Is Dish ever going to 1080p for all broadcasts?

[Stargazer]

So if OTA goes MPEG-4 does that mean that all these converter boxes and built in tuners in people's televisions will no longer be good?

 

[CowboyDren]

It will be a long time coming. The change to MPEG-4 for broadcast TV (OTA) would require a change in the ATSC standard. Think how long it took to change from NTSC to ATSC.

Speed of adoption at ATSC isn't a problem; the codec has been canonized already. ATSC (standards) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Now it's a matter of telling everyone in the United States that the TV they just spent $700-$3500 on is just a big paperweight, because it can't decode H.264 streams.

 

[toto]

There is no increase in bandwidth for 1080P/24 (i.e. movie based) or for 1080P/30. The only problem is that few of the providers are even experimenting with it and none are currently providing it regularly. Only increased bandwidth is for 1080p/60.

Which isn't an (at this time) HD format. I do think 1080p does require extra bandwidth.

 

[navychop]

Speed of adoption at ATSC isn't a problem; the codec has been canonized already. ATSC (standards) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Now it's a matter of telling everyone in the United States that the TV they just spent $700-$3500 on is just a big paperweight, because it can't decode H.264 streams.

Interesting about the adoption. I'd missed that. However, the latter part of your post is the key. It will tend to freeze all action by fearful government agencies (politicians). Maybe they'll mandate incorporating it in all tuners for a few years before allowing MPEG-4 broadcasts. But it certainly makes sense to add it soon. Before OTA dwindles even more. And any equipment upgrades planned by stations should certainly be MPEG-4 ready (or friendly, at least).

Frequent changes in the standard will annoy the heck out of people. I wonder how long before the successor to MPEG-4 raises it's head?

 

[navychop]

Which isn't an (at this time) HD format. I do think 1080p does require extra bandwidth.

ATSC Table 3 Formats for DTV Transmission

Vert……….horz………aspect………fps/scan
1080………1920………16:9….....24p, 30p, 30i
720..………1280………16:9….....24p, 30p, 60p
480..……..…704………16:9….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p
480..……..…704……….4:3.….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p
480..……..…640……….4:3.….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p


progressive 1080 * 1920 * 30 frames per second = 62,208,000

interlaced 1080 * 1920 * 30 fields per second (15 frames per second) = 31,104,000

progressive 720 * 1280 * 60 frames per second = 55,296,000


1080 60p is no doubt the holy grail, but would require twice the bandwidth and while it might be supportable by MPEG-4 OTA, I doubt we'll see it in the foreseeable future. All the collection, transporting and editing equipment would need replacement. Is there a 1080 60p camera in general use today? Never mind the rest of the requirements.

 

[whatchel1]

A while

Interesting about the adoption. I'd missed that. However, the latter part of your post is the key. It will tend to freeze all action by fearful government agencies (politicians). Maybe they'll mandate incorporating it in all tuners for a few years before allowing MPEG-4 broadcasts. But it certainly makes sense to add it soon. Before OTA dwindles even more.

Frequent changes in the standard will annoy the heck out of people. I wonder how long before the successor to MPEG-4 raises it's head?

The next steps are still being tested before any changes can be made. The ATSC committee will have to decide as to which new standard will be the one that they are going to go to. I expect we will see them moving to 1440 p as well in those standards.

 

[navychop]

Now THAT will be different. But I must ask- I've read about 1440 as a cut down from 1920, but I gather you are talking about an up from 1080. ???

 

[CowboyDren]

The next steps are still being tested before any changes can be made. The ATSC committee will have to decide as to which new standard will be the one that they are going to go to. I expect we will see them moving to 1440 p as well in those standards.

This is the crux of any further advancements in broadcast technology. It'd be nice to get Blu-ray quality football games with an antenna, but it's not worth the expense to the consumer. Even when a TV station sends out a 1440p signal, the only people who are going to watch it are going to be pay-TV subscribers, and they're going to suffer from compression added at the distribution stage.

 

[Ghpr13]

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know if OTA in Japan is 1080p? The reason I ask is that I have always heard that Japan had HDTV for a few years now, but I never knew any of the details.
Thanks,
Ghpr13

 

[toto]

ATSC Table 3 Formats for DTV Transmission

Vert……….horz………aspect………fps/scan
1080………1920………16:9….....24p, 30p, 30i
720..………1280………16:9….....24p, 30p, 60p
480..……..…704………16:9….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p
480..……..…704……….4:3.….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p
480..……..…640……….4:3.….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p


progressive 1080 * 1920 * 30 frames per second = 62,208,000

interlaced 1080 * 1920 * 30 fields per second (15 frames per second) = 31,104,000

progressive 720 * 1280 * 60 frames per second = 55,296,000


1080 60p is no doubt the holy grail, but would require twice the bandwidth and while it might be supportable by MPEG-4 OTA, I doubt we'll see it in the foreseeable future. All the collection, transporting and editing equipment would need replacement. Is there a 1080 60p camera in general use today? Never mind the rest of the requirements.

