Installers made a huge deal about everything so I sent them packing ... now what?

[bebop]

Don Landis, you have a good handle on electrical theory and application regarding grounding. This quoted explanation is priceless!



bebop, the Don Landis quote should answer your question thoroughly?

If I put the two together - it sounds like I need to get a ground rod and a sledgehammer and just do it myself then.

Maybe the technician will splice the RG6 going into the home and install a grounding block. I was thinking that and having a ground from the dish itself to a nearby ground. I've never looked at what a properly grounded install is like. I'm familiar with the grounding block for the RG6, but what is typical for the Dish ground? Anything?

 

[magnum2066]

If I put the two together - it sounds like I need to get a ground rod and a sledgehammer and just do it myself then.

Maybe the technician will splice the RG6 going into the home and install a grounding block. I was thinking that and having a ground from the dish itself to a nearby ground. I've never looked at what a properly grounded install is like. I'm familiar with the grounding block for the RG6, but what is typical for the Dish ground? Anything?

The coax run from the dish to the grounding block should have a small "messenger" wire attached to it. From the grounding block there should be a 10 gauge wire to the grounding source. Coax from the grounding block to receiver just needs to be a regular piece of coax.

 

[DirectDishNet]

Let's give these guys some credit, please.

:up Thank You! :up

 

[tonystewart20]

Good on ya mate!


I do have to give you guys some credit though. You are caught between a rock (Charlie) and a hard place (Customer Satisfaction) with not much in between (profit). After a few installs I got some of the installers to really tell me how the payments are made and how they get (cough) reimbursed. I thought it was/is highway robbery, so on that one, I'm on your side.

But you have to understand that a normal 'uneducated' customer thinks they are really dealing with Dish Network in Colorado and not a sub. The one time I did get a real Dish installer (from Indy) he was super courteous, talked to me like a real person, went way out of his way to do things right (even though I would have been content with a switch, he ran an entire new cable from the dish, either one would have met the standards) so that I could have more options in the future if I wanted to expand again.

He worked in 100 degree temps on ladders when he didn't have to and I tried to help him as much as I could with holding and feeding cable to him, bringing him cold water, etc. He was commenting on how as he ran the cable he had to pull out the old cheap anchors the other installer used on the dual coax and re-fasten everything with new anchors and even tie wraps. The previous sub used the cheap (low dielectric(sp)) barrel connectors and explained how the dish's push power through the lines and the cheap radio shack stuff will fail and cause issues.


It became so obvious as to the quality of his works that I asked him the difference between our local CMH subs and real Dish paid installers and he gave me the info. Again, I couldn't believe you guys even make any money at this much less have to take the sh_)_t from the customers.



.

[soapbox off]

LETS HEAR IT FOR INHOUSE TECHS. WOO HOO

 

[bookworm370]

The coax run from the dish to the grounding block should have a small "messenger" wire attached to it. From the grounding block there should be a 10 gauge wire to the grounding source. Coax from the grounding block to receiver just needs to be a regular piece of coax.

Magnum,

Therein, my problem lay. The original sub stripped off the messenger wire from the dual coax saying that wasn't required (funny because he's the one that didn't ground the dish) and asked if I wanted about 60' of really good copper wire? He said it made running the cable that much more difficult, so the first thing he did was ask me to walk one way with the messenger wire as he was unspooling. Back then, I had no clue so I did what he told me. Nicely wrapped up the messenger wire and now have lots of really good ground wire and expensive copper!

After I researched, and saw that he never even hooked up any grounds (nothing in the coax into the house, nothing from the dish to ground; that's when I went into my own grounding frenzy (see above). The good thing is the Dish In house tech complemented me on how well the system was 'internally' installed even though he had to redo a lot of the connectors (cheaper RS style were used) with the newer 'blue guts' ones while he was running the 3rd cable.

