Installer says it can't be installed.....wtf.

[Claude Greiner]

It really depends on the time of day and the type of installation that will determine if a Job is treed out. If the installer shows up 10 minutes to 5pm, its more than likely is going to be called NLOS, than if the installer showed up at 8am.

I find alot of these installers have a personal quote and once they made X amount of money in a given week they simply do not want to work anymore!

Perfect example is the installer who works for my company. There will be weeks where im booked solid, and then I got to hear him complain there is too much work and he will try putting off jobs for the following week and me and him will get into an arguement over it because I want the Jobs installed NOW so I can get paid faster from DISH and so the customer does not call around and find someone else. Then on the weeks where we are not busy, I got to hear that he is not going to make a good check.

The truth is that you take the good with the bad, do the work when your busy and save the extra money you make for the weeks your not as busy!

But getting back to the origional question, what DISH Network and Directv need to start doing is penalizing installers and Regional service providers for Jobs that are NLOS that are later installed by a local dealer or another installer

Just as an example, my local non-completion rate is about 3-5%. When I figure in my national sales, its about 10%.

What the installers do not realize what goes into getting a sale, and how important it is to make sure every single one is installed. Some of these installers do not appreciate the hard work that goes into getting a sale and don't realize what it takes to get another sale to replace it.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I went out and looked at it again. and like it's been said here a few times, if the signal was coming in, in a striaght line, directly to the dish, it'd be blocked, but we know it does not.

I think maybe it was COLD + ICE + FRIDAY + A high roof.....that did me in on this house.

The things that are just a tad strange is in your first post, you said his little spyglass thingie....so I have to assume he had an Inclinometer. Those do not use the offset - they look at directly where the signal comes from. If he really was using it properly, he should know with pretty much certainty....PROVIDED HE DID IT FROM THE LOCATION AND ELEVATION THAT THE DISH WAS TO BE INSTALLED AT.

Now, if he did it from the ground and as you say, the install needed to go on the roof, then as Claude said, he's fat and lazy.

But if it was truly a roof install (as you mention your high roof) and he sighted from the ground, then thats truly laughable.

 

[ZandarKoad]

It is quite useless to 'guess' from the ground if a roof mount will or will not work. You need to get your butt to the exact point of install and do your azmuthing/inclinominating (sweet words) from there.

That is the dumbest statement I think I have seen in a while.

The E* Satellite at 110W is just as high and at the same coordinates in the sky as the D* SATC Satellite at 110W is.

The E* Satellite at 119W is just as high and at the same coordinates in the sky as the D* SATB Satellite at 119W is.

Ever hear of 101? Direct TV may use it, but in my area, Dishnetwork never does. 101 is higher than 110. In my area, we have some single LNB Direct TV dishes that are pointing at JUST 110. With the D500s we've got to point at 110 AND 119. 110 is higher than 119. Therefore I'd agree with the original statement despite the way it's phrased:

"The directv sat is higher than that of the dish network sats for most if not all of the country"

 

[cosmo_kramer]

I'll second the 2nd opinion.

Three years ago this month I had a D* installer drive over 100 miles for my install to tell me he had no LOS because of trees. He spent almost an hour checking out all possible angles, but no go. He suggested waiting until spring, putting the dish on a pole in the backyard where there was LOS and bury the cable. Not for me. I had to send back the equipment.

A few weeks later I called E*, an installer came out and hooked me up with no problem. I have since added HD with a 61.5 dish last fall and couldn't be happier. Well, I do want my HD RSNs....

 

[J3ff]

The things that are just a tad strange is in your first post, you said his little spyglass thingie....so I have to assume he had an Inclinometer. Those do not use the offset - they look at directly where the signal comes from. If he really was using it properly, he should know with pretty much certainty....PROVIDED HE DID IT FROM THE LOCATION AND ELEVATION THAT THE DISH WAS TO BE INSTALLED AT.

Now, if he did it from the ground and as you say, the install needed to go on the roof, then as Claude said, he's fat and lazy.

