Local Broadcasts over FTA?

[123tim]

Is it possible to receive local broadcasts (such as the ones that Direct tv and the Dish Network can provide) on an FTA setup? I've never really understood how local broadcast can be directed to a specific area with a satellite transmission. Could someone explain how this would work?
Thanks.

 

[PSB]

Those are Spot Beams...

"Spot Beam
A spot beam is a satellite transmission that is focused on a specific area within the footprint of the satellite. To increase the capacity of channels they can provide. Both DISH Network and DirecTV started using spot beams in 2002. By using spot beams both providers can use the same frequencies in several markets simultaneously. The use of spot beams has allowed satellite TV providers to meet must carry requirements set fore by the FCC. Spot beams would be the reason you could receive your local networks at home but not when you travel more then a few hundred miles from home."



"What is a Spot Beam?
A spot beam is a often used term now, and it affects what local stations you can possibly receive. The normal satellites send out a signal pretty indiscriminately. It simply is a microwave transmitter beaming data across the US. The spot beam is the same thing, but it points at a reflector that has a narrower focus. The upshot of this is that depending on where you are in the country, you won't see the beams pointing away from you. That is, the satellite sends a beam similar to a flashlight beam at one spot of the country. A 100-200 mile wide spot.

Why use spot beams? Because there's only a limited amount of space up there. They can't broadcast anything they want, the FCC would kill them. They only have so much bandwidth/frequency space. To make the most use out of it all, they rebroadcast on the same frequencies in different spots. This is *perfect* for sending local channels. So on frequency "3" they might send locals to Birmingham, Atlanta, and Denver and so forth. All on that same frequency. This reuse can be done because they're not sending Denver's channels to Atlanta (it would be a waste since they can't legally sell them there anyway). Because each spot on the ground only sees what's being sent to them, the other spots using the same frequency doesn't get interfered with by the other spots. Any spot map you look at will have overlapping spots. Any spots that overlap must use two different frequencies, but any spots that don't overlap can use the same frequencies."

So unless they are In The Clear there is no way to get them FTA, there are still a few Networks upthere FTA!

 

[123tim]

I must say that I'm pretty amazed at this. It's amazing that a satellite the size of a truck (are they that big?) can have the capacity to make so many dedicated transmissions.

Thanks Pete!

 

[mbarnes]

Picking up your locals on FTA would also depend on if they are up there. Your local stations must "backhaul" their signal to the teleport for the DBS provider somehow. Our local stations in The Valley are all microwaved to one central location where they are fed into fiber optic cable and sent to the teleport digitally. Other areas may backhaul via satellite. These backhauls may be on C or Ku. If listed at all, they would likely be listed somewhere as feeds. They may or may not use encryption, and may use some type of oddball encoding. It is very likely they are NOT analog. If you go by their studios, look for uplink dishes and try to get a bearing on them, then you might find which satellite they are aiming at and do a blind scan. Who knows, you might just get lucky! You might also check the web for local chapters of the Society of Broadcast Engineers and check out their meetings. Often, these are held in a public place like a restaurant. Maybe you can get in, buy lunch for someone and get some info.

 

[123tim]

I hope that I'm not diverging into something that is turning away from an FTA question, but why would local broadcasters want to encrypt their transmissions? It seems that they (local broadcasters) would want as many people as possible to be able to receive the transmissions. The broadcast are transmitted over terrestrial transmissions without a charge. I guess that they need a lot more money for a satellite uplink and they need more than advertisements would pay?

 

[mbarnes]

I must say that I'm pretty amazed at this. It's amazing that a satellite the size of a truck (are they that big?) can have the capacity to make so many dedicated transmissions.

Thanks Pete!

A satellite transponder is typically about the size of a shoebox, newer ones a lot smaller. There are normally 48 transponders on a dual band bird. (maybe some spares) The rest is power management and attitude control and LOTS of antennas. Look at all the features in your cell phone. Just a few years ago, it would have taken a device the size of a Volkswagen to do all that!

 

[123tim]

Thanks Michael.

 

[mbarnes]

I hope that I'm not diverging into something that is turning away from an FTA question, but why would local broadcasters want to encrypt their transmissions? It seems that they (local broadcasters) would want as many people as possible to be able to receive the transmissions. The broadcast are transmitted over terrestrial transmissions without a charge. I guess that they need a lot more money for a satellite uplink and they need more than advertisements would pay?

There could be any number of reasons for encryption. Some programs or advertisers only approve an outlet for a certain market. The broadcaster must take whatever measures necessary to limit coverage to their market. This is one reason why some radio stations which stream on the Internet must block out some programming from their Internet feed. Program providers often impose "exclusivity rights" to guarantee a certain outlet they will be the only source for that program in a given market. Backhauls or feeds which typically do not use spotbeam type technology, then must be encrypted to prevent the programming from being received outside the market. Seems awful picky at times, but then broadcasting is a strange world.

Then, some broadcasters just don't want their programming anywhere but local. The TV stations down here did their best to fight waivers for network reception on DBS. To my knowledge, no waiver for networks ever received approval from any of our local TV stations. Only when spotbeam capability was provided to our area did they consider putting the local channels on DBS.

Like I said, strange world.

 

[Katrinasucks]

OK, super rookie quesiton

>So on frequency "3" they might send locals to Birmingham, Atlanta, and Denver and so forth.

So.... If I have locals in Birmingham and I hop in my RV and drive my receiver to Denver, I'd get Denver locals?

Not that I'll ever do this, I'm just a curious kinda guy. ;-)

 

[Mr Tony]

>So on frequency "3" they might send locals to Birmingham, Atlanta, and Denver and so forth.