He also checked the peak angles and elevation of the dish as he said it normally drifts a little over time. The elevation needed a couple of degrees tweak but he was surprised how much the slew was off. It wasn't even close to what was required for my log/lat. He readjusted that and my signal levels came up almost 10 points (a little more for the sats that were off angle (not sure which ones they were, prob 110 and 129). I just checked (now) and I'm getting 80's on the 110 and 119 sats across most transponders with 40-50 on the 129 on the 5 spotbeam. I don't think those are bad numbers considering I'm on the fringe (Ohio) of the western arc!

 

[TheForce]

NASA is exploring the moon for water so we may one day populate it. I wonder if the moon's ground will allow for a good ground when we start pounding ground rods in the surface...... Think dish would inspect our work there?

(This thread is getting wild, Just wanted to add some funny to it)

LOL! OK I'll bite- No atmosphere = no weather, therefore, no ground required.
direct quote from the MEC ( Moon Electrical Code )

Just kidding of course- I know static can build in a vacuum.

 

[TheForce]

If I put the two together - it sounds like I need to get a ground rod and a sledgehammer and just do it myself then.

Maybe the technician will splice the RG6 going into the home and install a grounding block. I was thinking that and having a ground from the dish itself to a nearby ground. I've never looked at what a properly grounded install is like. I'm familiar with the grounding block for the RG6, but what is typical for the Dish ground? Anything?

Highly recommend a ground rod, buy at Home Depot, Radio Shack etc.

a piece of advice- If you fear the installer from hell, err, I mean, from DishNetwork, you can always hire a licensed electrician to do the grounding per NEC and local building codes for you. I would never suggest a lay person attempt to interpret the code. Remember there are possibly three codes you would need to understand. NEC, local building codes, and if you depend on Dish for service, their codes, do's and don'ts.


OK, now I have a question for the Dish Network installers-

Does Dish Network now forbid installers to install a Dish on a roof?

Second, if you show up at a home to upgrade a receiver and discover the home owner has a proper ( by code) roof mount dish, will DishNetwork make you remove the existing roof mount and install a new dish off the roof?


Now I have to get personal with this question-
I have a 622 with a 61.5 dish and a Dish 500 with a recent upgraded DPP LNB. The rest of the system is all proper per code and each dish is on it's own ground rod and properly bonded etc. The dishes have been recently (August 09) inspected by the city building roofing inspector because I had my roof redone.
Now, I plan to upgrade the 622 to a 922 when they are released. Will the installer insist on removing any of my dish system when he swaps out the 622 for a 922? Additional info- I get all my locals from an off air antenna and never use Dish for that, ever. I don't even think the HD channels are on an orbital slot I am pointing to and don't care. My signal is excellent since the local broadcast antenna farm is line of sight 4 miles away and I use an outdoor roof mount LP yagi.

 

[bebop]

The coax run from the dish to the grounding block should have a small "messenger" wire attached to it. From the grounding block there should be a 10 gauge wire to the grounding source. Coax from the grounding block to receiver just needs to be a regular piece of coax.

Well that's the start of the problem. There is no messenger wire (ground) with the coax off the satellite.

Thanks for the info!

 

[DirectDishNet]

Originally Posted by Don Landis:

OK, now I have a question for the Dish Network installers-

Does Dish Network now forbid installers to install a Dish on a roof?

NO, As long as it is not mounted on a roof over a living space. An eve or fascia should be fine.

Second, if you show up at a home to upgrade a receiver and discover the home owner has a proper ( by code) roof mount dish, will DishNetwork make you remove the existing roof mount and install a new dish off the roof?

As long as it is not mounted over a living space it will be fine.
When mounting on a roof, The installer must use "pitch Patch - Bishops Tape" and use 6 lag bolts.
Eve mounting on an fascia the installer must use a "fascia mount" and again 6 bolts.

 

[dishcomm]

They showed up late ~ 4:00 PM to install the upgrade system.

First thing out of their mouth was oh god ... it's on the roof and a chimney. My chimney is 6' x 4' x 4' HUGE, block and brick and that is where the dish is now. They called Dish, a guy named Phil gave me a BS line and I told him he was nuts.

