Joey 4's Lose Streaming & MOCA Internet, but Dish programming works fine

[GraniteStateColin]

I have a problem that I have been troubleshooting for about a year and have learned how to resolve it quickly when it happens, but not how to prevent it from happening again and again: about 3-5 times per week (so about half the times watching on the Joey), watching Streaming services (Netflix, Paramount+, Hulu, the Dish OnDemand programming that uses Internet, etc.) the streaming service will stop responding. At that point, everything that requires Internet access stops working on all 3 Joey's we have in our house, but not directly on the Hopper 3 -- still works there. Regular TV (live and DVR) still works fine. After a few minutes, the Joeys will pop up a gear icon and message in the upper right of the screen saying something along the lines of "Ethernet connection lost" or "Internet disconnected" (can't recall the exact wording, but it's something like one of those).

Resetting the Joey that started the problem or even all 3 Joeys has no effect.

Resetting the Hopper 3 does fix this, but that takes several minutes to complete the restart cycle and if anything was recording at the time, it will lose the recording while it restarts (usually happens during Primetime Anytime recording, so it would lose a lot). A faster fix that doesn't interfere with active recording is just to go to Settings -> Diagnostics -> Network -> Reset Network. That only resets the Ethernet, which fixes the problem and only takes about 1.5 - 2 minutes. But, that's still a hassle, especially if it's in the middle of a movie or a show and requires going into the other room with the Hopper to properly navigate the screen to do it (I've tried to just use the remote in the other room, but it's tough to get it right when you can't see the selection changes on the screen). Frankly, at this point, I'm just as likely to just switch to streaming over the Xbox, because that's a faster fix, but has the downside that switching back to watching TV or Dish DVR content is then a bit of a hassle.

Also, if I do nothing, it will be working again the next day. Presumably, that's because of the nightly Hopper reset, but not certain that's the source of the fix.

I've never noticed it happen when I'm not actively streaming, but it's possible that happens too and I just don't notice. It seems that the act of having the Hopper route significant Internet data over the MOCA connection causes it to sometimes fail. That is, it seems more likely to happen when pushing its routing capabilities by streaming 4K content rather than the low-level 720p HD content of Dish OnDemand. Not certain that's a factor, but seems like it. It also MIGHT be more likely to occur for some streaming services, like Hulu or Paramount+, than others like Netflix or Amazon Prime (maybe).

My first diagnosis was that the problem must be the Hopper 3, it's routing capabilities from Ethernet In to MOCA Out must be buggy -- problem occurs on all Joeys at the same time, but network access still works on the Hopper (and no Internet issues with any other devices like the Xbox, phones, or laptops), and resetting the Hopper immediately fixes. HOWEVER, Dish replaced the Hopper 3 for us with a brand new one and it had no effect on the problem. Same exact intermittent MOCA disconnects that are only fixable by resetting the Hopper or Hopper Networking. So, unless both Hoppers had this same bizarre problem, it's not the Hopper.

So maybe the coax wiring, but it occurs on all Joeys at the same time and why would resetting the Hopper's networking always fix it if there were a break or similar problem with the wiring?

I assume not everyone has this problem with the Joey 4, right? (Note: NOT the older Joey or Joey 4K -- only aware of this problem with the newest Joey 4 that supports 4K TV in HDR and runs Android TV to support downloading streaming apps like Hulu, Paramount+, Peacock, Disney+, etc.)? If your Joey doesn't show Android TV at launch and include Google Play access to download all the various streaming apps, it's not the Joey 4. This has been a common point of confusion with Dish tech support who mostly don't seem to know the difference between the Joey 4 and the Joey 4K, which are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT devices (ironically, only the Joey 4 can do modern 4K due to HDR, where the older Joey 4K does not support HDR and so can only do a small subset of Dish's 4K content because now most 4K content also requires HDR, including the Super Bowl, which is how I first learned about this distinction). This is why I'm giving up on them and posting here.

Any ideas or even thoughts of other things I can try to stop the Hopper 3 from losing the Ethernet connection routing when streaming?

