Ladders and Installing Dish?

[Jimbo]

It would still have to go inside because when the dishes on the pole the top of the dish neck slightly covers the top of the pole around the rim

Then how do you place one on a pole that isn't at the top ?
I'm sure you don't do that when placing a new pole, but if your not placing a new pole ....

 

[Jimbo]

If they were they would be awfully expensive...

I put in Galvanized at my place, 16' worth in my case ... obviously this wouldn't be done at a typical subs house.

Fwiw, it's 3 ft deep (frost line) concreted and capped at the top, bolt thru flattened bottom.

If I ever have a tech out they love it as it goes to a mostly Flat roof line.

 

[reubenray]

Could y'all discuss/argue pole mounts somewhere else!! My questions were concerning ladders.

 

[Jimbo]

Could y'all discuss/argue pole mounts somewhere else!! My questions were concerning ladders.

Sorry, this is what happens once the original question is answered a lot of times.

You asked about using extension ladders, yes, they use them all the time, they are no longer allowed to leave the ladder to do any work.
They normally will put a dish on the roof in an area that is not actually in a living area whenever possible.

You Do have a choice where it goes as long as there is good LOS, the Tech should walk around the property with you to discuss this when he does the original survey.

 

[HipKat]

Then how do you place one on a pole that isn't at the top ?
I'm sure you don't do that when placing a new pole, but if your not placing a new pole ....

I don't understand the question, but I'll take a pic of the top of a mast on a temp mount I have set up outside so you can see what I mean

 

[NYDutch]

I don't understand the question, but I'll take a pic of the top of a mast on a temp mount I have set up outside so you can see what I mean

I'm not clear on it either, but the only time I've mounted a dish part way up a pipe was on a commercial building where I modified a standard wall/roof mount to accept a couple of large 'U' bolts and clamped it to a 3" iron drain pipe.

 

[HipKat]

I'm not clear on it either, but the only time I've mounted a dish part way up a pipe was on a commercial building where I modified a standard wall/roof mount to accept a couple of large 'U' bolts and clamped it to a 3" iron drain pipe.

I use those U-Bolts for mounting on Antenna Towers that a lot of people still have at their houses around here when they balk at roof mounts

 

[newbie2021]

Dish just paid a restoration company to repair my roof and remove and replace attic insulation and ceiling in two rooms of my house..
the roof mounted dish was in place for about 5 yrs and and water leaked through the bolt holes. It was not anchored into a roof joist, just the asphalt shingles and plywood. Tech went up 3 stories on a ladder, in the rain, to verify the leak and removed the dish so the roof could be repaired. Then relocated the dish to the side of my deck - much easier to remove the snow.

They also upgraded all my equip at no charge - hopper 3 and 3 wireless joeys.

 

[newbie2021]

on the deck

 

[ancient]

Generally I'm a pretty nice, easy going guy but I get really aggravated when somebody acts like they know my job better than I do. First of all nobody put caps on poles. Maybe some customers do but technicians do not do that because we don't have caps to put on the poles.

Secondly the only way to mount a dish to an old C-band pole is with a Dish adapter and nobody has the cap type that go over the pole. Maybe some retailers but not dish techs and not people who get their equipment from Dish Network, specifically subcontractors and rsps. And those adapters are not authorized. The protocol is to put in a new Pole.

But of course I've seen bad work by other technicians. I've been doing this for 8 years, have worked in multiple markets and the company I work for now has about 200 technicians currently working. We absolutely have some monkeys working here that do garbage work. But you're a unicorn because you are not the typical customer. Typical customers don't do their own installs, they don't dig their own trenches, and to be honest with you I would say 85% of my customers these days are older than I am and I'm going to be 57 this year. They are not doing the things that you are talking about. It just doesn't happen. Most of the insinuations that you have made, referred to retailers or subcontractors in other industries.

For subcontractors and regional service providers, or rsp's, dish holds those companies to close to a dozen different metrics. One of them is a 60-day return to a job for any type of repair. That company gets back charged for the entire job so it's in the company's best interest to make sure that those jobs are not only done correctly what are held to a higher standard and any company worth it salt has managers that go out and do quality control inspections on random jobs, specifically targeting technicians who historically do bad work.

