More HD Channels or Higher Res HD?

[Tom Bombadil]

I can absolutely positively prove that NGCHD is NOT mpeg4. I am watching it in SageTV and as of yet, there is not native MPEG4 support in Sage.

Hmmm ... how do you run NGHD through SageTV?

If you are recording off of your Dish receiver, then any MPEG conversion would have already taken place in the receiver, unless you had a way of directly ripping saved programs from a 942/622 without first running them through the HDMI or component outputs.

If Dish is using MPEG4 for NGHD, then it would only be encoded between the Dish transmitter to your receivers hard drive (or to the MPEG4 decoder within the receiver). If you would use any of the video outputs from a Dish receiver to feed another recorder, then those outputs are in uncompressed format. A SageTV PC would then optionally recompress them into MPEG2 (or whatever it used).

Now if a SageTV PC could connect directly to your Dish dish & LNBs and thus act like a Dish tuner/receiver, then you might be able to record in the native MPEG format. I'm not aware of anyone being able to do this.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

In essence, we are talking about having more channels in "very good" quality vs fewer channels in "great" quality. As HD-lite is better than DVD, of course many people are going to think it is fine, more than acceptable.

But what some of us love is that jaw-dropping realism that comes from a high quality, true HD program. And as people buy new, high-end TVs that can do 1920x1080p, a great HD source program can look fantastic. Even on a 1280x720 set, a high quality HD source looks great.

But when our providers start stripping away information, by reducing bit rates so far that compression artifacts become obvious, and/or reducing resolution by 25% to 33%, then while we will still have "very good" TV, it won't be "great."

A lot of us were hoping that HD providers would adhere to official HD standards so that we would have great TV to watch. Alas, the trend is to sub-HD standards, or HD-lite as it is commonly referred to. Many of us believe this is where cable and DBS "HD" is headed. That we can look forward to receiving our "HD" in 1280x1080i @ around 9 mbs via MPEG4. This would enable D* and E* to squeeze in around 5-6 "HD" channels per transponder.

 

[MikeD-C05]

The VOOM channels are in 1280x1080i, i.e. HD-lite. This is all VOOM channels. At this format, the image has only 2/3rds of the original digital information. HOWEVER ... as many HD programs have been recorded using cameras having maximum resolutions of 1440x1080 or even 1280x960 (or lower), it is possible that a very good conversion to 1280x1080i could capture most of the original information.

All channels being broadcast in MPEG4 have been reported as being in 1440x1080i.

HBO and Showtime are being broadcast in 1920x1080i, but frequently at low bitrates, which causes some compression artifacts.

HDNET and HDNMV are in 1920x1080i and usually with good bitrates.

ESPN and ESPN2 are 1280x720p and usually with good bitrates. (Note: 1280x720p contains more image information than 1280x1080i.)

So I would recommend HDNET, HDNMV and ESPN as good examples of HD.

Many people will not notice a difference between a VOOM channel vs HDNET. Heck, many people don't notice much of a difference between upconverted DVD vs true HD. If you have a good HDTV set and you are a critical viewer, who knows what HD can look like, then the differences between VOOM and HDNET jump off the screen at you.

I have portions of the great HD demo program "Winged Migration" recorded from VOOM Equator HD back in November when it was 1920x1080i, again from Equator HD after it was down-rezzed to 1280x1080i, and from HDNET.

The HDNET version is best, with the November Equator HD very close, but the HD-lite Equator version has softer lines and lacks the jaw-dropping realism that HD can provide.

HD-lite does produce a pretty good picture, it just isn't a match for true HD.

So in order to combat the artifacts that are present in mpeg4 channels like STarz and the hd locals, do you recommend that they reduce the resolution to 1280 x 720p or to 1280 x 1080i but increase the bit rates? Or should dish just do all hd to 1280 x 720p? What would give us the best picture for our money without the jerky, choppy artifacts that seem to plague the mpeg4 1080i channels? If 720p has more information then why doesn't Dish just do all the hd channels in 720p and let the sat receiver upconvert to 1080i?

 

[Kirby Baker]

Hmmm ... how do you run NGHD through SageTV?