Next they started complaining about the ground and said they would have to run a whole new line back to the power box then back to the receiver???? I suggested cutting the line where it comes into the attic, putting the ground block on it and run the ground line alone back to the power box and the coax to the receiver .... electrically identical. Nope, can't do that! Called Dish again and "Phil" said it had to be to code ... electrically identical ... nuts again.

Then oh my god ... I have to drill a hole .. . can't I lay it on the roof and go in this vent instead! Finally I had enough and told them to leave.

So am I just screwed on this now? I'm not dealing with another one of these idiots and I have no way of knowing if I can get a good installer.

Who can I call other than the normal number which is a waste of time.

First..If the time frame on the work order is 12-5 and the tech shows up at 4pm he is ON TIME. That time frame describes and ARRIVAL time frame.
THe tech could have run the groundwire down provided it was not greater than 20ft in length. That is a specification to which we MUST adhere.
Quite frankly I would have gone into the attic and sought out a ground point there. Either the ground of an electrical outlet or light fixture.
If the roof was walkable with safety in as prioroity one, I would have been saying "great, I don't have to worry about doing a bunch of drilling into brick".
I am a contractor. I don't get paid if I walk. Even on the sh*t jobs. So I find a way to get them done if possible
Hpurly guys can be a different story. Ya never know.
You're not out of luck . Call Dish tell them your story and request a manager come to the site.

 

[magnum2066]

Getting a minimum of 2 lag bolts into a stud is also required for a roof mount, 3 for a fascia. I try mounting it close to the edge because I usually can get at least 4 into a stud.

To me the messenger wire from the dish to the ground block isn't too important as long as the grounding block itself is grounded properly. For example if I come across a pole mount and coax without the messenger I usually leave it as is and double check the grounding block. The messenger wire just gives static/lightening an easier path to the ground. If lightening strikes the dish you're screwed either way. In bookworm's instance I'm not sure why the tech said its harder to run, because its not. I find that it helps keep the coax straighter if you don't bend it out of shape.

Don Landis: You can replace the 622 no problem and use your current setup as long as you don't need the 129 satellite for programming reasons. If you do need the 129 all it takes is a clear view and a 1000.2 reflector/LNB.

Quite frankly I would have gone into the attic and sought out a ground point there. Either the ground of an electrical outlet or light fixture.

You cannot use that as a ground legally since it is considered a "shared ground."

If a tech takes a second to take pics and send it to his boss you'll most likely get charged back for it.

 

[Hall]

An installer told me today that he was charged $25 on a job he did for a customer because he did not connect the receiver to the landline. The problem is, the customer does not use or have a land line, he uses a cellular phone exclusively.

I have to ask, can installers, whether they're Dish employees or contractors "dispute" these charges ? What if the installer notes this on his/her work order ? Or, can the installer refuse or cancel the install because of the lack of a landline ?

Another customer insisted that the installer use a non-penetrating roof mount. But this is not part of the basic installation requirements and the service provider would not cover a NPRM. The installer makes $70 on the installation, but expected to pay $65 out of pocket for the NRRM?

And ? What happened ?

I've read many of these stories from installers over the years and it's a wonder there are any installers left.....

 

[DirectDishNet]

hall,
Speaking as a sub-contractor and not a In-House tech

I have never been reprimanded in any way for not plugging a customers receiver into a landline. There was a push in the past but I think dish realizes most people do not have landlines any more.

If a customer request a non pen dish mount, I pass on the charges to the customer. I carry my product catalog and vender price list with me so I can show them exactly how much I pay and so they don't think I am trying to up selling them.

 

[Liquidforce88]

I have to ask, can installers, whether they're Dish employees or contractors "dispute" these charges ? What if the installer notes this on his/her work order ? Or, can the installer refuse or cancel the install because of the lack of a landline ?
And ? What happened ?

I've read many of these stories from installers over the years and it's a wonder there are any installers left.....

