Need help adding KU to 10' C-band FTA dish

[arlo]

Had some success moving dish a bit closer to actual degree. So now we are a couple of counts east from initial peaking of the KBS station. Signals strength the same after adjusting, but now the LNB is not pointing towards the center post a much. It still is far from being looking at the center however. So now we will start looking east. We did try to get the PBS stations again at 125W but no luck.

Thanks again to all.

jjs10foot

A little confused. You mention "but now the LNB is not pointing towards the center post a much". Kinda' tells me you angled the lnbf to point more towards the dish rim? A typo?
Look at my dish rim pic. To keep the look angle smallest and trying to get closer to that 5-6 degree C/Ku positional difference you should be tilted a bit more towards center. Try imagining a 30" circle with the edge just touching the center butonhook arm mount at the center of the dish. After you peak signal you should be a bit stronger.

 

[jjs10foot]

A little confused. You mention "but now the LNB is not pointing towards the center post a much". Kinda' tells me you angled the lnbf to point more towards the dish rim? A typo?
Look at my dish rim pic. To keep the look angle smallest and trying to get closer to that 5-6 degree C/Ku positional difference you should be tilted a bit more towards center. Try imagining a 30" circle with the edge just touching the center butonhook arm mount at the center of the dish. After you peak signal you should be a bit stronger.

Sorry for confusion. Before my trying to re-peak the dish by jogging a little more east, the counts were at 263. As recommended, we started to jog the dish a bit east and as we did so kept adjusting the LNB to keep the signal at maximin. Before doing so, the LNB was pointing about 1/3 of the way towards the rim AND was pointing right at the center post.

After some adjusting we were able to get the same signal intensity at a count of 261 (a little east). There are approximately 2.7 counts per degree. So we did not change things very much as the intensity was still about the same. What did change is, while the LNB is still pointing about 1/3 towards the rim, but now is no longer pointing directly at the center post anymore.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

Thanks

jjs10foot

 

[N6BY]

From the photos it looks like you are using a KU LNBF that is designed for an offset dish and a much larger F/D ratio, probably around 0.6.

But your C Band dish probably has an F/D ratio around 0.4, so the KU LNBF is only "seeing" a portion of your dish.

I use an Inverto KU LNBF on my Birdview dish because it is adjustable down to 0.4 F/D.

 

[jjs10foot]

Update

Having no success in finding other KU channels besides the Korean station on G18 123W (12078V 3680) which seems to be very strong, so strong it is tough to get a true peak with the dish and LNB position. I can move the dish and the LNB seemingly all over the place and the signal does not change that much.

Anyhow we got it peaked best we can with the LNB about 6 degrees W from the true position.

So then we tried to find channels on SES3 103W, we get a 65% signal on 11760H 30000 but my receiver/LNB cannot lock anything in with a blind scan. The same offset was used to peak the signal as with G18.

When we move to G19 KU we get nothing, not even a hint of a signal with the same offset and scanning back and forth. At that location we cannot reach the LNB to do any adjustments.

Of course this is the one we would like to get G19 due to all the channels.

I suspect my <$20 LNB may be part of the problem. Below is a photo of the box.
If so any suggestions for a more sensitive LNB that won't break the bank.

I looked at prices for the Inverto KU LNBF that N6BY uses, but its several hundred bucks for some models. Again this is hobby at this time and that's too much.

Thanks
jjs10foot

 

[a33]

We mounted it due west of the CB LNB when the dish is pointing straight up (due south).

So, this would be with the two LNBs exactly level, I presume?
Did you also try/experiment to set the byrider LNB a fraction LOWER than level?

Viewing your photo's, it looks like you have the cable from the LNB at the horizontal plane instead of the vertical plane, mixing up the hor and vert polarization indication in your receiver. Did you take that into account?
(With a blind scan, that doesn't matter; it would just result in opposite polarization indication.)

I assume you are aware that signal strength is not really important? But it is signal quality (or S/N or SNR) that is important?

It is a pity that you don't have a simple sat-beeper or sat-finder. When trying to FIND a satellite signal (any signal at all), it works easier than with the receiver indication, I find. For FINETUNING, the receiver indication works best.

When the signal quality is already at/near maximum level, try a weaker transponder if possible. Otherwise, put a moistered cloth over the LNB, to deteriorate signal that way, and get levels again that aren't at 100%.


