Installer tells me it's illegal to install my dish?!?! HELP!

[Jim5506]

I see circumstances where these lease conditions could be voided by Federal Regulations, and it is the landlord's burden of proof, not the tennant.

For instance if the tennant has a patio, (exclusive use area) the landlord cannot prohibit the erection of either satellite or OTA antenna structures in these areas no matter what the lease says, the prohibition is patently illegal.

 

[Claude Greiner]

What about the ones who I get calls for every day that want it to work through a window?

I had to argue with a lady about that yesterday and she would not take no for an ansewer!

Not only is there is significant decrease in signal strengh, your dealing with a free standing mount which can easily get bumped or moved in an apartment setting!

 

[dishcomm]

I see circumstances where these lease conditions could be voided by Federal Regulations, and it is the landlord's burden of proof, not the tennant.

For instance if the tennant has a patio, (exclusive use area) the landlord cannot prohibit the erection of either satellite or OTA antenna structures in these areas no matter what the lease says, the prohibition is patently illegal.

In theory you are correct. Reality is a different ball game.
Remember who the owner of the property is. Private property rights are as close to sacrosanct as it gets.
The burden of proof only applies if the tenant wishing to spend his/her own finances on an attorney and the long hours of a court battle.
In any event while I see the point of the FCC regs. And I agree with most of the rules. However they cannot supercede the rights of property owners.
The owner must have the authority over his property so as long as it does not harm another. IMO A renter of his own choice signs an agreement stating that he will not install any type of antenna on the property is not "harm"..That person seeking housing is free to choose another place to live.
I do not necessarily agree with an outright ban. In fact it's a pain in the keester. But I am thinking outside the box on this one. If it comes down to the rights of a property owner and satelite television reception , I gotta go with the property rights.
If those rights can be trampeled upon in this manner, I may be next. So I choose to avoid setting that precedent.

 

[TNGTony]

You say you are well aware of the FCC regulation then by your comments you show you do not accept the fact that, except under the conditions provided in the regulation, a land lord MAY NOT impose restrictions.

Your artument is, I make rules since I own the property regardless of federal regulation and if you don't like it, sue me!

Q: Are there restrictions that may be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof. However, a restriction designed to prevent ordinary wear and tear (e.g., marks, scratches, and minor damage to carpets, walls and draperies) would likely not be reasonable provided the antenna is installed wholly within the antenna user's own exclusive use area. In addition, rental property is subject to the same protection and exceptions to the rule as owned property. Thus, a landlord may impose other types of restrictions that do not impair installation, maintenance or use under the rule. The landlord may also impose restrictions necessary for safety or historic preservation.

Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?

A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the local government, community association, property owner, or management entity that is trying to enforce the restriction has the burden of proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver.

Q: What types of restrictions are prohibited?

A: The rule prohibits restrictions that impair a person's ability to install, maintain, or use an antenna covered by the rule. The rule applies to state or local laws or regulations, including zoning, land-use or building regulations, private covenants, homeowners' association rules, condominium or cooperative association restrictions, lease restrictions, or similar restrictions on property within the exclusive use or control of the antenna user where the user has an ownership or leasehold interest in the property.

Essentially the property owner can intimidate his tennant or even evict him if he doesn't follow the unenforceable restriction, but if the tennant ever sues, it's the landlord with the burden and then would be liable for damages.

Play with fire and you WILL be burned eventually.

See ya
Tony

 

[dishcomm]

You say you are well aware of the FCC regulation then by your comments you show you do not accept the fact that, except under the conditions provided in the regulation, a land lord MAY NOT impose restrictions.

Your artument is, I make rules since I own the property regardless of federal regulation and if you don't like it, sue me!







Essentially the property owner can intimidate his tennant or even evict him if he doesn't follow the unenforceable restriction, but if the tennant ever sues, it's the landlord with the burden and then would be liable for damages.

Play with fire and you WILL be burned eventually.

