LPBS - Bad

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RT-Cat

"My person-well trained"
Original poster
May 30, 2011
1,659
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Cold, Cold,Michigan USA
Never enough dishes had good info on why Montanna PBS is hard to receive for some. I was wondering if anyone has info on why LPBS has such a "funny" signal? On my 81 X 76 cm dish I get regualr PBS at 87S 71Q, Montanna - 88S - 58 to 63 Q, and LPBS - 90S and the quality bounces from 10 to 65. Last time I checked it was holding around 10. I did not think you could get a picture at that low a quality. It jumps to about 25 to 29 last time I checked. Picture is good but does pixel often. Do they have equipement problems or do you think am I just a little out of wack with the dish? (not going to adjust now, raining cats and dogs today.:rain: Hope it does not turn into the worthless white crap.)
 
My recollection is that PBS Montana was among the first of the DVB-S2 challenges many of us had. They somehow send more data with much less signal and everybody was out back tweaking dishes for weeks when the cut over. Check your PM,s I have a dish that will fix this for you.
 
The issue I have is if I hone in on Montana PBS (for best signal) LPB goes in the crapper
and if I move east to hone in on LPB, Montana goes in the crapper

oh well....
 
LPB is one of the most unpredictable signals on AMC-21, at least for me. Last week, using my six foot prime focus WSI 'bargain' dish, Invacom SNF-31 and adjustable prime focus feedhorn, I had an unusually high LPB SQ peaking into the mid 70% range during the daytime hours here in Big Bear City, CA, but I always expect the LPB SQ to drop to the 30 to 50% range by late afternoon here when my weather and that in Baton Rouge is clear of radar cells. When I tried LPB with my WSI 36 X 39 inch WSI9036 dish with a DMS Spitfire Elite '0.1' dB LNBF I barely got any signal on LPB by mid-afternoon. I got nothing for Montana PBS with that setup. Since I got hooked on watching the British and Scottish programming, unique to Montana PBS, I optimized my dish for Montana PBS but doing so always reduced the LPB SQ range. I sacrificed LPB since it had usable video for my Openbox S9 with any factory firmware when SQs dropped into the single digit range. However, I have a new LPB problem. Since I recently installed the 8-08-11 factory firmware I noticed thin lines of horizontal pixelation for all LPB muxes. Whether this is a causal relationship is unclear. I tried adding custom TPs and sample rates as I did for Montana PBS but that trick did not fix the LPB pixelation problem. To further aggravate the situation, that pixelation is not there each evening and is truly random. Some nights, like last night, it was so bad I had to change to another AMC-21 mux. I assumed the LPB pixelation was due to my 8--08-11 firmware and that is still a possibility but I did not run an experiment to verify this assumption. The fact that AMC-21 is essentially due-south for my location and the fact that prime focus dish ground noise (about a 10% effect) peaks at due south does not help my situation but this effect is probably negligible. The recent LPB pixelation is something I have not seen from my six foot dish with older firmware builds for the almost nine months since I installed my six foot dish---until about two weeks ago and shortly after I installed the 8-08-11 firmware. I find I must switch to a non-LPB mux to temporarily eliminate the pixelation, but it soon returns, as it did last night with SQs ranging from 30 to 50% and far above signal detection threshold. There is the possibility that my receiver's SQ thermometer is incapable of showing sudden SQ drops to zero if they are of short duration, but it easily sees the longer SQ drops to zero for Montana PBS. I got so frustrated that I tried to call Randy Ward, Director of Engineering at LPB today and a guy I spoke with many years ago when LPB first moved to AMC-21. He told at that time that my old Coolsat 4000 Pro receiver would not cut it for their DVB-S2 signal. Unfortunately Randy Ward was out of the office when I called today. I eventually spoke today to Ken, an LPB engineer, but this time, unlike with my recent call to Norm at Montana PBS, I did not get the news I expected. Ken told me their signal was free from any technical issues and that the problem must be on my end. That means anyone with a pixelation problem who runs a large dish for AMC-21 and who uses an Openbox S9 should at least consider trying different firmware builds to see if this fixes the problem. Until I revert to an older firmware build and thoroughly test it, I will not know if Ken was accurate in his statement he made to me today. For now, I assume he was accurate to the best of his ability, but that still does not explain why LPB SQ drops significantly by late afternoon and continues to drop until it plateaus by LPB primetime, regardless of the presence of radar cells here and there. And then there is the issue of the orbital figure-8 pattern of all Clarke Belt satellites impacting receiver SQ. It is times like this when I feel I never left my R & D engineering hardware design position and went into 'retirement.'
 
