Manning vs Brady

[salsadancer7]

Salsa, Elway won 2 Super Bowls. He beat the Packers and the Falcons. The Falcons game was his last. I hate Elway, too. He hitched the Broncos to him and pulled them to a win over the Packers. He dived into the end zone in the Packers game and they sent him flying. Unfortunately, he got up Just kidding. That he went so all out in that game seemed to really inspire his team. Because Elway has 2 rings makes it's a must that the Packers win another Super Bowl (or two) for Favre.

I know he did...I but I was saying was EVEN if he didn't....He would have still been one of the greatest QBs ever.

 

[markh]

My mistake, I read it wrong. But don't you think he's a little greater for winning two? At least a little greater than Marino. That's why the Packers have to win another Super Bowl.

 

[ONUOsFan]

OK all im saying is those stats are misleading. Manning is just good at getting rid of the ball at the right time. Its the same reason favre never gets sacked and his offensive line stunk for the last at least 3-4 seasons (not including this year).

As a Colts fan who has watched almost every game since Manning arrived, I agree with all of you.

Yes, the Colts have had a really good line the last few years, although there have been certain games where they have been worthless and Peyton has been running for his life.

Yes, some of what makes their stats look so good is that Peyton gets rid of the ball.

Overall, though, they are very good (Jeff Saturday is one of the best in the game), and don't overlook the fact that they have opened up a lot of holes in the running game the last couple years, too.

Personally, I don't think the Pats line is any better than the Colts (when healthy) - they just haven't played anyone who has the first clue about getting pressure on the quarterback except for the Colts and the Eagles, both of whom had success getting to Brady and made him look human.

 

[salsadancer7]

My mistake, I read it wrong. But don't you think he's a little greater for winning two? At least a little greater than Marino. That's why the Packers have to win another Super Bowl.

Not really....the Baltimore Ravens proved you don't need a great QB to win. So because he won a SB, he becomes a better QB? Nope.

I am seperating the individual, the QB, from the team..... I can not find a team that has won the Super Bowl that was NOT a complete team.

 

[ONUOsFan]

Not really....the Baltimore Ravens proved you don't need a great QB to win. So because he won a SB, he becomes a better QB? Nope.

I am seperating the individual, the QB, from the team..... I can not find a team that has won the Super Bowl that was NOT a complete team.

Yep - that was my point a while back. Plenty of teams have won without great quarterbacks, but I can't think of a single quarterback that won without a great team.

 

[Cranked]

As a Colts fan who has watched almost every game since Manning arrived, I agree with all of you.

Yes, the Colts have had a really good line the last few years, although there have been certain games where they have been worthless and Peyton has been running for his life.

Yes, some of what makes their stats look so good is that Peyton gets rid of the ball.

Overall, though, they are very good (Jeff Saturday is one of the best in the game), and don't overlook the fact that they have opened up a lot of holes in the running game the last couple years, too.

Personally, I don't think the Pats line is any better than the Colts (when healthy) - they just haven't played anyone who has the first clue about getting pressure on the quarterback except for the Colts and the Eagles, both of whom had success getting to Brady and made him look human.

Yea I was thinking about my last post and you are right. They are very good. It just seems Manning is running for his life alot more than Brady does no matter what the stats say. And when I say "running for his life" I dont mean all the time, just more often than Brady. At least this year for sure.

 

[Cranked]

Yep - that was my point a while back. Plenty of teams have won without great quarterbacks, but I can't think of a single quarterback that won without a great team.

That was kinda my original point also when part of the OP's original arguement was 3 rings to 1 with manning. You CANT win with just a great QB. You need a team effort, and fortunately for Brady, he plays on a great team. All those years of manning missing out on the superbowl, their defense was horrific.

Its not as if Brady carried the team on his back like, as someone else pointed out recently, Elway did it in the win over the Packers. Not to take away from Brady in the least, but those patriot teams overall were great.

 

[duchen]

'72 Dolphins; Marino & the Bears!

Some quick notes on all of the above:

My guess is that most of you did not see the 1972 Dolphins and your opinions are what you read. I heard Jimmy Johnson call them "1 Year wonders" and noone addressed the comment above that the Dolphins were great for 1 year.

So, I will do my best.