Summary for your diagnostic support:

• Internet always works fine to the Hopper 3 and to other unrelated devices using the same Internet connection
• TV and DVR always work fine on the Hopper and Joeys
• Only MOCA Ethernet fails, leaving the Joeys without access to anything that requires Internet (streaming services and Dish's streaming On Demand). When it fails to 1 Joey, it fails to all 3 of our Joey 4 units.
• Seems to fail only while streaming content (and maybe only content that uses more bandwidth, like 4K HDR, but not sure the type of streaming content matters)
• Resetting Networking on Hopper 3 always fixes all Joeys and they can resume streaming, without even restarting the Hopper.
• Dish replaced Hopper 3 with a new Hopper 3 - no effect
• On average, probably happens about once per every 3 hours of streaming, but varies

 

[tjboston5676]

Hard to tell from your post, are you connected to internet via wifi or ethernet?
When connected to some wifi routers for whatever reason it can cause moca drop outs. And going to ethernet usually resolves it.

If already connected via ethernet, you may try a different ethernet cable.

The reason resetting the network on the hopper fixes it is because the hopper handles all things with internet and moca. Resetting the network resets both. It's similar to unplugging and plugging back in except it's a digital switch being turned off and back on. Also since the moca signal is sent out to all joeys together any mica issues originating at the hopper will cause all joeys to stop.

As last resort you can check your grounding. First go outside and see if the dish is grounded at all. It's okay if it's not, as most systems aren't. But if it is and it's not done properly it can cause more issues than an ungrounded system. If it is grounded, the cable coming from the dish will have a smaller wire on the side called a messenger wire. The messenger should stay completely part of the cable run except at the two ends where there should be a few inches lifted off and one end attached to base of dish mount and other end attached to a ground block or hub. Then a green wire from the block or hub to the grounding source which should be no longer than 20ft (might be 25ft, can't remember). The grounding source should be bonded with the house's electrical ground. So if it goes to it's own ground rod that isn't bonded to the main electrical ground then it's no good.
If all that checks out, you can try using a three prong to two prong piwer adapter which will lift the ground on the hopper. If that fixes the issue then you have something wrong in your electrical system. If it does not fix it and trying a different ethernet cable doesn't either or using ethernet if on wifi currebtky, then I guess the hopper just doesn't like you lol.

 

[GraniteStateColin]

Hard to tell from your post, are you connected to internet via wifi or ethernet?
When connected to some wifi routers for whatever reason it can cause moca drop outs. And going to ethernet usually resolves it.

If already connected via ethernet, you may try a different ethernet cable.

The reason resetting the network on the hopper fixes it is because the hopper handles all things with internet and moca. Resetting the network resets both. It's similar to unplugging and plugging back in except it's a digital switch being turned off and back on. Also since the moca signal is sent out to all joeys together any mica issues originating at the hopper will cause all joeys to stop.

As last resort you can check your grounding. First go outside and see if the dish is grounded at all. It's okay if it's not, as most systems aren't. But if it is and it's not done properly it can cause more issues than an ungrounded system. If it is grounded, the cable coming from the dish will have a smaller wire on the side called a messenger wire. The messenger should stay completely part of the cable run except at the two ends where there should be a few inches lifted off and one end attached to base of dish mount and other end attached to a ground block or hub. Then a green wire from the block or hub to the grounding source which should be no longer than 20ft (might be 25ft, can't remember). The grounding source should be bonded with the house's electrical ground. So if it goes to it's own ground rod that isn't bonded to the main electrical ground then it's no good.
If all that checks out, you can try using a three prong to two prong piwer adapter which will lift the ground on the hopper. If that fixes the issue then you have something wrong in your electrical system. If it does not fix it and trying a different ethernet cable doesn't either or using ethernet if on wifi currebtky, then I guess the hopper just doesn't like you lol.

Sorry, Hopper 3 is connected via Ethernet cable. But, I have also tried Wi-Fi and both top and bottom Ethernet ports. Makes no difference. Same problem occurs regardless.

Your grounding suggestion sounds promising. I recall the installer commenting when he swapped the Hopper to see if that would fix the problem that he detected low voltage on a line that shouldn't have had any voltage. But everything appeared to work (problem is intermittent, can go a few days before MOCA loses Ethernet, and gets fixed every night at 3am when Hopper restarts itself) so not surprising it wasn't happening while he was here and I didn't think anything of it.