Another one is a threshold for pole mounts and when a company crosses that threshold they get fined by Dish Network so technicians are taught to use pole mounts as an absolute last resort.

I was not suggesting trying to mount a DN dish on a C-band pole, just saying that I have both C-band and ku-band dishes on metal poles on my property today and was trying to share my experience with those. You've been defending roof mounts and trying to use any reasoning you can to make pole mounts sound bad, but in my experience that's not the case, and from the way you talk about them snapping off I suspect that you are located somewhere where there is a lot of salt water or other corrosive particulates in the air. Or that people are embedding those poles in concrete without leaving the bottom in dirt or sand or gravel so the water has a way to drain out. You may get really aggravated when somebody acts like they know your job better than you do, but as a homeowner I get really aggravated when someone wants to drill holes into my home that I know don't need to be there.

I do realize that with some kinds of DN dishes it would be impossible to cap the pole, but then again that really shouldn't be a problem if the water can drain out of the bottom of the pole. Galvanized poles are galvanized inside and out, so if they aren't rusting away on the outside they shouldn't be on the inside either, and so far none of my galvanized poles have rust on them. But then again I'm probably a good thousand miles (at least) from the nearest salt water.

I am sorry that Dish Network fines you for doing the best type of mount, which is the one that has zero potential for damaging the customer's roof, but as a customer that would not be my problem. I am sorry but I honestly don't believe you can make a truly watertight roof mount when you are attaching something that offers as much wind resistance as a dish does. Sure, you won't get that 60-day callback because it will probably allow little or no water to seep in for the first 60 days, but that's my point - by the time the damage is evident the installer that did the installation is long gone,and Dish certainly isn't going to send anyone else out to fix the roof after that period of time. And as I said, YOU may be an excellent installer, but as a customer how do I know I'm not getting one of those monkeys that does garbage work? That is the issue the customer has, they have no idea if they are getting a true professional or someone who figures that it's not their house and they won't have to deal with any damage months or years down the road, so why care?

Perhaps the reason I do so much of that kind of work myself is that I just don't trust contractors - maybe it is the area I live in but it seems that for every one that does great work, there are about a half dozen that do crap work and about half of them will charge much more than the guy that does good work. The problem is finding the guy that does the good work! And for most of my life I have been somewhat of a perfectionist, so I get REALLY annoyed by even minor flaws in the work. You'd probably hate doing an install for me, but then I wouldn't ask you to. I have to admit that I kind of stumbled into this thread by accident and didn't realize at first that we were talking about Dish Network dishes, but I have installed a few of those in the past on metal poles for different family members, using the same methods I have used when installing Ku dishes in my yard, and they all worked fine for as long as the person in question kept their Dish service. But none of them have Dish anymore, they are all using Rokus and streaming services now. Meanwhile I am still using my C-band and ku-band dishes and although I think some of the RG-6 cables are wearing out, none of the poles have so far.

Anyway I don't want to argue with you, and I do understand that because Dish dings you for pole mounts you don't want to do them because it can impact your bottom line. So I will just leave it at that. People are free to decide what kind of installation they want, but to me anyone who lives in a place where you get significant amounts of snow really should demand a pole mount because it is a whole lot easier to sweep the snow off a dish that's maybe 6 feet off the ground as opposed to one that's up on a roof.

EDIT: Just read newbie2021's post, which really kind of makes my point for me. I think he was very lucky to get Dish to fix the problem, and that probably only happened because they wanted to retain him as a customer!

 

[brad1138]

I have never understood why people choose to cause destruction to their homes by installing a satellite dish on the roof, except in cases where it is absolutely necessary to clear the tree line or some other nearby obstruction, or if you live in the middle of a desert where it hardly ever rains and there is very little wind. In cases where you have a clear view of the sky a galvanized metal pole mount (with the galvanized metal pole set in concrete in the ground) is much better. The reason is that no matter how you anchor the dish to the roof, the dish is like a miniature sail and the force of the wind will try to pull it away from the roof, and eventually it will make enough of a crack that water is allowed to enter. The water will seep into the crack and start to rot the wood, which will only further hasten the damage and eventually the need to replace that section of the roof. So why do installers do roof mounts? Because it's not their house and they just don't care, but also because by the time the damage becomes apparent to the homeowner they will most likely be long gone, either retired or in some other line of work.