So.... If I have locals in Birmingham and I hop in my RV and drive my receiver to Denver, I'd get Denver locals?

Not that I'll ever do this, I'm just a curious kinda guy. ;-)

no because the receiver is set up for Birmingham locals.

 

[Pepper]

To clarify what Iceberg said, you get whatever you subscribed to. If some channels are on a spotbeam, and you move the antenna out of that spotbeam into an area that receives a different (or no) spotbeam, you get a "lost signal" error for those channels.

 

[mdovell]

There could be any number of reasons for encryption. Some programs or advertisers only approve an outlet for a certain market. The broadcaster must take whatever measures necessary to limit coverage to their market. This is one reason why some radio stations which stream on the Internet must block out some programming from their Internet feed. Program providers often impose "exclusivity rights" to guarantee a certain outlet they will be the only source for that program in a given market.

Then, some broadcasters just don't want their programming anywhere but local. The TV stations down here did their best to fight waivers for network reception on DBS. To my knowledge, no waiver for networks ever received approval from any of our local TV stations. Only when spotbeam capability was provided to our area did they consider putting the local channels on DBS.

Like I said, strange world.

The whole flag thing for the cable co's back in the day said they could operate but must carry local stations...that made sense back then but now it doesn't really. Case in point for OTA stations I get all boston related network affliates...and rhode island ones. With the exception of different local news it's 99% the same. It's like having duplicate stations and pretty meaningless to require it moreso.

I only mension this because in my state the cable co's managed to convince I think the state to start taxing dbs providers.....the money going to local cable access tv providers...I could see this if it was the uontv material but why should satellite users pay for programming they'd never see?

 

[ken2400]

Any idea how they can use the same transponder for differnt spot beams?

Those are Spot Beams...

"Spot Beam
A spot beam is a satellite transmission that is focused on a specific area within the footprint of the satellite. To increase the capacity of channels they can provide. Both DISH Network and DirecTV started using spot beams in 2002. By using spot beams both providers can use the same frequencies in several markets simultaneously. The use of spot beams has allowed satellite TV providers to meet must carry requirements set fore by the FCC. Spot beams would be the reason you could receive your local networks at home but not when you travel more then a few hundred miles from home."



"What is a Spot Beam?
A spot beam is a often used term now, and it affects what local stations you can possibly receive. The normal satellites send out a signal pretty indiscriminately. It simply is a microwave transmitter beaming data across the US. The spot beam is the same thing, but it points at a reflector that has a narrower focus. The upshot of this is that depending on where you are in the country, you won't see the beams pointing away from you. That is, the satellite sends a beam similar to a flashlight beam at one spot of the country. A 100-200 mile wide spot.

Why use spot beams? Because there's only a limited amount of space up there. They can't broadcast anything they want, the FCC would kill them. They only have so much bandwidth/frequency space. To make the most use out of it all, they rebroadcast on the same frequencies in different spots. This is *perfect* for sending local channels. So on frequency "3" they might send locals to Birmingham, Atlanta, and Denver and so forth. All on that same frequency. This reuse can be done because they're not sending Denver's channels to Atlanta (it would be a waste since they can't legally sell them there anyway). Because each spot on the ground only sees what's being sent to them, the other spots using the same frequency doesn't get interfered with by the other spots. Any spot map you look at will have overlapping spots. Any spots that overlap must use two different frequencies, but any spots that don't overlap can use the same frequencies."

So unless they are In The Clear there is no way to get them FTA, there are still a few Networks upthere FTA!

 

[Mr Tony]

Any idea how they can use the same transponder for differnt spot beams?

they reuse the frequencies on the satellite and aim it at a specific area. They can't cross areas so thats why on 119 I cant see any spot beams in MN...nearest one is KC

 

[mbarnes]

Any idea how they can use the same transponder for differnt spot beams?

Well, technically, they don't. They can have several transponders in the same frequency range, but connected to different directional antennas. They can also have multiple satellites in one orbital slot. Just like there can be a TV station on channel 6 in Detroit and another one in Memphis. Your receiver always picks up channel 6, but will only actually receive the station it is pointed at and within range of. Same thing with the satellite. Two transponders and two antennas, one pointed at Seattle and one pointed at Peoria. Same frequencies, different transmitters, different programming. You get what is pointed your way, and you have permission to receive.

 

[djnrg787]

I live in the tampa area and i went to a bucs game once and there is a news tv station right next to the stadium how convienient. but anyway they have like 6 big c band dishes out front and i could swear when i went in the game they were facing straight up and when i left they were down to the southern sky more. i also noticed a sports bar by my house that has a c band dish and its practically straight up what are they aiming at something local?

 

[PSB]

Most C-Band dish are prime focus, so aim directly at the satellite. Where as off-set dish have a MUCH lower elevation, maybe thats it. You are pretty close to the equator (compared with here in MN.) where dish point straight up.

 

[djnrg787]

i am pretty close but even the dish net and directv dishes dont point that high i mean the 119 is right over my roof line from 10 feet back.

 

[PSB]

DirecTV and Dishnotwork use off set dish, they do not point directly at the satellites.

http://www.satsig.net/22-deg-offset-dish.htm

Down there in FL. the highest elevations to the satellites is around 60 deg. All the satellites are on the Clarke Belt so a dish pointing stright up in FL. is pointing at nothing....

 

[djnrg787]

how about the news dishes is it possible they arent geostationary and they can track the sats moving around. im sure the sports bar dish isnt at anything anyway they have directv.