OTHER Multiport voltage switch suggestions needed

[arlo]

Starting this to declutter my ortho install thread.
This one is for the hardware guys.

Switching between lnb's in a OMT install. How to do it?
I have a thingy over on legit.
EB states that he's using a multiswitch that supposedly detects the receiver outputting 13 volts and one port of the switch is selected.
When the receiver switches polarity and outputs 18 volts, a different port is selected.
I believe it's a 4 port switch.

I need at least 3 ports at the dish. With only one coax from the receiver. 2 ports for the ortho lnb's and 1 for a ku band 13/18 volt lnbf.
Obviously, needing one port that voltage switches for the ku feed is mandatory.
With two others that click-on based on the receiver voltage.

Any specific brands and models to choose from?

 

[primestar31]

Starting this to declutter my ortho install thread.
This one is for the hardware guys.

Switching between lnb's in a OMT install. How to do it?
I have a thingy over on legit.
EB states that he's using a multiswitch that supposedly detects the receiver outputting 13 volts and one port of the switch is selected.
When the receiver switches polarity and outputs 18 volts, a different port is selected.
I believe it's a 4 port switch.

I need at least 3 ports at the dish. With only one coax from the receiver. 2 ports for the ortho lnb's and 1 for a ku band 13/18 volt lnbf.
Obviously, needing one port that voltage switches for the ku feed is mandatory.
With two others that click-on based on the receiver voltage.

Any specific brands and models to choose from?

I used one of these back when I was doing an ortho feed. Easy to mod. Naughty Mods II: 4x8 Switch with All 18V outputs

 

[arlo]

I used one of these back when I was doing an ortho feed. Easy to mod. Naughty Mods II: 4x8 Switch with All 18V outputs

Several times digging into the mod did not give anything clear. No theory, slicing into the switch. And. I need clearly the ability to switch between the ortho lnb's. And also to switch the ku lnbf. so fixed voltage for all ports is a no-go. Over one coax.

And until now my understanding of exactly how the different switches with 13/Antenna/18 volt ports operate, I did not realize that they are in fact voltage controlled.
I've searched and searched for a user manual with the theory of the differnet offers on the likes of eBay. Nothing. Tek's site clearly states his voltage switch does what it does.

My assumption was that a diseqc command was needed to select the ports or something similar.
Now I'm of the belief that it works like this.
No voltage on the receiver port, Antenna is active. 13 volts is preset at the receiver port, the 13 volt port to lnb 1 is active and gets 13 volts.

The same would be true if 18 volts is there on the receiver port. The 18 volt port is active.
Put a diseqc 1.1 switch before the voltage switch. Select port 1 of it for c band and voltage polarity from the receiver switches the following switch ports. On a ku satellite in tuner setup. Set port 2 of the diseqc switch to activate the ku lnbf.
Does that sound correct?

 

[primestar31]

You think too much.

These are 22k TONE switches. 22k ON or 22k OFF in the menus. Say Horizontal is OFF and Vertical is ON. Those are the switch ports you'd then screw the particular lnb coax onto. The SWITCH then knows what lnb to select. The voltage the SWITCH provides to the lnbs is independent of the +13 or +18 volts coming from the satellite receiver.

 

[arlo]

Perhaps I missed something then. The option to turn tone on or off is either for the entire satellite selected in tuner setup.
Or for band switching where you set the threshold for a low/high band ku lnbf. I saw it on my 'scope.
In that case in low band. Port 1, no tone, still uses polarity switching. Tone on for high band switches to the port 2 and the lnbf polarity switches with voltage from the receiver.
EB states on legit that the 13/18 volt output to lnb using a 13/Antenna/18 volt switch do in fact sense voltage polarity.
Too many conflicting statements really confuses things.

If tone switches work with the osmio4k. Then hypermegasat sent me 2 brand new defective geosatpro switches along with the 8X1 that did work perfectly. On my 'scope I saw the tone from the receiver but no port switching was done. What are the chances of that?

 

[a33]

If tone switches work with the osmio4k. Then hypermegasat sent me 2 brand new defective geosatpro switches along with the 8X1 that did work perfectly. On my 'scope I saw the tone from the receiver but no port switching was done.

Did you take into account that they could be Ecoda-type switches, as I wrote/answered in your topic at Rick's?

For the rest I'm afraid I lost track of your problems/questions, in your different threads. Cannot say anything sensible ATM.

Greetz,
A33

 

[primestar31]

Titanium Since you can't seem to wrap your head around how these switches just work for ortho feeds, & since Brian can be brilliant on explaining things simply, let's see if I can get him to reply to your questions here. First time I set mine up, was on an MicroHD receiver from him over 10 years ago, so I don't remember everything off hand, & can't look up my old thread right now. I don't at present have an ortho feed on my Edision OS Mio, so I can't advise on the menu settings for that, sorry.

Or maybe pendragon would come back for this. He's the king of orthomode setups.