But if it was truly a roof install (as you mention your high roof) and he sighted from the ground, then thats truly laughable.

He sighted from the ground.......the ladder never left his truck.

 

[dishdude]

I have been installing dish for several years now and have never had a "can't install" situation. guess i am just lucky.

All depends on where you are located too. Here in the Northeast (Pittsburgh, PA) we have a ton of hillss and low look angles. 29 degrees for 119 and 24 degrees for 129 is nothing if you have a hill of trees right in the way.

 

[Van]

That is the dumbest statement I think I have seen in a while.

The E* Satellite at 110W is just as high and at the same coordinates in the sky as the D* SATC Satellite at 110W is.

The E* Satellite at 119W is just as high and at the same coordinates in the sky as the D* SATB Satellite at 119W is.

.

Guess you forgot about the 101 then right? Considering that in the east and midwest the 101 is higher only by way of location of the dish(s) having to look along an eliptical then yes the 101 will be higher than the 110 and 119.

It really depends on the time of day and the type of installation that will determine if a Job is treed out. If the installer shows up 10 minutes to 5pm, its more than likely is going to be called NLOS, than if the installer showed up at 8am.

Definitely true specialy when its bitterly cold out, one thing I hated was showing up to a 2 dish /superdish four room install late in the day on a farm house with no cable but I still put it in.

Perfect example is the installer who works for my company. There will be weeks where im booked solid, and then I got to hear him complain there is too much work and he will try putting off jobs for the following week and me and him will get into an arguement over it because I want the Jobs installed NOW so I can get paid faster from DISH and so the customer does not call around and find someone else. Then on the weeks where we are not busy, I got to hear that he is not going to make a good check.

I enjoyed my job as a dish tech as much as I hated it and didnt mind the workload overtime until the local office's I was working out of mismanaged a new performance plan. For me as long as I got 40 hours a week I was ok with that, I didnt mind it when I had 50 hours either but when it got to where I was working 62 - 68 hours a week ( four day work week ) thats when it got bad. Im not sure what your guy considers "overbooked" but I do agrea with you that its not good to have jobs put off in your instance as compared to it being put off by a dnsc tech.

But getting back to the origional question, what DISH Network and Directv need to start doing is penalizing installers and Regional service providers for Jobs that are NLOS that are later installed by a local dealer or another installer

Its already being done to a degrea with dish atleast on the end of their own people.

What the installers do not realize what goes into getting a sale, and how important it is to make sure every single one is installed. Some of these installers do not appreciate the hard work that goes into getting a sale and don't realize what it takes to get another sale to replace it.

Last I remember from what they told us about the sbc sales dish was getting $630 dollars per install on the bundled sales, this was back in 04 I think so Im sure that it has went up since then if they are even still doing the partnership.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Ever hear of 101? Direct TV may use it, but in my area, Dishnetwork never does. 101 is higher than 110. In my area, we have some single LNB Direct TV dishes that are pointing at JUST 110. With the D500s we've got to point at 110 AND 119. 110 is higher than 119. Therefore I'd agree with the original statement despite the way it's phrased:

"The directv sat is higher than that of the dish network sats for most if not all of the country"

Yes I've heard of it. I know it well.

I also know that E* 101W doesn't have a bird at 101W - but considering even your statement is incorrect, D* does not work with a single dish pointed at 110W, the original statement as it is phrased is still out of whack and subject to much misinterpretation as written. If you compare the E* and D* birds (that can be compared) they are both at the same spot in the sky.

In 2007 (and for essentially the past number of years) a single satellite install is out of date.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

He sighted from the ground.......the ladder never left his truck.

Then his reading was worthless. He didn't want the work.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Guess you forgot about the 101 then right? Considering that in the east and midwest the 101 is higher only by way of location of the dish(s) having to look along an eliptical then yes the 101 will be higher than the 110 and 119.

errr, no

As E* doesn't have a bird at 101W, it can't be compared with a D* bird at 101W can it?