I'm not sure I follow your suggested fix for the grounding. Where do I find the Dish's grounding? I can definitely connect that to the house ground if I can find it. Is there a link to a picture that shows a wiring diagram or something visual I may be able to follow?

And just to be sure: do you have the Joey 4 and not have this problem? I actually haven't found anyone else using Joey 4's who is sure they don't have the same problem. I assume if this were widespread, Dish would know about it, but maybe not many people use the Hopper Plus or Joey 4 for streaming services (i.e., maybe they use their smart TV for streaming), in which case, for all I know, everyone has the same problem and just don't notice it.

 

[tjboston5676]

I do have have a Joey 4 with no issues. If I remember, I'll draw you a diagram later of proper grounding or make a video.

 

[GraniteStateColin]

I do have have a Joey 4 with no issues. If I remember, I'll draw you a diagram later of proper grounding or make a video.

Thanks I'll definitely try to follow those instructions.

And when you say you have a Joey 4 with no problems, do you stream 4K, HDR videos from the non-Dish streaming services (Hulu, Paramount+, Disney+, Amazon Prime Video (but as an app, not via channel 301), Netflix (but as an app, not via channel 302), etc.)? I don't ever see the Internet connection cut out from anything else. Only the UHD 4K+HDR content to a 4K TV and only Internet streaming. All DVR and live TV content always works fine (even when the MOCA networking has shut down). So unless you're doing specific Internet app streaming at UHD 4K HDR to a TV that supports that and therefore requires that full HDR 4K bandwidth, you'd never notice the problem.

Also note that for me, when it's in this state, I can still stream On Demand content (like HBO On-Demand as channel 310, but not the related Max app). I believe this is because for Dish On-Demand functions, the Hopper downloads over the Internet, but then delivers the signal to the Joeys like a DVR viewing, not over MOCA Internet.

My concern is that the Hopper 3 maybe can't handle the higher bandwidth needs of those services, or it's right on the cusp of handling them (which is why it sometimes works without issue for several hours), and then finally some network service in the software or firmware shuts down. That's why restarting just the networking on the Hopper 3 ALWAYS fixes it.

 

[Jim5506]

All that streaming from various sources sounds like you also have a Hopper+. That is what it was intended for - streaming content from more apps than are native to the Hopper3.

 

[GraniteStateColin]

All that streaming from various sources sounds like you also have a Hopper+. That is what it was intended for - streaming content from more apps than are native to the Hopper3.

Yes, and that always works (never loses Internet access like the Joeys do). It's only the Joey 4's that lose Internet access. I believe the network switch that routes the Internet to the Joeys over MOCA is in the Hopper 3 not the Hopper+ device.

In our household, the Hopper 3 and Hopper+ are in my office, which doesn't even have a 4K TV. The 4K HDR TVs are in our den and gameroom, which both use Joey 4's.

Does that distinction lead you to a different diagnosis?

 

[GraniteStateColin]

All that streaming from various sources sounds like you also have a Hopper+. That is what it was intended for - streaming content from more apps than are native to the Hopper3.

But also note that if you have the Joey 4, it provides all the same functions as the Hopper+. You don't need the Hopper+ to use the streaming features on the Joey 4. If you don't see that Android TV and app options, then it's because you're on a Joey 3 or Joey 4K, which are completely different from a true Joey 4.

Ironically, the Joey 4K does not do 4K as well as the Joey 4, because the Qoey 4K lacks HDR support (it's really more like a Joey 3 with partial 4K support), and much of Dish's 4K content is only available to Joeys that support HDR, including the 540 sub-channel needed to watch the Super Bowl in 4K. That critical HDR support first became available on the newer Joey 4, which also runs on Android TV and adds all the streaming options.

Terrible and confusing naming by Dish, which has apparently confused all their phone techs: I've never found anyone at Dish on the phone who understands this distinction, which took hours on the phone over many months and multiple technician visits to my house and my studying a lot of posts on this site before I figured out what was going on and why I was missing 4K channels with my Joey 4Ks. Dish should have called it the Joey 5 instead of Joey 4 to make clear (especially to their own people who seem to think 4 = 4K) that it's newer than the Joey 4K (a Joey 3 with 4K enhancements).