 

[arlo]

There is not much if any documentation out there for any of the switches or theory of how they work. That's for sure.
A diseqc 1.0, 1.1, etc. I get 100%.
All I needed in clear terms was a method to switch between lnb's exactly like your average, everyday run of the mill low noise block amplifier does. It's pretty darned clear now what is needed and ordered a short while ago.
My head is wrapped pretty tight looking back at all of the (hopefully) wise advice others here needed and received from yours truly.
The 14 & 18 volt ports to me meant that one port always got that voltage no matter what was coming in from the receiver.
And your're gonna' say 'but how do you get 18 volts if only 14 is coming in'?
Same as how can your 12 volt wall-wart powered receiver provide 18 volts to the lnbf? A boost converter.
But it's clear. Thanks for the advice at the other place. Because there is some heavy knuckle dragging going on. Bummer.
Pretty sure if somebody else asks the same ones as me if they don't perform a search.
I'll steer 'em straight.
Like the naughty mod thing. I ain't no monkey see, monkey do kind of dude. Where's the schematic or at least a sketch of what was done?
Another place has a vbox mod. Just stab in a wire from here and tack it in there. Looking at how it's done after looking at the circuit in depth from schematics (other places show), not only does it tax the power supply. It bypasses current limiting. One slip of a wire, *POOF*.
Currently I'm enthused at how PIN diode RF switches work. Perhaps find out why my diseqc 8X1 quit working and why neither of these @&*% tone switches don't switch.

 

[mikekohl]

The most reliable solution I have found uses a conventional 4 input, (output options can be 4, 8 or 16 output depending on manufacturer) powered multiswitch. Use a power inserter that has separate dedicated 13/18 volt connections. If you have 4, 8 or 16 receivers, appropriate multiswitch can connect any of the input options simultaneously and independently.

First two inputs are your 13 and 18 volt connections for Satellite 1.
Inputs 3 and 4 are 13 and 18 volt connections for Satellite 2.

You can install Ku-band on 3 and 4 (with 2 output Ku LNBF) to accommodate a dual Ku-band system as well as a single satellite dual C-band system. Or two separate C-band satellites instead, from fixed or separate dishes.
Motorization would be done separately, but the ease of troubleshooting as well as adding/changing receivers makes this concept well worth considering.

DirecTV used to have this type of powered multiswitch as well as power inserters with 13/18 volt DC power supplies, for commercial installations. A number of aftermarket companies including Zinwell made them too.
So did Pico Macom. Some of these may be hard to find, now that there is limited use in new installations. Another source that I will suggest is Holland Electronics in Ventura, California. They still manufacture and distribute commercial headend products. If they won't sell directly, ask for a dealer that will. Good luck!

 

[arlo]

Thank both of you Mikes.
Have a tru-spec power inserter hooked up right now. Pretty sure it's a clone. Pico Macom has a tru-spec also.
Did an F connector mod to it. It runs hot. An LM317 right next to the 1000uf filter cap. Bolted a computer psu heat sink and spread thermal paste to the regulator ic and heat sink. Way more cooler now. Disabled the selector switch that send power back to the receiver.
Check.
Just ordered a Chieta 4X1 diseqc switch.
Check
Same time ordered a Steren 3X4 multiswitch. 13-14V lnb/terrestrial/17-18V lnb inputs.
Check.
Let's see what develops in a few days.
Thanks guys.

 

[mikekohl]

Thank both of you Mikes.
Have a tru-spec power inserter hooked up right now. Pretty sure it's a clone. Pico Macom has a tru-spec also.
Did an F connector mod to it. It runs hot. An LM317 right next to the 1000uf filter cap. Bolted a computer psu heat sink and spread thermal paste to the regulator ic and heat sink. Way more cooler now. Disabled the selector switch that send power back to the receiver.
Check.
Just ordered a Chieta 4X1 diseqc switch.
Check
Same time ordered a Steren 3X4 multiswitch. 13-14V lnb/terrestrial/17-18V lnb inputs.
Check.
Let's see what develops in a few days.
Thanks guys.

View attachment 172987

Tru-Spec is a Pico Macom trade name. (I was a Pico distributor back in the 80s and 90s).

Many of the Tru Spec parts once made by Pico are long since discontinued. FMT and FM88 traps, HLSJ (Hi Lo VHF) band separators, UVSJ (UHF-VHF band separators) and similar goodies are no longer made, but you may find a few identical items made by Holland Electronics. Mike Holland was once with Pico, and started his own company based up the coast from L.A., in Ventura, CA. He continues to offer a number of such parts that are still useful to the off-air installer, which I cannot seem to find anywhere else.

If you want separate inputs 13 and 17 volt for two dishes, a 4x4 or 4x8 would have been a better choice.
Of course, if you are doing one of the short cut mods and can get things to work, it doesn't matter.

 

[arlo]

Okay. Everything is setup and working very well.
I'd like to pick some brains. The OMT I have is physically the same as a Chaparral dual feed I was looking at.

It was mentioned that the feed throat stick-out looked a bit far. I installed it first as far as the original C2W.
Then tweaked it for maximum signal. It had received well before but I now have a few dB more signal.

I measured my dish and calculated f/D. I came up with .27.
It's a buttonhook feed so moving the scalar is no problem.

