Need Birdview experts!

[kevinv]

I don't usually browse this forum too often, but I know there are a few Birdview users on here and I need help with a very odd and infrequent problem.

Simply put, my dish has "locked" up. This happens a couple times a year and I am fairly certain it has something to do with the worm drive or bearings on the ends of the worm drive. I am not sure if "worm" is the proper term, but I am referring to the spinning shaft that rides the flyweel mount.

All necessary components are kept well lubricated with white lithum grease and the motor is running fine. I am able to get the dish moving again, but only after I remove the motor and manually crank on the worm drive with a vise-grip. I would LOVE if I could stop making 3 hour trips across the state to my parents' home (where the dish is located) to fix problems like this.

I would like to know just what those "wheel bearings" on each end of the worm drive do. It appears that one side locks up when the dish is moving one direction, and the then vice versa.

It's a very frustrating problem that I just cannot figure out.

Thanks for any input!

Kevin

 

[linuxman]

Hi Kevin,

I think we have corresponded before on gmail.

Since the last time we communicated, I have discovered how to lube the pivot points on a Birdview dish. I lubed one on the ground which was fairly easy, and I lubed my perfed Birdview while mounted on the pole.

I think the problem you are experiencing is in the pivot points and not the worm gear.

See this thread for an explanation!

Hope that helps!

 

[phlatwound]

If the pivot points are the issue I bet Kevin finds that thread/pics to be VERY helpful.

I also found in very informative, must have missed it before, that's the first time the 2 declination bolt setup hit my radar, wish I had those but washers will work fine if I need them.

 

[linuxman]

If the pivot points are the issue I bet Kevin finds that thread/pics to be VERY helpful.

I also found in very informative, must have missed it before, that's the first time the 2 declination bolt setup hit my radar, wish I had those but washers will work fine if I need them.

Well, IMHO, the washers work better than the 2 bolt declination setup. I have had more problems monkeying with the bolts than just putting the washers in place.

 

[gabshere]

I have discovered how to lube the pivot points on a Birdview dish.

this is a very good point , its what i thought of when first reading the post and before i got to Linuxmans post .

also what kind of power are you throwing to the birdview ? and/or what are you moving the dish with a birdview receiver , a regular 24v analog receiver or a v-box/g-box type ?

 

[kevinv]

Hi Kevin,

I think we have corresponded before on gmail.

Since the last time we communicated, I have discovered how to lube the pivot points on a Birdview dish. I lubed one on the ground which was fairly easy, and I lubed my perfed Birdview while mounted on the pole.

I think the problem you are experiencing is in the pivot points and not the worm gear.



Hope that helps!

Yes, we last corresponded back in early May (last time I had this problem).

Last night I took the rear cover off...cleaned the the bearings with gasoline (appeared to be too much grease build-up, if there can be such a thing), pryed on the dish a while and some how got the dish moving again. I got the dish moving again without having to unbolt the motor, reed sensor, etc, like I usually have to do. Was very glad for that. Did a master reset and re-programmed everything. Every time this happens, the pulse count gets thrown way off and it's easier just to do an MR. As I write, the dish is running smoothly again.

I read your thread about the lubing the pivot points (which NEVER has been done). Can this be done while the dish is mounted and upright (one point at a time of course)?? I would sure hate to take the entire thing apart.

One note on the pivot points, which I am sure lubing is a GOOD thing. I somewhat doubt that is my issue, because when this problem occured a while ago, I did remove the bolts that attach the dish to the flywheel mount and recall rocking the dish back and forth quite easily by hand....noticing absolutely NO friction coming from the pivot points. It moved quite freely east to west. In fact, I had to to keep my hand on the dish as it wanted to fall to the extreme ends of the arc.

Kevin

 

[linuxman]

Yes, we last corresponded back in early May (last time I had this problem).

Last night I took the rear cover off...cleaned the the bearings with gasoline (appeared to be too much grease build-up, if there can be such a thing), pryed on the dish a while and some how got the dish moving again. I got the dish moving again without having to unbolt the motor, reed sensor, etc, like I usually have to do. Was very glad for that. Did a master reset and re-programmed everything. Every time this happens, the pulse count gets thrown way off and it's easier just to do an MR. As I write, the dish is running smoothly again.

I read your thread about the lubing the pivot points (which NEVER has been done). Can this be done while the dish is mounted and upright (one point at a time of course)?? I would sure hate to take the entire thing apart.

One note on the pivot points, which I am sure lubing is a GOOD thing. I somewhat doubt that is my issue, because when this problem occured a while ago, I did remove the bolts that attach the dish to the flywheel mount and recall rocking the dish back and forth quite easily by hand....noticing absolutely NO friction coming from the pivot points. It moved quite freely east to west. In fact, I had to to keep my hand on the dish as it wanted to fall to the extreme ends of the arc.

Kevin

The pivot points can be lubed while the dish is mounted one at a time of course. You have to be very careful to get the bushings lined up and back on without binding them.

If yours moves freely, they may not need it, but both of the ones I did looked like they could use it.