If you are recording off of your Dish receiver, then any MPEG conversion would have already taken place in the receiver, unless you had a way of directly ripping saved programs from a 942/622 without first running them through the HDMI or component outputs.

If Dish is using MPEG4 for NGHD, then it would only be encoded between the Dish transmitter to your receivers hard drive (or to the MPEG4 decoder within the receiver). If you would use any of the video outputs from a Dish receiver to feed another recorder, then those outputs are in uncompressed format. A SageTV PC would then optionally recompress them into MPEG2 (or whatever it used).

Now if a SageTV PC could connect directly to your Dish dish & LNBs and thus act like a Dish tuner/receiver, then you might be able to record in the native MPEG format. I'm not aware of anyone being able to do this.

Ever hear of a nifty gadget called R5000? Thats how. No conversion at all. TS captures to hard drive.

I'm watching NGC HD right now through sage and r5000, it is MPEG2. If it was MPEG4, I wouldnt be able to watch it, until of course I come up with a GUID for the proper demultiplexer filter to process MPEG4 in Sage

By the way, HGTV HD is also mpeg 2

And while I'm at it, NGC HD is 1280x720p as we all knew, running about 15.5 mbit. HGTV HD is 1920x1080i, and around 14.4mbit, as measured from 61.5. Cant get 129 here so I cant give you readings on the channels there. I'll do the MPEG4 channels later if anyone wants them.

 

[MikeD-C05]

What about the Star hd channel? I would be interested to know what it is at since it looks like total crap all the time when there is ANY MOVEMENT on the screen. I would also like to know what the Houston Cbs station is at too since it too looks like crap when there is movement. The Cbs station is supposed to be at 1080i but I Know it is not looking right.

So Kirby I'm interested in what you find out.

 

[dfergie]

I'll do the MPEG4 channels later if anyone wants them.

Please do!

 

[Kirby Baker]

Ok, just ran a 3 minute test on both NFL and Starz. Now I know that isnt much, and both right now are showing 4:3 material. Plus another issue, I'm a cheap bastard, and wont fork out the $100 for full TSReader. I am assuming that the Lite version is still reporting a valid bitrate though. On both channels at just after 7pm EDT, they are almost identical in bitrate, 14.5-14.6 mbit.

Now that doesnt make much sense to me, whats the point of doing MPEG4 at those bitrates when you have MPEG2 channels at lower bitrates (Showtime, HBO come to mind). I will check Starz again later tonight when they have something thats supposed to be true HD.

 

[dfergie]

Thanks...

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I'd forgotten about the R5000. Are you running it off of a 211/411, so that you can tune the psuedo MPEG4 channels in and then save them as MPEG2 files?

I think it would be risky to have one installed on a 622, given the HDMI problems and seemingly higher rate of failures that people are reporting.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

So in order to combat the artifacts that are present in mpeg4 channels like STarz and the hd locals, do you recommend that they reduce the resolution to 1280 x 720p or to 1280 x 1080i but increase the bit rates? Or should dish just do all hd to 1280 x 720p? What would give us the best picture for our money without the jerky, choppy artifacts that seem to plague the mpeg4 1080i channels? If 720p has more information then why doesn't Dish just do all the hd channels in 720p and let the sat receiver upconvert to 1080i?

The key to having better quality on MPEG4 channels is having better MPEG4 encoders/decoders. I don't think the solution is to hack the resolution and bitrates down. This will get fixed over time. I'm of the opinion that Dish highly desires to fix this.

Many HD channels broadcast in 1080i. None provide dual streams of both 1080i and 720p. So Dish has to handle both formats.

Downconverting 1920x1080i to 1280x720p usually loses a fair amount of information. For example, some systems would sample 2 out of every three lines of horizontal information (1280 from 1920), then upconvert the 540 lines that are produced every 1/60th of a second to 720p, by doing something like doubling every 3rd line.

If they did this and then you had a 1080i set on your end, then either your Dish receiver or TV would have to reconvert it back to 1080i, through some kind of convoluted process that would lose or alter the information even more. Because it wouldn't know what information had been stripped or altered in the first conversion. So by the time you watch it on your 1080i set, it would have a lot of altered information.