Greetz,
A33

 

[primestar31]

jjs10foot What A33 is saying above, is this: Put your dish at true south, highest point of your arc. The KU lnb MUST be installed exactly level to the EAST or WEST of the C-band lnb. Meaning, IF you used an actual carpenters level to mount it, mount it level at the SAME centerline as the C-band lnb. But ONLY do this when your dish is at top dead center IE: true south.

If you do NOT (and your photos show it's NOT correct) as you follow the C-band arc, the KU sats will be either ABOVE or BELOW what the KU lnb can see, and you'll get exactly what you are getting now, nothing.

 

[jjs10foot]

Wow.

Thanks for the quick replies. I'll try to answer the questions and probably ask many more.

As far as the alignment, just now I put the dish at due south and took photos looking north and east. A you can see the KU LNB is due west of the CB LNB and is what I think in line with the CB LNB. Since I'm at 27N latitude I can't reach the LNB to adjust it, so it was a trial and error to get it where it is. It looks close to me.

As far as the skew alignment, Th LNB marks are in the same direction as the CB marks per instructions.

Hope I am explaining this correctly and hope I am understanding the geometry.

As far as signal level, I am referencing the quality not level.

My Mini 4k receiver from AMIKO has setting for auto polarity. I'm a little unsure what A33 is saying with regard to that.

Thanks again
jjs10foot

 

[a33]

So, while at due south, the byrider LNB should be level to the central LNB, or just a slightly little bit lower.
You could ascertain that by looking from behind the dish, through the mesh, towards the LNBs, I guess.
As I indicated: the byrider LNB should be level, or slightly lower.

About LNB skew: As the LNB is mounted at the moment, you should use H instead of V in your receiver, and V instead of H. So: it is rotated 90 degrees from what is usual. I was just asking if you were aware of that.

Auto polarity might mean, that the receiver chooses 13 or 18 volt automatically, depending if you defined a transponder on vertical or horizontal in your receiver (I don't know this receiver!).
So it might be you get no reception, because the LNB receives the opposite polarity from what your receiver expects!

To me it looks like the LNB is too much in front of the C-band LNB, at a too short focal length (as was my comment on arlo's setup). But I have no experience with C-band reception, so don't trust me on that! Maybe others can comment on that.

Greetz,
A33

 

[arlo]

Well it's snowing like you know what today. I need to sweep my dish.
Ku signals are sparse at most or I would grab a list of the "hot ones".
One enlightening thing is if you cannot see the 0 skew marks with the dish at its highest arc is to look at the dish polar mount pivots.
A piece of fishing line eyeballed in line with them from the back of the dish and tossed over the top then tightened with the bottom in direct line of the pivots will bisect it and give you an idea.
Your 0 lnb marks need to line up parallel to the string. A great starting point.
Short of renting a scissor lift.

Don't discount the "el cheapo" lnb. I'm using a Geosat Pro and it didn't cost much at all.

Do expect signal levels quite a bit lower than what you see on C-Band.
Where I can expect C-Band channels to lose stability at, oh, 7-8 dB.
Ku at 6 dB is stable and locked on.

Tips. Lets see. Move the dish a touch west and see if your signal can be peaked a bit more?
That lnb needs to be moved east, west, up and down. And in and out of the holder. You did leave wiggle room in that cool as eff bracket I hope.

When your hand is close to the lnb wear light gloves to keep the hand effect to a minimum.
Get off the ladder, away from the lnb. Watch if your body has any influence in reducing signal or if it increases.
Skew angle should never be far off from the baseline 0.
Tuning for skew. It would be nice to find equal signal and footprint V & H transponders.
If you get a horizontal tp at 9 dB peak but the vertical can only peaked at 6.5 dB.
It may be that the weaker one is all you can get (beamed to Brazil). Remember that.
Use the tvro or Satbeam charts to find transponders with similar footprints over the CONUS.

Oh. From experience. A small misalignment of the dish receiving C-Band makes a little bit of difference when zeroing in on satellites across the arc. You have a 10 foot telescope versus the 3 footer in receiving Ku.
I aint quite ready to invest in a dedicated big dish lnbf for Ku.
It's a nice addition to C-Band and was a fun project. It's just that most content on it sorta'.....sucks.


Happy Holidays......and fleas on a dog!!

 

[jjs10foot]

GOT IT!!

