Low HD picture quality, high compression or what???

[vurbano]

The pixelation I think is noticeable on dark areas of the screen, this happens to me on my DVD player too, I'm shooting for a 1080i DVD player in the future anyhow...You don't notice compression artifacts less on MPEG compressed anything on smaller screens though so I see ChetK's point.

by dark do you mean the light green grass? or the red jerseys?

 

[Ferdy]

I have and I do. I had the 6000U watching HDNet, Discovery HD Theater, HBOHD, ShoHD, etc. Every single one of those channels looks a lot better on Dish Network. And it has everything to do with compression. Period, hands down. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Conjuror, don't let all of these Voomer's try to fool you. What you are seeing is, in fact, a poorer image quality than what you got with Dish Network.

Everybody here will tell you to prove it, blah, blah, freakin-blah... They want you to show bit rates, etc. However, neither Dish Network, nor Voom will release Bit Rate data. I have seen numbers that Dish Network has the highest bit rates of D*, V* and E*. I haven't seen D* so I can't comment on that. But I know, fo a fact, that V* doesn't look nearly as good as E*.

I believe that Dish Network won't release their data rate info because they have hit their bandwidth limitation. I also believe that V* has hit their bandwidth limitation, but have an additional reason to not release the data: Because their per channel data rate is lower than any other provider (they forced themselves into this by offering too many HD channels (cinema 10) that most people don't even watch (but it make their numbers look good.)

You can do one of two things:

• Cancel Voom and go back to Dish Network
• Decide that you'd rather have quantity over quality (Voom does offer many more HD channels - even above and beyond their exclusive offerings.) AND wait it out until they upgrade to Mpeg-4 and wm9 encoding/decoding.

The choice is up to you.

By the way, don't let anyone tell you that it's your equipment either. I used the EXACT same cables with the EXACT same setup as with my Dish Network box. I even recalibrated after I got the Voom box. It ain't the equipment. I promise.

Chet, how can you say without question that it's not the STB? The reason that I say this is because I can see very little or no apreciable difference between LPB-HD (my OTA public broadcast local) and the VOOM satellite HD. IMHO, Discovery HD has by far the best pq of all on the satellite and compares about evenly with LPB. After that it's a toss up for the VOOM exclusives, with, of course, the Cinema 10's coming in last. They look about like a 480p DVD.

Since I have no E* service to compare it to, I can't say about those differences (in other words, I can't compare the OTA stuff). Do you receive local OTA HD with the E* STB? To me, this is where the equipment comparison should be made for the STB's, since no satellite signal would come into play.

 

[vurbano]

cinema10 is not a compression problem. Currently it is a conversion problem.

 

[Ferdy]

Couldn't see it

 

[vurbano]

Couldn't see it

what size set do you have?

 

[Ferdy]

40" RPTV Zenith

 

[vurbano]

40" RPTV Zenith

You probably didn't need an HDTV set then.

lmao, apparently if you have less than 50 inches or so and cant see what Conjuror sees then that is the response. Isnt that right conjuror?

 

[Conjuror]

lmao, apparently if you have less than 50 inches or so and cant see what Conjuror sees then that is the response.

You are probably right about that.

 

[barth2k]

why is it that whenever someone makes a complaint about PQ he gets jumped on like he's attacking mom and apple pie? I mean how is that helpful? You're never going to get better service unless you take complaints seriously and try to work them out. Also, realize some people are pickier than others and/or have equipments that show problems more readily.

By the same token, it would help if people didn't make exaggeration like "looks like crap" and "not much beter than SD". That just get others riled up and launch into a flame war.

I have a 65" RPTV. I see stutters. I see pixellation/macro blocking on fast moving stuff like waterskiing on RushHD. I no longer have another service to do direct comparsion and can only go on memory, but it seems to me the PQ on Voom's DiscoveryHD is a bit soft and doesn't have quite the same wow effect. To me, HD, esp the video stuff (as opposed to film transfers), is all about the wow "like looking through a window" factor. I mean, why else do you put yourself through all the hassles and expense? The cable/sat providers, OTOH, will give you whatever PQ you'll settle for, so unless you demand better, you won't get better.

 

[DarrellP]

My screen is 110" and I see lots of video artifacts on Voom that are not there on the same Dish HD channels. Voom is overcompressing the signal, maybe you just need a bigger TV to see it, but Conjuror is right on this one, no WOW factor with Voom.

When I tune from Voom to HDNET, my eyes let out a sigh of relief "Ahhh, now THAT's HD!".

 

[vurbano]

did you watch the game DarrellP?

 

[DarrellP]

No, but I see these effects all over Voom, it's not just on Worldsport. In fact, I never watch Worldsport because I can't stand the picture after watching Soccer on HDNET.

 

[vurbano]

No, but I see these effects all over Voom, it's not just on Worldsport.

So have I. But this game looked very good. I think it is utterly ridiculous to say that if someone with less than a 50 inch display cant see a problem that Conjuror sees then that group of users doesnt need HDTV? What kind of MORONIC statement is that?

I am still waiting for where the pixelation was on the "dark" part of the screen. Was it the white lines, the white ball, the light/lime green soccer field, the white net. I assume it had to be the red jerseys? or the black officials jerseys? It happened , according to the complaintant, on zoomed out shots so all you could see is the field. where was the dark part?

 

[mike123abc]

Dish does not give out its bit rate, but Dish's satellites do give out the information. Dish runs the HDTV transponders at 21,500,000 symbols per second 8PSK, and 2/3 FEC. This translates to 21.5*3*2/3*188/204 or 39.627 mbit/sec. This is shared between 2 HDTV channels (now there is some guide info, encryption, etc overhead) so each one can get 19.3mbit/sec.