So I don't want Dish converting anything from 1080i to 720p or vice versa before transmitting the channel.

What puzzles me is why they are bothering to down-rez VOOM to 1280x1080i, because they are giving those channels enough bandwidth to be in 1920x1080i. The resolution doesn't eat up transponders, bandwidth does.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Just watched a few minutes of the 1989 Bond move "A License to Kill" on the VOOM FilmFest channel. By goodness is it SOFT! Doesn't look like HD at all. I'd complain about a DVD that was this soft.

Don't know if this is due to the down-rezzing or just a bad digital transfer.

I do like that they showed all of the Bond movies in their OAR.

 

[Van]

None of the above, focus first on getting all programming onto a single dish solution, get rid of all the useless programming, fix the problem receivers, rediscover what customer service is and put up or shut up on wanting al a cart.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Technically, Dish has a one-dish solution for most of the USA. Although it would be nice if all the satellites being used for it all worked well.

And I thought Dish abandoned a la carte a few years ago. Have they said anything in the past couple of years about going back to a la carte?

 

[Kirby Baker]

I'd forgotten about the R5000. Are you running it off of a 211/411, so that you can tune the psuedo MPEG4 channels in and then save them as MPEG2 files?

I think it would be risky to have one installed on a 622, given the HDMI problems and seemingly higher rate of failures that people are reporting.

Yep, I have it on a 411. Actually the R5000 will write all channels to a standard TS container. doesnt matter if its MPEG2, MPEG4, or MPEG2 marked for ViP receivers. And as soon as the World cup is over, I'm going to transfer over my cable box R5000 to my 622 hopefully, because Charter cable here has really dropped their bitrates a lot (SW: Ep3 was 9.23GB on cable, 8.71GB on Dish 110 sat).

I think I must have one of the only good 622's out there. Granted I dont have anything with HDMI to test that, but the box itself has worked without issue for me since they fixed the audio on the TV2 coax out.

And a note for those of you wanting to know about Starz HD bitrates on a HD movie. Last night during Cliffhanger (I'm assuming it was true HD) the bitrate was 14.6mbit. This didnt budge at all, looks like they locked in this bitrate rather than using a variable bitrate, does that make any sense? During a 20 test clip, it didnt fluctate hardly at all, 14.59 to 14.62 was the range.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Did it still look jerky to you? It did to me and when the credits came on they jerked across the screen vertically. It still looks bad to me.

 

[Kirby Baker]

I'll be honest, I only actually watched about 30 seconds. The clip was from when Sly and the girl were in the cave and the black guy was beatin the crap outta him, until he got speared up on the stalag(m/t)ite.

The little bits of Starz I have watched so far didnt look too bad, but I havent really concentrated on it, maybe tonight I can take a closer look.

Given the bitrate of this channel (assuming that TS reader is measuring it correctly) whats the point of it even being in MPEG4? 14.6 mbit is more than enough for a movie channel to do full res MPEG-2.

 

[Van]

Technically, Dish has a one-dish solution for most of the USA. Although it would be nice if all the satellites being used for it all worked well.

In theory they do but in reality they never have as to have all of the programming that is provided through dish you would need to have 2 - 3 dishes even now.

And I thought Dish abandoned a la carte a few years ago. Have they said anything in the past couple of years about going back to a la carte?

Again in theory they have it now if but only for a channel or two, true al a carte would be allowing you to pick individual channels and not packages that still have channels you dont want.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Yes, full a la carte would allow you to pick the exact channels you want. But Dish is not going in that direction and I don't know why anyone would think that they would offer this. They are offering it for a few add-on channels, like the RSNs, PBS, SuperStations. But I don't think they have any inclination at all to offer it on AT60/AT120/AT180 channels.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Given the bitrate of this channel (assuming that TS reader is measuring it correctly) whats the point of it even being in MPEG4? 14.6 mbit is more than enough for a movie channel to do full res MPEG-2.

All of the evidence points to it being an in-production test channel.

Why eat all of the cost of a test channel when you can get people to pay for it?

 

[Mr.Pinkeye]

I'd take higher bitrate over higher resolution. What good is more detail if everytime someone moves they look like a lego man?