If you want to compare E* and D* birds, they can only be compared at 110W and 119W.

 

[Claude Greiner]

Another thing I should chime in and say is that alot of installers may have an inclinometor but do not know how to be creative and properly use it.

For example, alot of technicians don't think past the box. If your on the roof and can only see 110, but go on the ground and can only see 119, then logic would dictate that you need 2 Dishes.

Its like when I had the fire at my house last year and moved into a rental house in the middle of Tree City. Any Dish installer would have said no way in hell, but the way I got it installed was using a Dish500 on the garage to see 129/119, and then I got a tripod and put it on a 15 foot pole on the top of the house!

But there are other factors involved, you cannot have the inclometor by anything metal, this will include an aluminum ladder, gutters or even as something as small as a wrist watch!

The other thing you got to watch is how you hold it, many times I'll ballance it with just 2 fingers.

But it just takes time to learn how to properly use it!

My installers do not come back with NLOS! They know I will go out and give a 2nd opinion to the customer, and they will know I will make them look like an idiot when they ask me the next day if there was a line of site and I tell the customer that I already did the installation

 

[Dougal40]

Why not get out a dish 300 and your birdog and see what kind of signal you can get just pointing the dish. I've done that many times. Only ever had one NLS in about 7 years!

 

[ZandarKoad]

Yes I've heard of it. I know it well.

I also know that E* 101W doesn't have a bird at 101W - but considering even your statement is incorrect, D* does not work with a single dish pointed at 110W, the original statement as it is phrased is still out of whack and subject to much misinterpretation as written. If you compare the E* and D* birds (that can be compared) they are both at the same spot in the sky.

In 2007 (and for essentially the past number of years) a single satellite install is out of date.

Alright then, all those single LNB direct TV dishes must be hitting 101 then. I know 110 E* is the same bird as 110 D*. So... it doesn't make sense to 'compare' them. They are identical. I'm comparing 101 D* installs to 110 & 119 E* installs. (Yes D* 101 single LNB Dishes are not being installed that way NOW but there are still thousands of D* customers who've got dishes like that.)

My whole point is that there are old D* 101 customers who are switching to E* with 110 and 119. They want the dish put in on the same mast on the roof and assume that since D* worked at that location E* will work there too. Sometimes that is not the case. Usually it does work, but somestimes it won't.

... I see what you're saying about the original statement. I assumed it to mean:

"The Direct TV sat [101] is higher than the Dish Sat [110 and 119]."

But you're right, it could be referring to current installs given the thread context, in which case it would read:

"The Direct TV sat [101, 110, 119] is higher than the Dish Sat [110 and 119]." But if you're compairing the D* triple play we should probably use E* D1000, which is 110, 119, and 129. The only diferences between the two dishes (triple play and D1000) would be 101 and 129. The 101 bird is WAY higher than the 129 bird. My whole point is that it wasn't a stupid statement by Van. That's all.

 

[rcdallas]

Wait a minute, the OP said it was snowy and icy with a keyword of ROOF. Factor in it's going to be dark out soon from the time you have given.

Would you go on the roof under these circumstances? With all this based on the only option for LOS was the roof with the given facts?

Granted I wasn't there, I don't know if there was actually snow and ice on the roof, but I do know that cold shingles make for no traction add the factor of the pitch of the roof, go from there.

Now that I'm on this, I'll goto say if your house smells like crap due to the wife not picking up the dog poo all over the basement floor and you have a dozen kids running around the half naked constantly in my way from doing my job correctly you can bet I'll drive off and not look back. Yeah I've been there and done installs under those conditions with the customer that demands something for nothing. I love it when people move into there new home and don't bother to mention that they don't even have a tv on site and expect the system to be installed and functioning and want to know how to use it before I leave. It's a real kicker when the husband okay's everything during the walk through, then as your ready to walk out the door with your signed paperwork and wife comes home and starts bitching that she doesn't like where the dish was installed, nor that one tv has be on channel 73 or the universal remote will not work with their television set. Next thing you know you get hit with a trouble call. DING!