Now when you talk eave mounts, those are slightly better because it is easier to replace a section of the eaves then a section of the roof, and a leak in the eaves will generally only rot the eave itself and not penetrate into the house. But there are two ways to install an eave mount, one is on a side of the house where there is a peak in the roof and the other is on the front or back of a typical ranch-style house where you are below the slope of the roof. Once again if you live where it seldom rains or snows it doesn't matter. But if you get snow or ice on the roof then do you really want that snow or ice coming down and pushing against or crashing into your dish mount? Only if you enjoy having to have the dish repositioned every so often! And rain running down off the roof, hitting the mount and getting redirected back toward the house doesn't seem like such a great idea either.

And if you do get significant snow then having a dish on a pole in the yard makes it much easier to sweep off the snow after a heavy snowfall that could interfere with the signal. But maybe you enjoy climbing up on an icy roof in subzero temperatures because falling off the roof is such fun???

To me it's always been a no-brainer to put the dish on a pole (typically a 10-foot piece of galvanized electrical conduit from one of the big box home improvement stores) and use a bag or two of concrete to anchor it in the ground. Before setting it in the concrete I'd give the part of the pipe that will be sunk in the concrete a couple good whacks with a sledge hammer to slightly deform it so it won't turn in the concrete, though I have never seen a pole actually turn after the concrete has set even if you fail to do that - there are plenty of people who will tell you it could happen and would even have you weld scrap steel onto the pole so it can't turn in the concrete but I have never found that to be necessary, then again I don't live in a place that gets hurricanes. But if you don't have a welder, just deform a part of the pipe that will be set in the concrete a little bit so it is not perfectly round and that should take care of that problem. And remember that the pipe has to be perfectly vertical so use a level on three or four sides to make cure that it is right after pouring the concrete and again before the concrete cures. I'd also think about how the wire is going to get to the dish - if buried underground you may want a piece of pipe or conduit temporarily taped to the pole that starts above the concrete line and bends out to go into the dirt (where it won't be completely covered by concrete) so you can run the wire right up next to the pole and avoid lawnmower outages.

Of course Dish installers will NEVER offer to do this because it means they have to make two trips to complete the installation, one to set the pole and pour the concrete, and then after the concrete cures they have to come back and install the dish. But if you absolutely insist, some will do it, others won't. You of course always have the option to put up a pole yourself (IF you know how to do it correctly and use the correct size pipe) before the installer gets there, but if you do that remember that the cable from the dish to the house has to be grounded to the house ground so the closer you can get to the home's electric meter and ground rod (while still having a clear view of the satellites) the better.

Just as a disclaimer, I have never worked for Dish or been a Dish installer, but I have helped people relocate their dishes after a move. And the pole mounts always worked great!

Where to start...
A properly installed roof mount (with tar-not silicone) will generally not leak.

A pole mount is free only if it is necessary due to line of sight, we charge $100 for a "cosmetic" pole mount. (and that does not include trenching cable)

You do not need expensive galvanized electrical conduit. Standard fence post with 1 5/8" OD is the proper poll for Dish network, 2" OD for DTV. They cost around $10-$20. The dishes were originally engineered to use those pipes. 7 or 8 foot pipe is plenty long, dig hole usually 2+ ft deep, leave 5+ feet above ground. 1 bag of cement is generally enough. To keep it from rotating, some like to smash the bottom end with hammer, I usually drill a 1/4 hole and put bolt through it.

Pole mounts do not need 2 trips, fast set concrete sets in under 30 minutes.

It is easier to align when the post is plumb, but it does not need to be perfect.