See ya
Tony

Tony,
I in no way said I do not accept anything. I am simply reapeating what thoose in the proerty management business have told me. They ar eaware of the rules too. But the bottom line is it is THEIR property. Their words. Not mine.
I do not necessarly agree with this stance but once again I will point out that I am strong advocate of private property rights.
The "sue me" part is essentially true and is repeated over and over.
When a perosn signs a lease they agree to be bound by the terms and conditions in the lease as long as the lease does not violate landord and tennant stautes. At least in NC there are no laws to gicve guidance in this area. Based on that I guess since there isn't a law covering satellite dishes and leased living space, there is little a tennant can do.. Except challenge the mgmt's decision in court.
Now as far as the FCC rules are concerned ..There is a potential loophole in the regulations n the first sentence. One that has allowed mgmt companies to impose deposit fees on renters.
"A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. "
I have been told by managers that they consider the mere installation of a satellite dish poses a potential for damage. They state if the dish gets a lightining strike ( that's a very common excuse to keep dishes out) it could cause a fire. They write rules stating that satellite installs MAY NOT use any of the existing wiring in the building.
Here's one for ya. I had one manager state that we may not run cable through any door or window. Had one complex in another county tell me the dish had to be within the renters private space. This complex had no balconies or patios. It was one of those old school apartment buildings with a common entrance.
And i wish I had saved the sheet from the comlex..I sually hand them inot the office and we kep them for our records of satellite "un" friendly complexes..Anyway this one stated that the dish had to match the color of the exterior of the building..I said the manager that was outrageous. He resonse was basically "tough"..

I have not seen nor heard any outcry in the media about apartment dwelers protesting draconian bans on satellite tv antennas.
That in and of itself indicates to me that the issue isn't very important.
This in no way is intended to indicate agreement.
I am simply reporting the facts based on personal knowledge and experience.
I have questions for you since you appear to be an advocate for apartment dwellers.
In the context of apartment complexes, do you think it right for a satellite tech to install on private property without first seeking permission from the property owner?
Would you after getting an unfavorable answer from an apartment manager or owner, go ahead and install the system as you see fit anyway?
There's on thing that you must know about certain areas of this region. There are lots of people with snooty attitudes and even more busy bodies. Heck every subdivison in the is area, mine included ,has a list of restrictions in the covenents thick enough to choke a horse. I battle with HOA's over installs at private homes all the time. I usually get the jobs done because I keep copies of the Rules in my truck. Once a customer sees that, they tell me to go ahead and put the thing in.
Apartment leases are worse. And so ar emgrs. They look at the urles I have for them and they say well we are more restrictive here. What am I going to do? Fight with them?

 

[vegassatellite]

Tony,
I in no way said I do not accept anything. I am simply reapeating what thoose in the proerty management business have told me. They ar eaware of the rules too. But the bottom line is it is THEIR property. Their words. Not mine.
I do not necessarly agree with this stance but once again I will point out that I am strong advocate of private property rights.
The "sue me" part is essentially true and is repeated over and over.
When a perosn signs a lease they agree to be bound by the terms and conditions in the lease as long as the lease does not violate landord and tennant stautes. At least in NC there are no laws to gicve guidance in this area. Based on that I guess since there isn't a law covering satellite dishes and leased living space, there is little a tennant can do.. Except challenge the mgmt's decision in court.
Now as far as the FCC rules are concerned ..There is a potential loophole in the regulations n the first sentence. One that has allowed mgmt companies to impose deposit fees on renters.
"A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. "
I have been told by managers that they consider the mere installation of a satellite dish poses a potential for damage. They state if the dish gets a lightining strike ( that's a very common excuse to keep dishes out) it could cause a fire. They write rules stating that satellite installs MAY NOT use any of the existing wiring in the building.
Here's one for ya. I had one manager state that we may not run cable through any door or window. Had one complex in another county tell me the dish had to be within the renters private space. This complex had no balconies or patios. It was one of those old school apartment buildings with a common entrance.
And i wish I had saved the sheet from the comlex..I sually hand them inot the office and we kep them for our records of satellite "un" friendly complexes..Anyway this one stated that the dish had to match the color of the exterior of the building..I said the manager that was outrageous. He resonse was basically "tough"..