The 1920X1080 should read 60i/30p/24p There is no 60p 1080 format under the current standards. There also is no requirement for HD, just digital. It is in providers best interest to utilize their bandwidth as prudently as possible. While the Sat companies send 480, 720 or 1080 according to the original broadcast they are converting from MPEG2 to MPEG4 to better utilize the bandwidth. MPEG 4 is the first non linial digital format being used.
This makes it more efficient, but also more complicated.

 

[navychop]

The 1920X1080 should read 60i/30p/24p There is no 60p 1080 format under the current standards. There also is no requirement for HD, just digital.....

Yes, I agree about 60i but that was taken straight from government pubs. And I posted it to show that there is no ATSC broadcast standard of 1080 60p. It's still a desirable goal.

I've seen as many as 10 subchannels. Think how many may come online with MPEG-4!


And let's see how long the committee takes to decide upon a mobile extension to ATSC.

 

[CowboyDren]

The 1920X1080 should read 60i/30p/24p There is no 60p 1080 format under the current standards. There also is no requirement for HD, just digital. It is in providers best interest to utilize their bandwidth as prudently as possible.

Hadn't thought about that. There's nothing to keep broadcasters from sending a 480i/MPEG2 stream along side a 2880p/MPEG6 stream, as long as the 480i stream is decodable by current set-top hardware technologies.

Good news: 1440p, MPEG4, and whatever else is possible. Bad news: You still have to buy new gear to decode it.

 

[2001kx]

I recently got a 73" 1080p TV and realize the artifacts in the compressed 1080i on Dish. It still looks great overall but I would love to see all the HD shows in 1080p.

i have the same tv..
how do you like it?
i love mine...picture (HD) looks great for a projection tv with a huge screen.

 

[whatchel1]

No

Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but does anyone know if OTA in Japan is 1080p? The reason I ask is that I have always heard that Japan had HDTV for a few years now, but I never knew any of the details.
Thanks,
Ghpr13

No they use the same standard there.

 

[tnsprin]

Which isn't an (at this time) HD format. I do think 1080p does require extra bandwidth.

Incorrect. 1080p/24 and 1080p/30 are part of the ATSC broadcast standard and are HD. There even have been test broadcast of 1080p/24 by major stations. Because some early receiver performed marginally in some of these tests it was generally decided not to risk regular broadcasts.

For the same picture quality 1080p/24 normally uses significantly less bandwidth that 1080i. 1080p/30 can use slightly less bandwidth than 1080i because of compression efficiencies with a progressive picture (otherwise 1080p/30 and1080i/30 will use the same amount of bandwidth).

 

[Derwin0]

So if OTA goes MPEG-4 does that mean that all these converter boxes and built in tuners in people's televisions will no longer be good?

Yep, which pretty much means that OTA will never go MPEG-4.

 

[tnsprin]

ATSC Table 3 Formats for DTV Transmission

Vert……….horz………aspect………fps/scan
1080………1920………16:9….....24p, 30p, 30i
720..………1280………16:9….....24p, 30p, 60p
480..……..…704………16:9….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p
480..……..…704……….4:3.….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p
480..……..…640……….4:3.….....24p, 30p, 30i, 60p


progressive 1080 * 1920 * 30 frames per second = 62,208,000

interlaced 1080 * 1920 * 30 fields per second (15 frames per second) = 31,104,000

progressive 720 * 1280 * 60 frames per second = 55,296,000


1080 60p is no doubt the holy grail, but would require twice the bandwidth and while it might be supportable by MPEG-4 OTA, I doubt we'll see it in the foreseeable future. All the collection, transporting and editing equipment would need replacement. Is there a 1080 60p camera in general use today? Never mind the rest of the requirements.

The standard for broadcast is 1080i at 60i (Can also be 59.94). That is 60 fields a seconds or 30 frames. Essentially the same number of pixels for 1080p/30 and 1080i/30 (sometimes shown as 1080i60).

 

[STL]

Yep, which pretty much means that OTA will never go MPEG-4.

I basically agree, but I won't say never. I just cannot see OTA going Mpeg-4 anytime soon. Neither the networks nor the consumer is ready to start investing in new equipment and scraping their old -- not after having done it so recently for the digital transition.

 

[TheKrell]

1080p/30 can use slightly less bandwidth than 1080i because of compression efficiencies with a progressive picture (otherwise 1080p/30 and1080i/30 will use the same amount of bandwidth).

One wonders why 1080i/30 exists at all.

 

[tnsprin]

One wonders why 1080i/30 exists at all.

Remember CRT based Tv's? Interlace has essentially been the standard for a long time. And if based on interlace scanning cameras the image is a bit smoother then a 30p picture. Obviously interlacing introduces its on problems.