The issue I have is if I hone in on Montana PBS (for best signal) LPB goes in the crapper
and if I move east to hone in on LPB, Montana goes in the crapper

oh well....
Which makes no sense whatsoever. Its all coming from the same satellite. :confused:
 
Maybe they got one of deem dear live oak trees in front of dear uplink?
Just a little more hot sauce and another link of boudin,LOL
Woo Hoo---shoot em' Elizabeth
 
The issue I have is if I hone in on Montana PBS (for best signal) LPB goes in the crapper
and if I move east to hone in on LPB, Montana goes in the crapper

oh well....

Which makes no sense whatsoever. Its all coming from the same satellite. :confused:

Yes, I remember just that, the last time I was out there and wiggled that dish around that is about what would happen Ice.

Interesting info "never enough dishes."
 
Seems like my 30" is too small for both

just tried the 1 meter and both came in fine...
LPB around 60-70
Montana at 71
 
Which makes no sense whatsoever. Its all coming from the same satellite. :confused:

Not all transponders on a satellite will provide the same signal coverage and power levels due to many variables. The main consideration is the broadcaster's contracted power level with the satellite platform owner. This is referred to as a "LINK BUDGET".

Other things that will result in transponder signal differences are the type of modulation and error correction used, transponder bandwidth and saturation, gain and limiter controls on the satellite, adjacent satellite interference, the the uplink station failing to maintain a constant power level in turn relayed by the satellite to the downlink(either mechanical or electronic) such as dish aiming or failure of equipment and/or not monitoring the downlink signal and auto or manual riding the uplink power amplifier levels to maintain the link budget, etc.
 
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The issue I have is if I hone in on Montana PBS (for best signal) LPB goes in the crapper and if I move east to hone in on LPB, Montana goes in the crapper oh well....
As regards to how peaking for Montana PBS reduces LPB SQ, and conversely, it might be easier for you to understand this phenomena if you consider a receiving antenna, be it for invisible Ku-band radiation or for visible light, as both use a parabolic shape for collecting electromagnetic energy. The only differences between those two collection devices are the wavelengths involved. Astronomical telescopes are, in effect, antennas for visible light for objects usually much farther away than a 23,000 mile orbiting geocentric satellite, yet the rules for optical and Ku-band 'antenna' designs are similar. Both designs suffer from wave interference effects. Any amateur astronomer who is also a telescope maker knows it is relatively easy to design and construct an instrument which can collect large amounts of light, a so-called light bucket, as long as planetary image quality and resolution are compromised. Those telescopes typically use cheap glass similar to glass used to make household mirrors which change shape easily for changes in temperature. If high resolution of planetary details are desired, the mirror must be stable over small temperature ranges if used on Earth and it's parabolic surface must be ground to high precision and be able to resolve at least 1/8 wavelength of light. The better the 'figure' of that mirror, the better the image quality and the closer it is to a true parabola, but it can never become a perfect parabola. When you purchase a Ku-band dish intended for home use, you assume it's shape to be parabolic, and indeed it is, just as is the shape of a light bucket or highly figured optical mirror for astronomical use. It is difficult for me to believe a thin inexpensive mass-produced Ku-band dish is a good example of a perfect parabola any more than is a light bucket mirror. My own six panel WSI 'bargain' dish, which came complete with several dents, is a parabolic disaster. I remember in the early days of trying to get that beast to receive anything on AMC-21, I found it critical to bend the LNB support arms so that the distance from my Invacom prime focus feedhorn's scalar ring was equidistant from the top, bottom, left and right edges of my dish. I also found it critical to get the axis of my feedhorn to point to the center of my prime focus dish. Unless I took the time to do that, I found huge differences between the SQs for Montana PBS and for LPB and this was long after UWTV on 123W changed to a TP frequency which did not interfere with Montana PBS. The more time I spent on getting my dish as close to optimal as possible, except for those dents, the closer in magnitude were the Montana PBS and LPB SQs. The so-called main lobe of a receiving antenna is usually shown in a typical sketch to be a smooth curve. That may work for textbook ideal parabolic antennas, but in reality, the main lobe has a ragged polar plot in a real-world Ku-band dish and that pattern gets smoother as the parabolic surface of the dish approaches a perfect parabola. If that dish has multiple panels, the chance for it to have the shape of an ideal parabola is greatly reduced compared to that of a professional quality one piece and thick dish of the same diameter. Refer to the post by stogie5150 in this thread where he reports he uses a six foot Prodelin one piece professional quality dish. I have a dish of that same collecting area but my super thin flexible dish is similar in quality to that of a light bucket telescope mirror. Steve's Prodelin dish is closer to a high quality astronomical telescope mirror with a much closer approximation to a perfect parabola than that of my kludge. As Steve claims no problem with Montana PBS, it is quite possible that when the Montana PBS uplink transmitters fail and cause a solid zero SQ on my Openbox S9 for a short duration, those same drops in signal strength for his dish do not drop below the detection threshold for his receiver. The polar plot of the main lobe of his Ku-band dish has to be much less ragged than the one for my dish of the same size. The true gain of Steve's dish is much higher than my dish's gain due to his dish being a better parabola and hence, he does not suffer from Montana PBS SQ dropouts. I suspect my dish's polar plot is so ragged that it does not see LPB and Montana PBS equally due to the physical separation between those two TPs on the bird, even when my dish is optimized as far as I want to push it. The wavelength for Ku-band energy at 12 GHz is only 2.5 centimeters and that is a significant dimension when compared to the physical separation between TPs on AMC-21. Wave interference in a ragged main lobe can easily cause gain polar plots at the satellite to make gain much higher on one TP versus the one a short distance away due to wave interference effects causing the pickup pattern to have large spatial variations in gain. The bottom line is pretty much what you should expect: you get what you pay for when you buy a Ku-band dish. This is why a one piece and non-flexible 1.2 meter dish of professional quality will always outperform a 1.8 meter six panel dish of grossly inferior quality, especially at Ku-band wavelengths. I bought my cheap six footer because I have problems avoiding 'a good deal' and I needed a challenge, and that is exactly what I got.
 