I have a very high completion rate on all jobs with very low come backs due to failed equipment, but with out a shadow of a doubt NO tv is worth my safety nor your safety.

Inclinometers are easy to use, you just need to know where your birds sit in the sky, to some they don't want to know how to use it simply because it means they'd have to do the job.

Almost all my installs are right on the ground, where they should be to begin with.

I love my job, I take pride in my work and it shows, I'm not pointing anybody out of crowd but take in the whole picture please.

 

[webbydude]

Wait a minute, the OP said it was snowy and icy with a keyword of ROOF. Factor in it's going to be dark out soon from the time you have given.

Would you go on the roof under these circumstances? With all this based on the only option for LOS was the roof with the given facts?

Granted I wasn't there, I don't know if there was actually snow and ice on the roof, but I do know that cold shingles make for no traction add the factor of the pitch of the roof, go from there.

Oh c'mon Rc...the installer is supposed to take unnecessary risks on an icy and snowy roof; thought you knew better than that Maybe a pair of golf cleats should be issued to all installers, when climbing on the icy rooftops is required?

I agree...without knowing the complete story, we're just stuck with what's already posted. It's a snow day...ice on the roof. And the only possible LOS is on the roof. I really can't blame the installer, given THOSE set of facts. I don't know too much about D* 110...but all of the installs I've seen from D* utilize the 101 (sans HD installs, of course). And that baby is a good 5 degrees higher in the sky.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

I know 110 E* is the same bird as 110 D*. So... it doesn't make sense to 'compare' them.

And again, that statement is wrong.

Directv5, Echostar 8 and Echostar10 ARE ALL ACTIVE at 110W. There isnt a single bird there.

Thus all these comebacks continue to be incorrect.

 

[HDTVFanAtic]

Wait a minute, the OP said it was snowy and icy with a keyword of ROOF. Factor in it's going to be dark out soon from the time you have given.

Would you go on the roof under these circumstances? With all this based on the only option for LOS was the roof with the given facts?

Granted I wasn't there, I don't know if there was actually snow and ice on the roof, but I do know that cold shingles make for no traction add the factor of the pitch of the roof, go from there.

Now that I'm on this, I'll goto say if your house smells like crap due to the wife not picking up the dog poo all over the basement floor and you have a dozen kids running around the half naked constantly in my way from doing my job correctly you can bet I'll drive off and not look back. Yeah I've been there and done installs under those conditions with the customer that demands something for nothing. I love it when people move into there new home and don't bother to mention that they don't even have a tv on site and expect the system to be installed and functioning and want to know how to use it before I leave. It's a real kicker when the husband okay's everything during the walk through, then as your ready to walk out the door with your signed paperwork and wife comes home and starts bitching that she doesn't like where the dish was installed, nor that one tv has be on channel 73 or the universal remote will not work with their television set. Next thing you know you get hit with a trouble call. DING!

I have a very high completion rate on all jobs with very low come backs due to failed equipment, but with out a shadow of a doubt NO tv is worth my safety nor your safety.

Inclinometers are easy to use, you just need to know where your birds sit in the sky, to some they don't want to know how to use it simply because it means they'd have to do the job.

Almost all my installs are right on the ground, where they should be to begin with.

I love my job, I take pride in my work and it shows, I'm not pointing anybody out of crowd but take in the whole picture please.

I don't disagree that the installer should not take a chance that will harm himself. The homeowner shouldnt want this either unless they would like to spend the next few years in living hell in the middle of a lawsuit.

However, if the weather makes an install like this impossible on that day, you do not lie to the customer that the trees are in the way.

You reschedule it.

So no matter the cause, if the excuse was trees - it was BS and the installer proved why most despise dealing with them.

 

[J3ff]

Wait a minute, the OP said it was snowy and icy with a keyword of ROOF. Factor in it's going to be dark out soon from the time you have given.