Went back and repositioned the KU LNB with the dish due south and positioning it due west at that position. Set the LNB to look at the center of the dish and as suggested a little less (slightly closer towards the dish center) than level with regard to the C-B LNB.

Without touching anything tried a blind scan around 17 counts more west than G19 C-B peak signal. I have 2.7 counts per degree which equated to a little over 6 degrees difference.

At that setting 72 KU TV channels were found and a whole bunch of radio stations. I must have gotten lucky and found the sweet spot directly. Crazy because I do not think we did anything different than the last few days but got again lucky this time.

We are getting an average of 60-70% signal quality on most channels. Also the signal is very sharply peaked. In other words if we go off by one count either way, the signal is lost. With a little more confidence and if I can reach the LNB, I will try to rotate the skew a bit, and fine tweak the LNB, but honestly am afraid to touch it as might lose it and not get it back.

But anyhow before we do that, we plan to go ahead and see what other Satellites we can get. But it was G19 is what we were after.

So THANKS to all who have been following this effort and have given this old man newbie the advice need to get to this point.

I participate in several collector car forums and have found them, like here, to be of great value.

Again thanks and I will continue to provide updates on additional satellites.

jjs10foot.

 

[jjs10foot]

I have follow up question on db signal meters?

Here is a link to shooping for instensity meters. They range from $10-40 to 50 bucks plus. Are they in-line meters?

satellite dish signal db measure - Google Shopping

www.google.com

So my question is, are any of the ones say around $20 or so worth anything?

Any recommendations as we pursue tweaking and peaking our dish. I think we found all the satellites we are going to get, just need to get max signals.

Thanks

jjs10foot

 

[Brct203]

I have follow up question on db signal meters?

Here is a link to shooping for instensity meters. They range from $10-40 to 50 bucks plus. Are they in-line meters?

satellite dish signal db measure - Google Shopping

www.google.com

So my question is, are any of the ones say around $20 or so worth anything?

Any recommendations as we pursue tweaking and peaking our dish. I think we found all the satellites we are going to get, just need to get max signals.

Thanks

jjs10foot

yes those go inline, between lnb and receiver.

If you are considering it in order to fine tune your setup, don't waste your money, it would be useless at that.

However, I have one, it was one of the first accessories I bought, and I love it! But it's important to understand what it does and what it does not do.

It's the simple one, with analog display and just the round knob. It has a backlight - that tells you instantly if the LNB is powered or not.

I call it a "signal finder" rather than "signal meter"

Basicaly it reacts to signal strength, the amount of energy that's at RF level coming from the LNB. I'm not sure if it accurately filters out the out-of-band frequencies but at least it does not react to DC or 22 kHz, so that's good.

However it does not demodulate anything, it's dumb. Think of it like a basic photo cell will tell you mow much light it receives, but it won't take a photo . Well, this "meter" won't give you signal quality, it won't differentiate between FTA satellites, and Dish, DirecTV, or even thermal RF noise coming from obstacles like trees and hills. Just wave your hand in front of the feed and the thing will give you a high pitch like it just found the greatest satellite

However as a basic satellite finder, it's very useful. you can aim a dish roughly until you hear the higher pitch. You'll never be sure of what satellite you're pointing at, but you'll know there's something there. At that point you just do a blind scan and let the receiver break the good or bad news

Just don't think of it as a meter or measuring tool.

 

[arlo]

Too bad. I looked on the Amiko site and surfed the 'net for a few.
The reason I've never needed a signal meter is because Enigma 2 receivers handle phone apps quite well.. Besides being cheap. I just never felt the need for a signal meter.
When I had a canned firmware chinabox receiver I would simply park a laptop in front of the tv on a barstool and call my phone on Skype. With an adequate wifi signal from the house, lag was at a minimum and peaking for performance was pretty easy.
But that was on single satellite peaking with a non steerable dish.
E2 receivers and phone apps let you spin over to to another sat if you're using a steerable dish.

 

[a33]

Any recommendations as we pursue tweaking and peaking our dish. I think we found all the satellites we are going to get, just need to get max signals.

This finetuning I always do with a receiver plus computer screen outside, near the dish. It gives quick visual feedback of the signal quality measure.

Greetz,
A33.

 

[jjs10foot]

I am having success with a monitor outside, so I think I'm ok with that. So far so I'm good getting more and more Ku satellites dialed in.

Thanks again
jjs10foot