 

[ty1273]

I have never understood why people choose to cause destruction to their homes by installing a satellite dish on the roof, except in cases where it is absolutely necessary to clear the tree line or some other nearby obstruction, or if you live in the middle of a desert where it hardly ever rains and there is very little wind. In cases where you have a clear view of the sky a galvanized metal pole mount (with the galvanized metal pole set in concrete in the ground) is much better. The reason is that no matter how you anchor the dish to the roof, the dish is like a miniature sail and the force of the wind will try to pull it away from the roof, and eventually it will make enough of a crack that water is allowed to enter. The water will seep into the crack and start to rot the wood, which will only further hasten the damage and eventually the need to replace that section of the roof. So why do installers do roof mounts? Because it's not their house and they just don't care, but also because by the time the damage becomes apparent to the homeowner they will most likely be long gone, either retired or in some other line of work.

Now when you talk eave mounts, those are slightly better because it is easier to replace a section of the eaves then a section of the roof, and a leak in the eaves will generally only rot the eave itself and not penetrate into the house. But there are two ways to install an eave mount, one is on a side of the house where there is a peak in the roof and the other is on the front or back of a typical ranch-style house where you are below the slope of the roof. Once again if you live where it seldom rains or snows it doesn't matter. But if you get snow or ice on the roof then do you really want that snow or ice coming down and pushing against or crashing into your dish mount? Only if you enjoy having to have the dish repositioned every so often! And rain running down off the roof, hitting the mount and getting redirected back toward the house doesn't seem like such a great idea either.

And if you do get significant snow then having a dish on a pole in the yard makes it much easier to sweep off the snow after a heavy snowfall that could interfere with the signal. But maybe you enjoy climbing up on an icy roof in subzero temperatures because falling off the roof is such fun???

To me it's always been a no-brainer to put the dish on a pole (typically a 10-foot piece of galvanized electrical conduit from one of the big box home improvement stores) and use a bag or two of concrete to anchor it in the ground. Before setting it in the concrete I'd give the part of the pipe that will be sunk in the concrete a couple good whacks with a sledge hammer to slightly deform it so it won't turn in the concrete, though I have never seen a pole actually turn after the concrete has set even if you fail to do that - there are plenty of people who will tell you it could happen and would even have you weld scrap steel onto the pole so it can't turn in the concrete but I have never found that to be necessary, then again I don't live in a place that gets hurricanes. But if you don't have a welder, just deform a part of the pipe that will be set in the concrete a little bit so it is not perfectly round and that should take care of that problem. And remember that the pipe has to be perfectly vertical so use a level on three or four sides to make cure that it is right after pouring the concrete and again before the concrete cures. I'd also think about how the wire is going to get to the dish - if buried underground you may want a piece of pipe or conduit temporarily taped to the pole that starts above the concrete line and bends out to go into the dirt (where it won't be completely covered by concrete) so you can run the wire right up next to the pole and avoid lawnmower outages.

Of course Dish installers will NEVER offer to do this because it means they have to make two trips to complete the installation, one to set the pole and pour the concrete, and then after the concrete cures they have to come back and install the dish. But if you absolutely insist, some will do it, others won't. You of course always have the option to put up a pole yourself (IF you know how to do it correctly and use the correct size pipe) before the installer gets there, but if you do that remember that the cable from the dish to the house has to be grounded to the house ground so the closer you can get to the home's electric meter and ground rod (while still having a clear view of the satellites) the better.

Just as a disclaimer, I have never worked for Dish or been a Dish installer, but I have helped people relocate their dishes after a move. And the pole mounts always worked great!

Why don’t you worry about your own setup rather than criticizing another person’s install. Where an installer places a dish on an install that is not yours is none of your busines.

 

[HipKat]

It is easier to align when the post is plumb, but it does not need to be perfect.

And here is where you lost me....

 

[brad1138]

And here is where you lost me....

A line from the post I was responding to. " And remember that the pipe has to be perfectly vertical". I said it didn't need to be perfect, I am sometimes off by a few degrees, not a big deal.

 

[ancient]

Where to start...
A properly installed roof mount (with tar-not silicone) will generally not leak.

Not when you install it, and maybe not for a few years. But it is like saying a bad electrical job will never catch fire just because it didn't catch fire in the week after it was installed.

A pole mount is free only if it is necessary due to line of sight, we charge $100 for a "cosmetic" pole mount. (and that does not include trenching cable)

Well that's a real shame.