The 1972 Dolphins were not just great for 1 year. They were in the middle of 3 straight Super Bowl appearances and they won 2 of them.

They went 32-2 in their back to back title years (1972 and 1973).

Basically, they lost 1 meaningful game over that 2 year period.The second game which they lost in 1973 came in week 13 when they pulled their big guns; the Dolphins had clinched everything by week 10. In meaningless games (for Miami because of the playoff rotation and that Miami had clinched the division), they beat the Cowboys and Steelers (playoff teams) in weeks 11 and 12.

Then, as noted, they rested Griese, Csonka, Warfield and other starters in a week 13 game against a non-contender (the Colts) and lost.


The '85 Bears were not better. The '72 Dolphins led the NFL in offense with a dominant running team. And, for most of the year, they had to rely on their back up quarterback, 38 year old Earl Morrall.

The '72 Dolphins also led the NFL in defense and had 3 shut outs. They would have shutout the Redskins in the Super Bowl, except for Garo Yepremian's special teams blunder. They had to win the AFC Championship on the road because the playoff games were rotated in those days.

In contrast, the '85 Bears were weak at the corners and covered that up with their blitzing. And, they did something the Dolphins did not do-- they lost a game. There is a big difference between undefeated and 1 loss.


I see the same attitude in this year's New England team I saw in the '72 Dolphins. I saw it in their demeanor when they played Miami here. I saw it in the way they came back against the Colts (reminiscent on Miami 16, Minnesota 14, in 1972). If they go undefeated, like Miami, they will have to win games after they clinch everything. This looks like an historic team and I am admiring them.

On another point, Marino, was not a "whiner." His receivers loved him.

 

[duchen]

As for Cranked..

You ad hominem attack is pathetic.

I saw Montana win 2 Super Bowls in person; I saw Elway, Farve.. all of them. And I saw them play in person. I also saw John Unitas in his prime and Bart Starr (hardly anyone mentions him any more) in his prime in person (Super Bowl II!). And the great Dan Fouts, too.

I saw them on TV, too.

Brady already had won as many Super Bowls as Montana and more than the others (except Starr). He is in the middle of the greaest year a QB has ever had. And, its more than just the weapons he has -- certainly Montana had them.

Maybe you did not see Brady's two last minute comeback victories in the Super Bowls. Yes, the Pats had great teams. But, they would not have won the Super Bowl his rookie season with Bledsoe. Brady made that offense great.

 

[ONUOsFan]

You ad hominem attack is pathetic.

I saw Montana win 2 Super Bowls in person; I saw Elway, Farve.. all of them. And I saw them play in person. I also saw John Unitas in his prime and Bart Starr (hardly anyone mentions him any more) in his prime in person (Super Bowl II!). And the great Dan Fouts, too.

I saw them on TV, too.

Brady already had won as many Super Bowls as Montana and more than the others (except Starr). He is in the middle of the greaest year a QB has ever had. And, its more than just the weapons he has -- certainly Montana had them.

Maybe you did not see Brady's two last minute comeback victories in the Super Bowls. Yes, the Pats had great teams. But, they would not have won the Super Bowl his rookie season with Bledsoe. Brady made that offense great.

I just have to nitpick on this last point, although I agree with most of the rest of what you said. Yes, Brady led drives at the end of those games and they would not have won with Bledsoe, but I would not call any of their offenses (until this year) great. The team was great all around, but they have never lit up the scoreboard - again, until this year.

 

[Paul Wozniak]

No quarterback is ever great without a strong Offensive line. Thats why the Pats succeed, they invested heavily in drafting O linemen and worked everything around them.

This is why the 1999 and 2001 Rams were so good. (but Martz disassembled that line )

Somebody should tell Matt Millen, and Clay Ford of the Lions this. All great football teams are built around the line of scrimmage out. The Lions have never grasped this basic tenet of football 101.

 

[duchen]

The point was...

The last minute drives in the Super Bowl. Brady elevated the Pats.

I agree that the pats offenses were not great. The Dolphins used to routinely stuff them un Miami (mainly b/c Jason taylor killed their OL).

But, Brady got them to the playoffs and has won 3 Super Bowls. He elevates the Pats.

The '49ers had great offemses; but the win over the Bengals was low scoring and was devided inthe last 30+ seconds (Montana led an 86 yard drive). When things are not going great, thats what great QB's can do.