No there is no dispute. They charge you and thats that. I have heard techs say they fought it, but never seen where one got their money back.

Direct has now made phone line connections part of your pay structure. If you don't get enough phone lines connected your pay goes down for the WHOLE next month. They don't give a damn if every customer you had only had cell phones. Looks like Dish is now after their techs for it as well.

Yeah refuse an install because no phone lines :haha Both Satco's are get the job in no matter what, unless the customer can't see the satellites to get signal.

This is why there are so few good installers, and getting to be less and less every day. Most have moved into other fields or have gone retail where they still pay some what decent rates for installs, they just don't have the volume of work. So now RSP's, HSP's, DNSC, are left with newbie's and the hacks that know how to skirt the system or just don't care.

 

[UnSat]

If the customer has a land line and the install is part of a telco bundle.I beleive the telco should do the phone line install or Dish should provide free remote phone jacks.

I am not a phone tech if I was i would work for a telco.I do not get extra pay for a phone line install.If there is a jack close by, no problem hooking the reciver to it ,if not oh well.

 

[dishcomm]

Getting a minimum of 2 lag bolts into a stud is also required for a roof mount, 3 for a fascia. I try mounting it close to the edge because I usually can get at least 4 into a stud.

To me the messenger wire from the dish to the ground block isn't too important as long as the grounding block itself is grounded properly. For example if I come across a pole mount and coax without the messenger I usually leave it as is and double check the grounding block. The messenger wire just gives static/lightening an easier path to the ground. If lightening strikes the dish you're screwed either way. In bookworm's instance I'm not sure why the tech said its harder to run, because its not. I find that it helps keep the coax straighter if you don't bend it out of shape.

Don Landis: You can replace the 622 no problem and use your current setup as long as you don't need the 129 satellite for programming reasons. If you do need the 129 all it takes is a clear view and a 1000.2 reflector/LNB.


You cannot use that as a ground legally since it is considered a "shared ground."

If a tech takes a second to take pics and send it to his boss you'll most likely get charged back for it.

NOt according to the DNS office here AND my Dad who has forgotten more about electricity than most of us will ever know.,
I ran into this on an install. I called my Dad and asked him if this was a viable ground and he told me it was ok to ground it there. I doublechecked this with my spervisior who had a copy of a memo sent by the GM of the local DNS office..Everyone was in agreement on the ground.
We are allowed to use, the can of a wring panel provided there is an electrical out inside, the outer casing of an airhandler in the attic, an electrical raceway provided it is all metal and is continuous, cold water copper pipe provided the entire water system in the house is copper..
Not permitted, ground rods, ground wire longer than 20 feet, ground wire longer than the shortest run from gnd block to the first receiver, gas pipe( yes I have seen this), lightinging protection system.
Ther seems toi be different rules for various offices. In many cases it looks like there are offices with poor completion pct's because of stringent grounding rules.
IMO this created too many craters for techs who battle with the rules vs completion percentages.
The MO of management seems to be to place all the responsibility on the techs. IN other words, the mgment makes up a whole bucnh of rules that state do not do install if this or that is present, then the mgments are up the techs's asses about competion pct.
It's a no win battle vs a moving target.

 

[dishcomm]

No there is no dispute. They charge you and thats that. I have heard techs say they fought it, but never seen where one got their money back.

Direct has now made phone line connections part of your pay structure. If you don't get enough phone lines connected your pay goes down for the WHOLE next month. They don't give a damn if every customer you had only had cell phones. Looks like Dish is now after their techs for it as well.

Yeah refuse an install because no phone lines :haha Both Satco's are get the job in no matter what, unless the customer can't see the satellites to get signal.

This is why there are so few good installers, and getting to be less and less every day. Most have moved into other fields or have gone retail where they still pay some what decent rates for installs, they just don't have the volume of work. So now RSP's, HSP's, DNSC, are left with newbie's and the hacks that know how to skirt the system or just don't care.