With having to drive so far, it couldn't hurt to do it while there and eliminate the possibility.

 

[Anole]

you grabbed it where ?

I am able to get the dish moving again, but only after I remove the motor and manually crank on the worm drive with a vise-grip.

I didn't realize what ya meant by this the first time I read it.
You are referring to the two bearings , one at each end of the worm.
Not having one, all I can suggest is based on the pictures I've seen.
Are these bronze bushings or ball bearings?

At first, I was also wondering if the voltage from your receiver to the motor was the problem.
4DTVs put out 24 volts as I recall, and the motor is 36 volts.
Long or corroded motor wires could cause a large voltage drop.
Or, the motor brushes (or commutator) could be well worn.

But, what you said has nothing to do with the motor nor its built-in gear train.
And apparently, nothing to do with the actual dish pivots either...?

There should be no circumstances under which you have to "crank on the worm drive with a vise-grip".

edit: I've marked up one of Linuxman's fine pictures to help in this discussion.

 

[kevinv]

Hi Kevin,

I think we have corresponded before on gmail.

Since the last time we communicated, I have discovered how to lube the pivot points on a Birdview dish. I lubed one on the ground which was fairly easy, and I lubed my perfed Birdview while mounted on the pole.

I think the problem you are experiencing is in the pivot points and not the worm gear.



Hope that helps!

I succesfully greased the bottom point just fine. I see what you mean about backing out the bottom bolt too far...which I did! Got it back in easy enough though.

The top pivot point however did not cooperate with us. Removed the cotter pin after quite a struggle and easily removed the nut...but the copper bushing seems to be fused to the threads. After carefully prying upward, the collar broke in a couple places. My dad and I spent a lot of time trying everything we could think of, and came to the conclusion that we would have to break the entire thing to get it out. It did not want to budge and is just too brittle. So, we stopped and put the top nut and cotter pin back on before we did too much damage. If you have an extra one, I'd love to buy it from you .

About just how tight should I make the top nut and bottom bolt? I remember when unscrewing either that it took very little effort. I assume that making both ends "snug" and then backing off a bit is about right? I see that with the top pivot point, the nuts rides on top of the bushing collar while the dish is moving.

 

[linuxman]

I succesfully greased the bottom point just fine. I see what you mean about backing out the bottom bolt too far...which I did! Got it back in easy enough though.

The top pivot point however did not cooperate with us. Removed the cotter pin after quite a struggle and easily removed the nut...but the copper bushing seems to be fused to the threads. After carefully prying upward, the collar broke in a couple places. My dad and I spent a lot of time trying everything we could think of, and came to the conclusion that we would have to break the entire thing to get it out. It did not want to budge and is just too brittle. So, we stopped and put the top nut and cotter pin back on before we did too much damage. If you have an extra one, I'd love to buy it from you .

About just how tight should I make the top nut and bottom bolt? I remember when unscrewing either that it took very little effort. I assume that making both ends "snug" and then backing off a bit is about right? I see that with the top pivot point, the nuts rides on top of the bushing collar while the dish is moving.

The bottom bolt will snug up with enough clearance so that there will be no problems.

The top nut should not be snugged down too tight. The cotter pin will keep it together fine.

It's a shame about the top bushing. I don't have any extras and you will probably need to have one made at a machine shop. If it is froze on that bad, it needed to be lubed for sure.

It should be easy enough to get made. Maybe we can get Phlatwound to take his top bushing off and get measurements for you. they are brass and should be easy enough to make.

His dish is not up yet and has been recently lubed by me, so it should be simple for him to take it off and take precise measurements for you.

If he doesn't respond to what we are writing here, send him a PM. I am sure he would be happy to help.

 

[kevinv]

I didn't realize what ya meant by this the first time I read it.
You are referring to the two bearings , one at each end of the worm.
Not having one, all I can suggest is based on the pictures I've seen.
Are these bronze bushings or ball bearings?

At first, I was also wondering if the voltage from your receiver to the motor was the problem.
4DTVs put out 24 volts as I recall, and the motor is 36 volts.
Long or corroded motor wires could cause a large voltage drop.
Or, the motor brushes (or commutator) could be well worn.

But, what you said has nothing to do with the motor nor its built-in gear train.
And apparently, nothing to do with the actual dish pivots either...?

There should be no circumstances under which you have to "crank on the worm drive with a vise-grip".

edit: I've marked up one of Linuxman's fine pictures to help in this discussion.

If you moved the green arrows inward just a little bit, they'd point to the bearings on each side of the "worm." I am not positive that is where my problem is, but sometimes they are loose and free-spinning (when the dish is working OK) and locked up tight when the dish is stuck.

It's just hard to believe that no assembly or installation manuals on these Birdview dishes did not survive over the years. I would love to know just what these bearings do and if they are supposed to lock up or not. I believe when the dish is moving one direction, one bearing locks up while the other spins...and vice versa.

 

[kevinv]

The bottom bolt will snug up with enough clearance so that there will be no problems.

The top nut should not be snugged down too tight. The cotter pin will keep it together fine.