You do not need expensive galvanized electrical conduit. Standard fence post with 1 5/8" OD is the proper poll for Dish network, 2" OD for DTV. They cost around $10-$20. The dishes were originally engineered to use those pipes. 7 or 8 foot pipe is plenty long, dig hole usually 2+ ft deep, leave 5+ feet above ground. 1 bag of cement is generally enough. To keep it from rotating, some like to smash the bottom end with hammer, I usually drill a 1/4 hole and put bolt through it.

When you say "standard fence post" I sure hope you are not talking about wood, because wood warps and twists. A relative had his dishes mounted on a wood pole (he'd had DN so long he had discrete dishes for each satellite) and immediately regretted it when he found out he had to tweak the alignment two or three times a year to offset the wood warping. As for electrical conduit, I only suggested that because at the time I was helping with these it was the cheapest thing we could get that was galvanized, and I am a big believer in using galvanized pipe because in normal climates (not near the ocean or a body of salt water) it lasts a very long time without rusting. If you can get the right size galvanized pipe in the plumbing section or elsewhere and it's less expensive there is no reason not to go for it. You have talked about poles rusting and my point is that in a normal non-oceanic climate where the bottom of the pole has drainage (it's not embedded in the concrete) OR the top of the pole is capped where that is possible, it doesn't rust, at least not for a very long time. I agree with everything else you have said, although I know some would argue about the one bag of cement being sufficient. Generally I used two or three but that was on poles for my own personal use and I do have a tendency to over-engineer things.

Pole mounts do not need 2 trips, fast set concrete sets in under 30 minutes.

It is easier to align when the post is plumb, but it does not need to be perfect.

Well I have always heard that satellite poles need to be plumb, but of course if the dish is non-moveable as is the case with most DN dishes then I suppose you may be correct, although you still would not want it off by a whole lot because it would affect the skew of the LNB (which as far as I know is fixed and not adjustable on a DN dish, at least I have never heard of one having adjustable skew).

 

[ancient]

Why don’t you worry about your own setup rather than criticizing another person’s install. Where an installer places a dish on an install that is not yours is none of your busines.

Because people come into these forums wanting to learn. If people don't want to be critiqued then perhaps they should refrain from posting. I personally think this has been a healthy and enlightening discussion. If we were talking about an individual potentially damaging their own home then I would say sure, that's nobody's business but theirs, however if they then posted what they did in a forum as an example of how others should do an install, then it becomes fair game for a critique. I just know that attaching stuff to a roof can give an entrance point to water that over time can rot the roof and/or cause leaks. I didn't like it in the old days when installers were doing roof mount TV antennas, but at least they did not have a large surface area that catches the wind. But it is my opinion that installers should not be putting dishes on people's roofs if that can be avoided, particularly in Northern climates because then you also have ice and snow to deal with, and it is a lot harder to sweep snow off a dish if it is up on a roof.

That said there probably are situations where a roof mount is the best option, such as when the extra height will clear the tree line, or if you live in a place where there is little wind and it almost never rains. I also suppose it is possible to anchor a dish to a roof in such a way that it will never leak for the lifetime of the home, but I've seen too many installs that were not done that way and if you are a homeowner it is a real crap shoot as to what kind of installer you are going to get. With a pole mount, there is zero chance of damage to your roof, it is easy to clean the snow off in the winter, if you need your roof repaired or re-shingled it doesn't affect the dish, and unless you are trying to clear an obstruction there is no signal strength advantage to having the dish up high. On the other hand, if you have kids that like to hang onto things, or moose that like to come into your yard to sharpen their antlers on anything they can find, then maybe a roof mount is the best option. All I am saying is people should consider the pros and cons and make an informed decision (but then people should do that for a lot of things, but often they don't).

 

[ancient]

A line from the post I was responding to. " And remember that the pipe has to be perfectly vertical". I said it didn't need to be perfect, I am sometimes off by a few degrees, not a big deal.