IMO it is criminal to reduce pay for not connecting a phone line. D* has always had this wrong. Requring techs to do telco installs should never have been part of a satellite install. One reason why I won't do D*.
On the E* side we are required to connect only if there is an existing jack near the receiver where the connection will not cross a doorway or threshold where the wire can be a trip hazard.
If a customer wants a landline installed they can opt for a wireless phione jack at their expense or they may ask for a hardwire install. Again at customer expense.
We charge for all hardware and labor not specifically spelled out in teh DN Service Agreement form.
Wallfishes, phone lines, nonpen roof mounts, other custom work is chargeable.

 

[TheForce]

Originally Posted by Don Landis:

OK, now I have a question for the Dish Network installers-

Does Dish Network now forbid installers to install a Dish on a roof?

NO, As long as it is not mounted on a roof over a living space. An eve or fascia should be fine.

Second, if you show up at a home to upgrade a receiver and discover the home owner has a proper ( by code) roof mount dish, will DishNetwork make you remove the existing roof mount and install a new dish off the roof?

As long as it is not mounted over a living space it will be fine.
When mounting on a roof, The installer must use "pitch Patch - Bishops Tape" and use 6 lag bolts.
Eve mounting on an fascia the installer must use a "fascia mount" and again 6 bolts.

Hey- thanks for DishNetwork's latest policy on this. I guess I'm safe as my three dishes are mounted over the roof overhang beyond the outside wall. I only have them mounted with 4 SS 1/2" bolts, and large washers and nuts since I can access the underside to screw the nuts on through a backup plate. As I recall the Dish bases only have 4 mounting holes. Do new bases have 6? Anyway, my dishes have held uop fine in 100mph winds here which is the highest we have had since the beginning of D*. Frankly, I think the pipe would bend over before ripping the mount from the roof.

 

[dishcomm]

Hey- thanks for DishNetwork's latest policy on this. I guess I'm safe as my three dishes are mounted over the roof overhang beyond the outside wall. I only have them mounted with 4 SS 1/2" bolts, and large washers and nuts since I can access the underside to screw the nuts on through a backup plate. As I recall the Dish bases only have 4 mounting holes. Do new bases have 6? Anyway, my dishes have held uop fine in 100mph winds here which is the highest we have had since the beginning of D*. Frankly, I think the pipe would bend over before ripping the mount from the roof.

First, I know of no such policy banning roof mounts over the living area. If that were the case, at least 25% of our jobs would not go in. We are in an area with large trees and hills. SO if we were prohibited from going onto the roof over a living areas, we'd have a lot of very pissed off ex-customers.
Imagine this. One of us rolls up on a job does the site survey and tells a cusotmer that we cannot do the work because even though we can go four feet up onto your roof to get a great line of sight, Dish prohibits installation of a dish over the living area of a house.
Yeah, right. I can see the customer loving that.
DIsh requires 6 bolts when the Dish is attached to any wood structure. one in each corner of the mastfoot and two in the center holeswhich MUST be into structure.

 

[magnum2066]

Dishcomm: I was under the impression that you meant an outlet ground, as in a power outlet. Apologies if I misunderstood.

Don Landis: Yes, the bases actually have 9 holes now even though we only use 6.

My DNS office up here hands out Dishcomm and Phonex telephone kits at no charge with the same going for HDMI cables for HD new connects. The only extra we charge for I think is the OTA module, which no one really has any use for. The logic with all that is if we offer the best HD programming, why give someone a wire mess by giving them component cables and a lower picture quality? Why make someone pay $5 for a dual receiver just because they don't have a telephone in that one specific room? Dish makes up for that small loss in the long run from customers purchasing PPV and other services/goods. I wish the rest of the DNS offices did the same both for the customer's and Dish's sake.

As for the mounting over the living space... I deal with a lot of country installs where most of the time there is NO reason for the dish to be on the peak of the roof. Silly tech, you're still 22,000 miles away from the satellite itself! With the exception of rare cases where you need to squeeze between several trees there is usually a way better spot to mount it.