Would you go on the roof under these circumstances? With all this based on the only option for LOS was the roof with the given facts?

Granted I wasn't there, I don't know if there was actually snow and ice on the roof, but I do know that cold shingles make for no traction add the factor of the pitch of the roof, go from there.

Now that I'm on this, I'll goto say if your house smells like crap due to the wife not picking up the dog poo all over the basement floor and you have a dozen kids running around the half naked constantly in my way from doing my job correctly you can bet I'll drive off and not look back. Yeah I've been there and done installs under those conditions with the customer that demands something for nothing. I love it when people move into there new home and don't bother to mention that they don't even have a tv on site and expect the system to be installed and functioning and want to know how to use it before I leave. It's a real kicker when the husband okay's everything during the walk through, then as your ready to walk out the door with your signed paperwork and wife comes home and starts bitching that she doesn't like where the dish was installed, nor that one tv has be on channel 73 or the universal remote will not work with their television set. Next thing you know you get hit with a trouble call. DING!

I have a very high completion rate on all jobs with very low come backs due to failed equipment, but with out a shadow of a doubt NO tv is worth my safety nor your safety.

Inclinometers are easy to use, you just need to know where your birds sit in the sky, to some they don't want to know how to use it simply because it means they'd have to do the job.

Almost all my installs are right on the ground, where they should be to begin with.

I love my job, I take pride in my work and it shows, I'm not pointing anybody out of crowd but take in the whole picture please.

'
it was 8:30 am sat morning......I spent 30 mins just trying to back out of the driveway to get to my other place.....

I also would not have ANY problem if the guy said "Sorry sir your roof is too dangerous today to install on......no big deal.......come back in a week or whatever......but if another guy does come out and say "I dont know what the first guy was talking about, we can do this" that's gonna be a lil frustrating.

 

[ZandarKoad]

And again, that statement is wrong.

Directv5, Echostar 8 and Echostar10 ARE ALL ACTIVE at 110W. There isnt a single bird there.

Thus all these comebacks continue to be incorrect.

My mistake. I assumed that only one satellite was allowed per longitude degree. I assumed they needed a few degrees of space based upon the numbers I was seeing: 101, 110, 119, 121, 129... But now I see that they can be placed much much closer (DirecTV5 is listed as 109.8 while Echostar 8 and 10 are listed as 110.0). All this is besides the point though. It's still accurate to say that Direct TV dishes in the US point higher than Dishnetwork Dishes (for example in Milwaukee WI, DirecTV 1R/4S/8 / AMC 4 at 101.0 has an elevation of 38.66 degrees while AMC 16 / D-TV 7S / EchoStar 7 at 119.0° W has an elevation of 31.38 degrees). WOW, this has been a great learning thread for me! Thanks!

Hehehe, we've got two threads going here...

About climbing on the roof: I've only refused to do an install once based on roof conditions. Try walking on a wet moss covered cedar shake roof. A slope of even 10 degrees will send you sailing. I needed to reach the peak of a dead 45 degree slope. And besides, there's no way I'd drill into cedar shake. Nothing can seal that...

I find that SNOW on a roof actually increases my footing. ICE is a different story.

 

[hillsmi]

You're kidding, right?!

I have been installing dish for several years now and have never had a "can't install" situation. guess i am just lucky.

What is "several years?"

"Several" to most people means anywhere from 3-9.

You mean to say that you have been working most likely 3+ installs per day for 3-9 years, and have NEVER had a NLOS? Come on...not even ONE?

It's like one saying, "I've never brushed my teeth, and yet, I've never had any cavities or needed any dental work."

Where do you install? The middle of the treeless desert?

There's probably not one installer here, either E* or a sub-c who can say this.

I've been installing for 6 months now, and have been to approximately 12+ NLOS jobs.

I'm not calling you a liar, because I don't know you and don't know where you work, but it really seems like such an exagerated statement, especially for as long as you've been installing.

How many other installers can make this claim?