I have not seen nor heard any outcry in the media about apartment dwelers protesting draconian bans on satellite tv antennas.
That in and of itself indicates to me that the issue isn't very important.
This in no way is intended to indicate agreement.
I am simply reporting the facts based on personal knowledge and experience.
I have questions for you since you appear to be an advocate for apartment dwellers.
In the context of apartment complexes, do you think it right for a satellite tech to install on private property without first seeking permission from the property owner?
Would you after getting an unfavorable answer from an apartment manager or owner, go ahead and install the system as you see fit anyway?
There's on thing that you must know about certain areas of this region. There are lots of people with snooty attitudes and even more busy bodies. Heck every subdivison in the is area, mine included ,has a list of restrictions in the covenents thick enough to choke a horse. I battle with HOA's over installs at private homes all the time. I usually get the jobs done because I keep copies of the Rules in my truck. Once a customer sees that, they tell me to go ahead and put the thing in.
Apartment leases are worse. And so ar emgrs. They look at the urles I have for them and they say well we are more restrictive here. What am I going to do? Fight with them?

I leave it up to the tenant, after all, they're the one hiring not the property manager. FCC law, which (under authority of the Legislative branch of the government) supercedes a property owner's wishes and says a tenant can have a dish in their exclusive-use area (ie., patio) basically allows me to leave the decision up to the tenant. I could tell the property manager to F-off at that point if the customer wants it done. If the manager comes on to the patio to block me, the tenant has rights to make the manager leave his leasehold apartment. He can call the police and have them kick the manager out of the apartment unit and other parts under the tenant's lease. It's called the right of quiet enjoyment and tenants have the right to not have managers screwing with the portion of the property they have under lease. I have seen managers arrested by police after trespassing on a tenant's patio following a trespass warning from earlier. As far as police intervening with the install, they would just advise the manager that its a civil issue for the courts not police. Now, if the manager wants to start cutting wires, etc., then its a case of vandalism and the police will handle that.

 

[dishcomm]

I leave it up to the tenant, after all, they're the one hiring not the property manager. FCC law, which (under authority of the Legislative branch of the government) supercedes a property owner's wishes and says a tenant can have a dish in their exclusive-use area (ie., patio) basically allows me to leave the decision up to the tenant. I could tell the property manager to F-off at that point if the customer wants it done. If the manager comes on to the patio to block me, the tenant has rights to make the manager leave his leasehold apartment. He can call the police and have them kick the manager out of the apartment unit and other parts under the tenant's lease. It's called the right of quiet enjoyment and tenants have the right to not have managers screwing with the portion of the property they have under lease. I have seen managers arrested by police after trespassing on a tenant's patio following a trespass warning from earlier. As far as police intervening with the install, they would just advise the manager that its a civil issue for the courts not police. Now, if the manager wants to start cutting wires, etc., then its a case of vandalism and the police will handle that.

Ok...Good points..Here's the rub. Under NC and SC rental laws the tennant cannot be held liable. In other words the tennat cannot give permission to do work on the apartment that is not authorized by the owner. That said, if we install without the permission of the owner/mgment company, We can be hald liable. I will not and my employer will not take that risk. Nor will my employer allow me to take that risk..In fact it is a violation of Dish policy to do so.
BTW the owner/ management company is well within their right to have me removed or arrested as a tresspasser if they so desire. In NC if the property is properly posted as "private" or No tresspassing" I am not permitted to enter that property. It cuts both ways.
We have rules in place that are not negotiable vis a vis permission granted/ denied by the owner or his agent.

 

[reallyniceguy]

Your legal rights to dish

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/LLP_Release_Form.pdf



if the landlord has somethign to say about those rules, you can file a complaint with the FCC.

Believe me.. THEY WILL do something about it if your rights are being violated, alot of customers feel as if the landlord is the law.. they are not... I wouldnt move in to someplace where they prohibit me from feeling like im at home..