VOOM is harder to tell since you do not know what they are putting on the transponders. They are running 22,000,000 symbols/sec, 8PSK, 5/6 FEC or 22*3*5/6*188/204 or 50.68 mbit/sec. The higher bit rate can lead to more rain fade, but it is a trade off. Now if you look at it this way VOOM has 13 transponders (11 licensed, 2 on temp auth from FCC) or a total of 13*50.58 or 658.84 mbit/sec now if you divide that by 39 HDTV channels you end up with 16.89mbit/sec, but of course they have a ton of STDef channels to eat up that bandwidth.

VOOM does have an advantage with Cinema 10, they have these movies well in advance and do not have to real time compression with them, so they can run them at a much lower bit rate and achive the same quality. This allows them to run other HDTV channels at a higher bit rate.

In theory VOOM could do it... Run 26 full bit rate (19.2) HDTV channels, 2 per transponder, then have 12 mbit/transponder free, enough room for a Cine10 (probably running at 7mbit/sec) and 3 STDef channels.

 

[Sean Mota]

Guys,

You cannot compare HDnet on Dish to WorldSport on V*. Sorry but that's the wrong comparison. HDnet happens to be the best looking channel in any DBS or Cable system. When VOOM gets HDnet, you may compare it but for now you are not making a fair comparison. If you want to make comparisons, compare channels common to both providers.

 

[gutter]

To me, HD, esp the video stuff (as opposed to film transfers), is all about the wow "like looking through a window" factor. I mean, why else do you put yourself through all the hassles and expense? The cable/sat providers, OTOH, will give you whatever PQ you'll settle for, so unless you demand better, you won't get better.

You hit it on th head. All the pictures are soft, lack contrast and crush colors. Even my OTA looks poor on PBSHD compared to my previous tuner. Voom is sending a Tech out on Thursday to try and swap boxes. I don't know if that will work. If it is the box, than it is in all boxes. Was not aware that Voom used Digisipher vs MPEG2. I am willing to wait it out but I also wish the Voom would address the issue and tell us that PQ will substantially improve with MPEG4 and WM9.

Seems like this issue will not go away and I am glad that it hasn't.

By the way I am running DVI to a Sammy 43" DLP

 

[ChetK]

why is it that whenever someone makes a complaint about PQ he gets jumped on like he's attacking mom and apple pie? I mean how is that helpful? You're never going to get better service unless you take complaints seriously and try to work them out. Also, realize some people are pickier than others and/or have equipments that show problems more readily.

By the same token, it would help if people didn't make exaggeration like "looks like crap" and "not much beter than SD". That just get others riled up and launch into a flame war.

I have a 65" RPTV. I see stutters. I see pixellation/macro blocking on fast moving stuff like waterskiing on RushHD. I no longer have another service to do direct comparsion and can only go on memory, but it seems to me the PQ on Voom's DiscoveryHD is a bit soft and doesn't have quite the same wow effect. To me, HD, esp the video stuff (as opposed to film transfers), is all about the wow "like looking through a window" factor. I mean, why else do you put yourself through all the hassles and expense? The cable/sat providers, OTOH, will give you whatever PQ you'll settle for, so unless you demand better, you won't get better.

I agree totally! Here's someone that sees the PQ problems.

 

[ChetK]

My screen is 110" and I see lots of video artifacts on Voom that are not there on the same Dish HD channels. Voom is overcompressing the signal, maybe you just need a bigger TV to see it, but Conjuror is right on this one, no WOW factor with Voom.

When I tune from Voom to HDNET, my eyes let out a sigh of relief "Ahhh, now THAT's HD!".

Here's another!

 

[ChetK]

So have I. But this game looked very good. I think it is utterly ridiculous to say that if someone with less than a 50 inch display cant see a problem that Conjuror sees then that group of users doesnt need HDTV? What kind of MORONIC statement is that?

I am still waiting for where the pixelation was on the "dark" part of the screen. Was it the white lines, the white ball, the light/lime green soccer field, the white net. I assume it had to be the red jerseys? or the black officials jerseys? It happened , according to the complaintant, on zoomed out shots so all you could see is the field. where was the dark part?

V., We're not saying that Voom is really really bad, but if you have seen the Dish Network HD (that looks like you're looking through a window at reality) you'd see that Voom doesn't come close to matching the E* quality.

Also, larger screens are more likely to show the flaws. It's a lot easier to see an ant if you magify it's size too.

The compression artifacts that they're talking about during the soccer game of Voom is usually around each of the players in the green grass. I know because I've seen it.

 

[ChetK]

Guys,

You cannot compare HDnet on Dish to WorldSport on V*. Sorry but that's the wrong comparison. HDnet happens to be the best looking channel in any DBS or Cable system. When VOOM gets HDnet, you may compare it but for now you are not making a fair comparison. If you want to make comparisons, compare channels common to both providers.

Sean, you're right about the HDNet comparison. You can't compare it. Here's why: Mark Cuban demands that HDNet is broadcast at a certain bit rate. It's a very high bit rate too. Therefore, his programming ALWAYS looks great! This high bit rate is probably another reason that it won't be on Voom any time soon. Sure, you could argue that Mark uses the best HD equipment, but I'd be willing to bet that if Voom gave Worldsport the same amount of bits as every HDNet provider must give HDNet, it would look just as good (maybe not as good as HDNet since we're using a Motorola decoder. )