not to be a dink....but seriously you need to break up your posts in paragraphs. Its too hard to read.

I know why I have issues. I use a 30" dish. The 1 meter dish I have (and getting rid of) works fine for both. My 36" dish worked fine but the motor died on it so I moved it to 85W. I'd rather see sports feeds. I can get PBS locally :)
 
not to be a dink....but seriously you need to break up your posts in paragraphs. Its too hard to read. I know why I have issues. I use a 30" dish. The 1 meter dish I have (and getting rid of) works fine for both. My 36" dish worked fine but the motor died on it so I moved it to 85W. I'd rather see sports feeds. I can get PBS locally :)
Iceberg, I broke my post into paragraphs prior to posting and was shocked to see no paragraphs displayed after I submitted my reply.
 
Iceberg, I broke my post into paragraphs prior to posting and was shocked to see no paragraphs displayed after I submitted my reply.
That has happened to me a number of times. You can edit these paragraph-free posts afterwards, and in my experience the paragraphs will behave after you hit save. It's an annoying glitch. Are you on a slow connection when it does this?
 
I don't know if this is permanent or not, but the LPBS mux is now up on 87W at 11806 H 12475!
 
not to be a dink....but seriously you need to break up your posts in paragraphs. Its too hard to read.

I know why I have issues. I use a 30" dish. The 1 meter dish I have (and getting rid of) works fine for both. My 36" dish worked fine but the motor died on it so I moved it to 85W. I'd rather see sports feeds. I can get PBS locally :)

There is some sort of characteristic of the board that "squeezes" the air out of the posts to save a few bits. If you try to make columns with strategic use of spaces, the whole thing is squished when posted.
Must be what is happening with his paragraphs.
 
It's semi-permanent. It will likely be reconfigured, but AMC-21 does go away in two weeks.

Thanks. It'll be nice to have a reliable signal. Would've been nice to have all the public channels on one satellite though. (I assume you mean that just your signal is going away, not AMC-21 entirely. Too many satellites moving lately.)
 
This is good. Nice strong signal on 87W (with the new satellite) and also unlike the national PBS stations which are on 125W because they need to be CONUS (as in all PBS stations have to grab the feed) LPB is only for Louisiana...87W works good as its near their true south (91W is true south in Baton Rouge)...less issues with rain. After all a dish aimed that far west has more susceptible to rain fade than one aimed pretty much straight up

75 on the Manhattan
71 on azbox here in MN
 
That's typical. About two weeks ago I moved my 60e dish that was pointed at 87 to 85 to catch some feeds (after all, not really a lot to watch on 87) and put an LNB for 87 on a dish where it was about 12 degrees off-centre (which was, surprisingly, good enough for most channels there).

Of course, after reading that LPBS was moving to (and already on) 87, I was out last night (who wants to wait until daylight?) moving the dish back to 87! Fortunately, it is a dish I can access from the ground, no need for a ladder. Of course, even if I had to use a ladder, I still would have been out last night, LOL!

On the 60e, I was getting LPBS at 61-62 on the AZBox last night and it is at 64-65 today. That compares with LPBS on 125 (on a 80cm) at 56-57 last night and 69-70 today. As long as LPBS on 87 doesn't do the nighttime fluctuation seen on 125 (as I don't have as much margin as I did), I should be good to go.

They couldn't have moved to, say 83?
 
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Ku Frequency Issue With Prodelin 1.8m Dish

trying to get RTV on 83W

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