 

[dishcomm]

Your legal rights to dish

http://www.dishnetwork.com/downloads/pdf/LLP_Release_Form.pdf



if the landlord has somethign to say about those rules, you can file a complaint with the FCC.

Believe me.. THEY WILL do something about it if your rights are being violated, alot of customers feel as if the landlord is the law.. they are not... I wouldnt move in to someplace where they prohibit me from feeling like im at home..

The last sentence in your post sums it up.
Esentially the land owner can call the shots. Within reason. Remember the determination on appearance, aesthetics and potential damage to the property is at the discretion of the owner of the property.
Of course the law( which I agree with for the most part ) says differently.
Yes the tennant can cite chapter and verse to the owner, the FCC regulations. BUt the owner can tell the person installing the system( tech) to get off the property or be faced with arrest for tresspassing.
In the real world very few people will on principle ,hire an attorney to take their landowner/mamangement copmpany to court over this.
Even fewer have the means to afford an attorney.
That is what these property managements are counting on.
They know what the rules are. But they also know we don't live in a perfect world.
And I will point out another very logical possiblilty.
Just suppose for a moment a tennants group filed a class action alwsuit vs an apartment management company ove placement of satellite antennas.
Kniowing full well the ramafications of losing such a suit ,would it not be possible for other management companies to join in the suit as defendants in order to protect their interests?

 

[vegassatellite]

The FCC places the burden of proof on the apartment manager to prove that the installation doesn't meet the FCC guidelines. This means the manager has to hire the attorney, not the tenant. The tenant only has to call the FCC at (888) CALLFCC and complain. The FCC will take up the fight against the landlord on the tenant's behalf. As for filing a petition, you only have to compose a statement describing the situation and you have to mail that to the FCC and serve a copy to the landlord, which is as easy as sending a certified letter to the landlord's address on the lease. No attorney needed for that.

Now, if a landlord were to continue screwing with the tenant after that, the tenant would have a valid case for suing the landlord. It's an easy victory when you have a declaratory ruling from the FCC. The process is as simple as keeping it in small claims court where attorneys usually aren't allowed. Sue for less than the small claims limit in your state and then ask the court that the judgment be applied as a credit on your lease. Free rent for the landlord screwing with you. A smart tenant could even ask that the clause prohibiting dishes be removed from all leases as unenforceable.

How do I know all this? I pushed back.

 

[dishcomm]

The FCC places the burden of proof on the apartment manager to prove that the installation doesn't meet the FCC guidelines. This means the manager has to hire the attorney, not the tenant. The tenant only has to call the FCC at (888) CALLFCC and complain. The FCC will take up the fight against the landlord on the tenant's behalf. As for filing a petition, you only have to compose a statement describing the situation and you have to mail that to the FCC and serve a copy to the landlord, which is as easy as sending a certified letter to the landlord's address on the lease. No attorney needed for that.

Now, if a landlord were to continue screwing with the tenant after that, the tenant would have a valid case for suing the landlord. It's an easy victory when you have a declaratory ruling from the FCC. The process is as simple as keeping it in small claims court where attorneys usually aren't allowed. Sue for less than the small claims limit in your state and then ask the court that the judgment be applied as a credit on your lease. Free rent for the landlord screwing with you. A smart tenant could even ask that the clause prohibiting dishes be removed from all leases as unenforceable.

How do I know all this? I pushed back.

You poushed back..You are on in a million..That's cool. I like it when people fightr city hall and win..
But your case is rarity for sure.
Now realistically how many people do you think are going to go thru all that hassle, time and money?...
The point of this is to illustrate what we as installers and ultimately apartment dwellers have to go thru to achieve our respective goals.
Your situation is a perfect example of that.
I don't care for the crap I have to go thru to get my apartment jobs done. But my hands are tied.
We have to respect the wishes of the property owner. The tennant may have a case as you did. But as a technician I have no standing.