 

[Cranked]

They won the SB against the Rams with great defense. Had the Rams scored as many points as they were all year, I am sorry, but Brady and the boys werent going to keep up.

The other two were won in close games where Brady led them very well to great victories. I must say the score of the panthers game was very suprising. I remember going into that game thinking it would be a great defensive battle. The philly game was just great all around.

And as for this year, you can attribute so much of what they are doing to moss and welker (not to mention there offensive line play). I dont want this to sound the wrong way so dont jump on me like im a brady hater or something, but with that supporting cast I can think of a few QB's in todays day and age alone that would put up those numbers.
p.s. there numbers have a lot to do with running up the score late in the game and going for it on 4th down whenever it comes to that. Not to mention the fact that the rarely run the ball, especially on the goal line.

 

[BlackHitachi]

All i remember is How Brady Fumbled!! I mean the (Tuck rule).. NE should have never been in that Super BOWL!!

 

[Cranked]

All i remember is How Brady Fumbled!! I mean the (Tuck rule).. NE should have never been in that Super BOWL!!

LOL I totally forgot about that.....

 

[salsadancer7]

LOL I totally forgot about that.....

Raider fans have not. We got hosed and would have been in the Super Bowl 2 years in a row.....

 

[Hart5150]

All i remember is How Brady Fumbled!! I mean the (Tuck rule).. NE should have never been in that Super BOWL!!

It was and is still a RULE.

NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble."

What about the blow to the head that caused the fumble?

 

[BlackHitachi]

It was and is still a RULE.

NFL Rule 3, Section 21, Article 2, Note 2: "When a Team A player is holding the ball to pass it forward, any intentional forward movement of his hand starts a forward pass, even if the player loses possession of the ball as he is attempting to tuck it back toward his body. Also, if the player has tucked the ball into his body and then loses possession, it is a fumble."

What about the blow to the head that caused the fumble?

2002 controversy

See also: NFL playoffs, 2001-02 Main article: Tuck Rule Game
The tuck rule resulted in a controversial finish to an NFL playoff game on January 19, 2002, between the New England Patriots and the Oakland Raiders.[2]
In the closing moments of the game in a snowy Foxboro Stadium, with New England trailing by three points, New England quarterback Tom Brady dropped the ball after making a passing motion, his fellow University of Michigan alumnus Charles Woodson tackled Brady, and the Raiders fell on the loose football. The officials initially called the play a recovered fumble, which would have sealed the victory for the Raiders. But after instant replay, referee Walt Coleman reversed this call, declared the play an incomplete forward pass, and gave possession back to New England. In explaining the reversal to the stadium crowd and the television audience, the referee stated that the ball was moving forward at the time it was dropped.[3] In later interviews, the referee stated that it was his explanation, not the reversal, that was in error; the ball was moving backwards when it was lost, but the tuck rule applied. In any case, Patriots kicker Adam Vinatieri later tied the game with a dramatic 45-yard field goal, and the Patriots took advantage of the momentum they had seized, defeating the deflated Raiders in overtime on another field goal and eliminating them from the playoffs. Three weeks later, the Patriots won Super Bowl XXXVI.
While the NFL has defended the call, not everyone has been in agreement. Bruce Allen, who ran the front office for the Raiders at the time of the game still believes it was a fumble. "The rule itself doesn't bother me," he said. "But the way the rule is written, it was a fumble."[4]


Tuck rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NEXT!

 

[BlackHitachi]

The point being no other time in the NFL has this been called!! Hell the fan in NE also new it was a Fumble!

 

[salsadancer7]

The point being no other time in the NFL has this been called!! Hell the fan in NE also new it was a Fumble!

Ah...so they decided to bring this rule OUT OF NO WHERE to screw my Raiders!! I was so pissed I almost cried....LITTERALLY. I set my Raiders hat on fire in the driveway and let out this huge .."FFFFF*************KKKKKK!!!" that I am sure the satellites in the solar system heard me...! I to this day, still believe they did that to the Raiders....they as in the NFL corporate offices/the Commissioner...because Al Davis still had that lawsuit against the NFL. I had NEVER HEARD of that rule till that day....AND have never seen it used since.