It's a shame about the top bushing. I don't have any extras and you will probably need to have one made at a machine shop. If it is froze on that bad, it needed to be lubed for sure.

It should be easy enough to get made. Maybe we can get Phlatwound to take his top bushing off and get measurements for you. they are brass and should be easy enough to make.

His dish is not up yet and has been recently lubed by me, so it should be simple for him to take it off and take precise measurements for you.

If he doesn't respond to what we are writing here, send him a PM. I am sure he would be happy to help.

I greatly appreciate any specifics you can provide. Any guess what something like that would cost? Would any local machine shop likely be able to make one?

We could get the bushing to "spin" but could not get it to move upward very much...maybe just 1/16 of an inch. Any more pressure applied would break the collar completely. At present, only about half of the collar remains.

 

[linuxman]

I greatly appreciate any specifics you can provide. Any guess what something like that would cost? Would any local machine shop likely be able to make one?

We could get the bushing to "spin" but could not get it to move upward very much...maybe just 1/16 of an inch. Any more pressure applied would break the collar completely. At present, only about half of the collar remains.

If you can get precise measurements and a picture, any machine shop could make one. They usually charge around $50.00 per hour around here, and can make that in less than an hour. The brass piece will be a little extra, but not much.

I used three screw-drivers on three sides on mine, and just kept gently prying and tapping and it finally popped off. Mine moved in and out all the way around for quite a while before giving up and coming out. Kinda of rocked back and forth one all sides.

 

[phlatwound]

...........Maybe we can get Phlatwound to take his top bushing off and get measurements for you......

Kevin, I'd be glad to if that would be of help......just let me know and I could probably attempt it tomorrow.

 

[Anole]

locating the problem

If you moved the green arrows inward just a little bit, they'd point to the bearings on each side of the "worm." I am not positive that is where my problem is, but sometimes they are loose and free-spinning (when the dish is working OK) and locked up tight when the dish is stuck.

It's just hard to believe that no assembly or installation manuals on these Birdview dishes did not survive over the years. I would love to know just what these bearings do and if they are supposed to lock up or not. I believe when the dish is moving one direction, one bearing locks up while the other spins...and vice versa.

I was just trying to get you to confirm:
- if you disconnected the motor at the big red X
- if you turned the worm shaft
- if maybe the binding was in the bearings under the green arrows . . .
- instead of the bearing surfaces Linuxman was directing you to lube.

At no time should the bearings at the ends of the worm shaft freeze up!
I have no idea if these are ball bearings or sleeve bearings, but I'm thinking some gease will help.
Of course, if they're ball bearings, they may need to be pressed out, and replaced.
But, that goes beyond the scope of locating what's binding.

Of course, if you find the worm and its bearings turn freely, and the only binding is on what Linuxman was describing, that's great.

 

[kevinv]

Kevin, I'd be glad to if that would be of help......just let me know and I could probably attempt it tomorrow.

Yes please! I am no longer at my parents' home, but will be making a trip down during the Thanksgiving weekend. If you can get me the exact measurments, we will get one made.

The original bushing is still attached to our dish...but it is not in good shape. In trying to remove it, about half of the collar broke off. Just too brittle no matter how delicate we tried to pry it out. 24 years of being out in the elements has taken its toll on the thin copper.

Kevin

 

[Anole]

I really feel for you guys with your broken bits.

I have a buddy with a lathe and a mill in his garage, and for $50, I'm sure he'd be happy to ship ya one . . . and gold plate it!
Whatever the treatment is for oil-impregnated bronze bushings, that could probably be applied, too.

If I had a Birdview, or if I get one, I'll have him make up some of these bushings.
HOWEVER, without a dish to fit it onto, it's crazy to make the part blind and not know if it'll fit.

Guess if someone comes up with a proper drawing, I can get his opinion...

 

[phlatwound]

Yes please! I am no longer at my parents' home, but will be making a trip down during the Thanksgiving weekend. If you can get me the exact measurments, we will get one made.

The original bushing is still attached to our dish...but it is not in good shape. In trying to remove it, about half of the collar broke off. Just too brittle no matter how delicate we tried to pry it out. 24 years of being out in the elements has taken its toll on the thin copper.

Kevin

I will take it apart sometime this week, get measurements and take some pics.

 

[linuxman]

I will take it apart sometime this week, get measurements and take some pics.

Hey Phlatwound,

He's going to need caliper type measurements. Very precise!

You may have to take it to someone with that type of equipment to get machine shop type drawings made up from pictures.

 

[N0EXE]

I just finished putting up my birdview solid. When I was cleaning up the upper pivot/rack gear I found the offset sleeve bearing completely seized on the pivot so the sleeve was pivoting on the frame. This sleeve is for setting the gear spacing with the worm gear. This bearing should be held in place on the frame by two set screws, the pivot/rack turns in it. My dish would turn about half the arch and then seize. The offset bearing on mine was very hard to get off (I used heat and a pipe wrench). I ended up polishing the bearing and pivot with polishing rouge to clean them up and get it working again. This fix will probably require you to pull the whole transmission out.
When you mentioned using the visegrip, it sounded familiar to me.