Yeah I'll have to concede that point when we are talking about fixed dishes that never move, because as long as the skew isn't too badly off you can make up for the inaccuracy by adjusting the dish. This is not the case for C-band or Ku-band dishes that are moveable, because in that case if the pole is not perfectly straight then they won't track the satellite arc properly.

 

[brad1138]

Not when you install it, and maybe not for a few years. But it is like saying a bad electrical job will never catch fire just because it didn't catch fire in the week after it was installed.

We have been installing for over 20 years, 1000s of Dishes mounted to roofs personally. Very few if any issues. My dish has been on my roof for over 12 years now, has not leaked and is still as solid as the day I mounted it. And I live in the rainy PNW.

Well that's a real shame.

If someone wants me to dig a hole in the very rocky earth around here, carry around bags of concrete etc, just because "they don't like it" on their roof, they are lucky it is only $100. If there were significant roof leakage issues, Dish/DTV would have been sued in a class action case by now. My dish has been on my roof for over 12 years, has not leaked and is still as solid as the day I mounted it. And I live in the rainy PNW. The satellite industry hasn't upped their labor rate in 20 years, still $69/hr. $100 is cheap these days.

When you say "standard fence post" I sure hope you are not talking about wood, because wood warps and twists. A relative had his dishes mounted on a wood pole (he'd had DN so long he had discrete dishes for each satellite) and immediately regretted it when he found out he had to tweak the alignment two or three times a year to offset the wood warping. As for electrical conduit, I only suggested that because at the time I was helping with these it was the cheapest thing we could get that was galvanized, and I am a big believer in using galvanized pipe because in normal climates (not near the ocean or a body of salt water) it lasts a very long time without rusting. If you can get the right size galvanized pipe in the plumbing section or elsewhere and it's less expensive there is no reason not to go for it. You have talked about poles rusting and my point is that in a normal non-oceanic climate where the bottom of the pole has drainage (it's not embedded in the concrete) OR the top of the pole is capped where that is possible, it doesn't rust, at least not for a very long time. I agree with everything else you have said, although I know some would argue about the one bag of cement being sufficient. Generally I used two or three but that was on poles for my own personal use and I do have a tendency to over-engineer things.

A wooden post with 1 5/8 outside diameter??? I don't think such a thing exists, but of course not.

Standard chain link fence posts come in 1 5/8" OD and 2" OD. Readily available at Home Depot or Lowes etc...

Everbilt 1-5/8 in. Dia x 6 ft. 16-Gauge Galvanized Steel Chain Link Fence Line Post 328921DPTSEB - The Home Depot

Improve a style and protection to your chain link fence with the help of this extraordinarily designed Everbilt 11-gauge 15/15/ Galvanized Steel Line Fence Post.

www.homedepot.com

I use 1 50 lb bag of quickset, unless the hole gets too big for some reason (usually large rocks in soil). Even for the internet dishes with 2" pipe and a much heavier/bigger dish. Plenty over the 20+ years have said you "need" more than that, but I have never had a dish on a pole mount move and I have done 100s.

Well I have always heard that satellite poles need to be plumb, but of course if the dish is non-moveable as is the case with most DN dishes then I suppose you may be correct, although you still would not want it off by a whole lot because it would affect the skew of the LNB (which as far as I know is fixed and not adjustable on a DN dish, at least I have never heard of one having adjustable skew).

The Skew is adjustable on every Dish dish, and has been for over 20 years. DTV as well.

 

[solarvic]

For my orby dish I used a piece of 2 inch dia chainlink fence pipe from lowes. Took out the bolt on the top of the dish so I could slide it down the pipe leaving enough pipe sticking out out of the dish to put a cover on the top of the pipe. Put a radiator clamp under the bottom of the dish pipe mount so the dish wouldn,t slide down the pipe any farther. Then you aim the dish just like before. I bought my caps either from ebay or amazon as I needed new caps on front wheels wheels on my zero turn lawn mower.

 

[HipKat]

If there were significant roof leakage issues, Dish/DTV would have been sued in a class action case by now.

This is what I tell people who worry about leakage. Dish puts up maybe 100,000 new dishes a year, if not more. Add in the number DTV setup. If they leaked so easily, we wouldn't be putting them on roofs anymore