 

[vegassatellite]

You poushed back..You are on in a million..That's cool. I like it when people fightr city hall and win..
But your case is rarity for sure.
Now realistically how many people do you think are going to go thru all that hassle, time and money?...
The point of this is to illustrate what we as installers and ultimately apartment dwellers have to go thru to achieve our respective goals.
Your situation is a perfect example of that.
I don't care for the crap I have to go thru to get my apartment jobs done. But my hands are tied.
We have to respect the wishes of the property owner. The tennant may have a case as you did. But as a technician I have no standing.

I am a tech. I had to fight when putting a system in my own apartment a long time ago when I did have DISH. This was a fight against my landlord. Now, from a tech perspective, I don't do many apartments because my retailers don't care for renters (they move too much to No LOS apartments and charge back). Also, I will comply with legal restrictions such as no holes and I refuse to use flatwire. So, the only apartments I ever do are usually condos and the hole drilling is permitted.

Some people won't fight back, and for them, I feel no pity for the surrendering of their rights. Rights are for people who fight to keep them. I will provide all apartment dwellers a copy of the FCC law so they know they have the upper hand but the fight is theirs. I also tell them about having sued my landlord and winning out the rest of my lease.

I remember one house where the customer was a retained lawyer for a large company. His HOA Pres tried to stop the dish install while I was there. I gave the owner a copy of the FCC law and he told the HOA Pres to take a hike before he emptied their general fund and that he would name the HOA Pres as a defendant as well. There was smoke under that guy's heels when he skedaddled out of there.

Rights are for fighters, but enforcing clauses a landlord knows to be wrong is just begging for trouble. It exposes their assets to liability, a big no-no in the landlord world.

 

[dishcomm]

I am a tech. I had to fight when putting a system in my own apartment a long time ago when I did have DISH. This was a fight against my landlord. Now, from a tech perspective, I don't do many apartments because my retailers don't care for renters (they move too much to No LOS apartments and charge back). Also, I will comply with legal restrictions such as no holes and I refuse to use flatwire. So, the only apartments I ever do are usually condos and the hole drilling is permitted.

Some people won't fight back, and for them, I feel no pity for the surrendering of their rights. Rights are for people who fight to keep them. I will provide all apartment dwellers a copy of the FCC law so they know they have the upper hand but the fight is theirs. I also tell them about having sued my landlord and winning out the rest of my lease.

I remember one house where the customer was a retained lawyer for a large company. His HOA Pres tried to stop the dish install while I was there. I gave the owner a copy of the FCC law and he told the HOA Pres to take a hike before he emptied their general fund and that he would name the HOA Pres as a defendant as well. There was smoke under that guy's heels when he skedaddled out of there.

Rights are for fighters, but enforcing clauses a landlord knows to be wrong is just begging for trouble. It exposes their assets to liability, a big no-no in the landlord world.

As you may have seen ,private property rights are very important to me. HOA's really piss me off.
I have run off HOA members and nosy neighbors with the rules too. I keep copies of them for installs as well as concerned people I am trying to whom I am truying ot sell a sat system.
One was very amusing.. I was in a condo ,actually a town home complex. In a condo, the owner has control of the studs inward to his living space, including his balcony/ patio. In a townhome the owner controls the air above and mud below. This includes the outside of the building that surrounds his living space..Anyway, I had to install the dish in the front of the building due ot LOS and where the builder put the d-mark and the prewire.;..No big deal..Other dishes on the front of the units..Garage roof, on poles beside the building ,etc...SO I am working and this guy pulls up and starts giving me a ration ..I was polite at first. Not wishing for a confrontation, I wished him a good day. My way of ending a conversation( have a nice day)..This guy said he was with the hoa and it apppeared he wasn't going away without a pissing contest. I had none of it.. I pulled a copy of the fact sheet out and handed it to him..He dismissed it like trash....Out comes the owner... all 6ft 3 and about 240lbs ...The hoa guy lit out of there like a jack rabbit on a date. I callled a few weeks later to check it out..Cust never heard form the HOA...LOL!!!!!!