I found a Chaparral installation sheet that mentioned a golden ring for f/D below .30.
Not much else to be found on it. I'd like to know Everything about it.
None are available and not really sure if one is absolutely necessary. Since signal is very good. But still. The geek in me comes out.

Photos? Dimensions? Does it fit around the throat or inside inside of it?
Is it absolutely necessary to get every last bit of signal or to hold satellite bleed-over to a minimun?

I say that because as it currently is. I was scanning 107W and got transponders from 105W.
Never ever had that with the C2W.

The document for a Chaparral gives measurements from the front of the feed to scalar rings.
As opposed to the other lnbf's I've dealt with that have a scale on the rear. You know.
No corotor feeds I have and the Chaparral dual lnb feed have a scale on them.


The document was hard to find. Seriously!

I'm a pretty good fabricator. I could turn a golden ring out of aluminum in short order if need be.
Of course, it would be.....aluminum in color. Hah. maybe give the old home anodizing a go??

That critter is a unicorn. Not much on it at all. Help!!!!

 

[primestar31]

I've never seen a Chaparral gold ring in real life, but from what I remember reading about them, they are like a cap that fits over the rim end of the lnb. ONLY the rim, there's nothing covering the middle. Beats me how it's supposed to change anything. The only person here that's still around from time to time and likely to know anything about them, is Brian. Titanium

 

[arlo]

Thanks Mike. Man. I checked the feed to scalar and the numbers come close. From the image above guesstimating what .27 should be. I'm just a hair over 1". So I'm leaving it.
From what Winegard Pinnacle dish info I can gather, I see they were also deep dishes. So, who knows.
Just wanted to be assured that I was getting every little bit of signal I could. It's a bit of a bummer to find the dish has around 50% efficiency. But nice to know a deep dish rejects side interference. Pretty sure 5G will never be anywhere close because I live in the jingweeds.
Maybe the 12' diameter makes up for the lower numbers.
But man! It's been almost a year since having a dish that I can steer. Lots of transponder changes since then.
Surprising to see the signal meter in ViX floored at 100% on many tp's.
Somebody mentioned "too much stuff". Here's my too much. Going in an outdoor enclosure tomorrow.

 

[a33]

Just checking, regarding your photo:

Are the terminating resistors on your 4/1 diseqc switch DC-blocked?
Otherwise, when you would accidentally switch to the terminated ports, they would become warm....

Greetz,
A33

 

[arlo]

Good catch. The switch, after a bit of confusion is a diseqc 1.0. My geosatpro 8X1 was a 1.1.
After trying the 1.0 port settings for A,B, etc.and finally getting it to work. Switching from ports took quite a few seconds. One port for c band and the other for ku. Enough of a delay to make you wonder if it was working or glitchy.
It was suggested to put 75 ohm terminators on the unused ports. Now switching is immediate.
No real worries of switching to an unused port. The geosatpro 1.1 switch didn't care. Unused ports just had screw on caps.

 

[Titanium]

The Golden Ring fit inside the feedhorn. Haven't seen one in years, but they do show up on eBay. Magic Static had (has) several tucked away.

 

[arlo]

I finally found a clear picture of one. Not much, really. It just reduces the throat opening a touch. Whether it would do anything much or if one would be worth the cost when one turns up is up for discussion. I heard not much.
Someone with one and a caliper to measure it would be cool. Thanks Bri.

 

[a33]

Switching from ports took quite a few seconds. One port for c band and the other for ku. Enough of a delay to make you wonder if it was working or glitchy.
It was suggested to put 75 ohm terminators on the unused ports. Now switching is immediate.

What would be the explanation for this phenomenon? What would in this case be the cause for the delay, and how do the terminators counteract that?
From what I've seen as schematics for diseqc switches, I'd think there is no valid path between unused ports and the output port of the switch; the PIN diodes would normally block RF signal. So I don't understand how this works..?
Some switch schematics: Dayzek (diseq) Switch Bağlantıları Devre Şemaları – Elektronik Devreler Projeler

Greetz,
A33

 

[arlo]

Man I don't know. At least you dug up a few schematics. I've been trying to figure out the geosatpro switch.
The only controller IC in the schematics that you can find a datasheet on is the NXP. And it's multifunctional depending on how you program it. I tried dealing with NXP and they are a trip.
PIN diodes are quite neat now that I know more about them.

One scenario is a cd player I worked on that had no audio on one channel. Turned out to be a sink resistor that had come unglued on a DAC output. Maybe with no lnb to provide the controller ic a load, it got balky.
Maybe there is over current protection. And leaving a port in no-man's land slows it's workings. Tell me.
The ZInwell came with terminators for unused outputs. Go figure.

I mean. Sitting with a multimeter in the F port and switching settings in the receiver until I got something to work. Port A came alive with 13/18 volts. Port B on the other hand took a few seconds. Just the meter load on it.
So who knows. The resources out there just said to try a terminiator and see if it switched faster. And it does.
Even if the ports would never have an lnbf hooked to them.
Floating output pins on IC's raise havoc. All I know is it works and hopefully for a long time.