that never smooths out (like the CNBC static logo and the tickers crawling across the screen, for example.)
These are new issues for me going from my 501 receiver to the 622.
HD content (those that are truly 1920x1080) look amazing, aside from occasional black levels being inconsistent from station to station.
Lastly, I've explained everything above from the experience I've had with the 622 on my JVC RPTV. But I have nearly identical issues with my 211 on a Sharp Aquos LCD. Before this TV, it had Comcast cable running on it for five weeks. Black levels on the Comcast channels were a bit better than what I'm seeing now with the 211.
So, in review...
I'm going to take your advice and record the HDNET test pattern. Thanks for the headsup. I'll continue tweaking my settings to get what I like. But if this problem sounds familiar to anyone in the same boat and can see something that I'm missing during this transition from 501 to 622 & 211, let me know!
spike
Thanks for your recommendations on adjusting my TV. Rereading my post, I think I may have not painted the picture as best I could have. Here's my update.
I'm aware of "torch mode". My main HDTV is a JVC RPTV and I've made the adjustment from "Dynamic" (the default picture setting) to "Theater Pro". It took some time for my eyes to adjust, but I'm confident now that it's a better setting. Brightness, contrast, saturation and sharpness are all returned to decent settings and it's a warmer color temperature. However, it's in this Theater Pro mode that I still feel the black levels are poor. Here's why...
I adjusted my TV using Theater Pro as a starting point, then followed calibration directions from a THX DVD. JVC's Theater Mode nearly nailed every test on there. Maybe this kind of calibration is not appropriate for HD receivers, but watching DVDs and Dish SD after that was quite good (resolution of SD aside). Now that I have a 622 hooked up to it, SD is rather poor again, but I've not changed the TV picture's settings. Only the receiver has changed. My two biggest gripes are:
- Black levels are different for every channel (SD & HD)
- SD often has interlacing that never smooths out (like the CNBC static logo and the tickers crawling across the screen, for example.)
These are new issues for me going from my 501 receiver to the 622.
HD content (those that are truly 1920x1080) look amazing, aside from occasional black levels being inconsistent from station to station.
Lastly, I've explained everything above from the experience I've had with the 622 on my JVC RPTV. But I have nearly identical issues with my 211 on a Sharp Aquos LCD. Before this TV, it had Comcast cable running on it for five weeks. Black levels on the Comcast channels were a bit better than what I'm seeing now with the 211.
So, in review...
I'm going to take your advice and record the HDNET test pattern. Thanks for the headsup. I'll continue tweaking my settings to get what I like. But if this problem sounds familiar to anyone in the same boat and can see something that I'm missing during this transition from 501 to 622 & 211, let me know!
spike
Your cable might be all digital now, my local cable company started digital simulcast of all the analog stations so if you have a cable box and tune to channel 3 it tunes a digital feed instead of the analog channel 3.
It's not really that inconvenient. I assume your tv has several videos. Simply set up your s-video or rca jack in video 2, for example. When watching SD channels, simply press the video on your remote and when the display shows video 2, you are there. It's no different from changing the video output for your dvds -- you just press a button to get the right video output.
Suicidal? It takes maybe 5 seconds and you don't even have to get out of your chair! Before remotes, people used to have to get up evey time they changed channels. I doubt many of them committed suicide over it...
Clearly you don't live with the average woman.
My universal remote is programmed to execute marcos to turn on/off the equipment to watch TV and switch things around to watch a DVD. It all works fine if you don't wave the remote around once you pushed the macro button. Frequently I hear "The TV is messed up again. Can you fix it?". I *never* have that problem myself.
