Input on New Feature Development for GEOSATpro Receivers

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Thank you for your supportive comments!

I am looking for input from they guys that have been and are on the front lines, of FTA. Most of us never get the opportunity to participate in a focus group for our favorite product or hobby. Wrap some big brains around a challenge and see what can happen!


IMO we ARE the frontlines! And what we NEED are more Azboxes, Vantages, Pansat 9200's. We can make them work, but we need the HARDWARE. I am looking at my buying my THIRD DVB-S2 capable receiver very soon, and it won't be from A Gold Sponsor, because y'all don't sell the product!

After a small initial struggle, a new user, if they like the hobby, will move on very quickly from the basic receiver. I know I did, and a LOT of these guys did too.

I guess what we're trying to tell you, Brian, is that what you want as a dealer and what we want as users are two different things. We as users want advanced hardware, and you want to sell beginners systems. Nothing wrong with that for SURE, expanding your market is the lifeblood of your business and is to be commended, but asking us about a beginner's system is like asking a Ferrari guy about a Yugo. They understand, but they just don't go there. :cool:
 
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stogie5150

I agree, but lets try to help make the equipment better and extend its firmware capabilities. Many companies have different classes of products offered for various markets. In fact, we don't know what the plans are beyond what was revealed above. ;)

To be able to help though, most people would need a better hint on what's actually going on NOW. I'm still standing behind my simple question to an industry insider: why most FTA content providers avoid including PG data with their signal? Yes, WHY? Brainstorming to produce a fruit usually presumes flow of info towards each other, not just in one direction. :)
 
I'm still standing behind my simple question to an industry insider: why most FTA content providers avoid including PG data with their signal? Yes, WHY? Brainstorming to produce a fruit usually presumes flow of info towards each other, not just in one direction. :)

Because the signals are NOT meant for US! Most everything you watch that isn't on G19 or AMC 4 is NOT meant for direct to home use. They do not see us as a market, and frankly, would probably prefer we didn't exist. And any push to get EPG implemented, IMO, would be a recipe for disaster, i.e. content will get scrambled quicker than you can say WHY? :D

Want EPG? 1-800-DISH or 1-800-directv. :)
 
What about those folks behind G19 and AMC4 channels as you put it? WHY they hide their PG from intended audience they target: us? Yes, WHY? :D :shh
 
Corrado and Stogie 5150, This thread is not about advanced users needs, it is about getting advanced users to comment on their observations about making FTA more accessible for new viewers. The advanced user hobbyist market has to be an extension of an larger market. Currently, the majority of FTA purchases in the North American market are not the high end units that you desire. Your equipment desires are currently extensions of products that are being developed and distributed primarily for theft of service, because that market is the primary source of R&D funding.

GEOSATpro has a unique position in the North American market as we develop for a legitimate service and as more broadcasters transition to newer formats, we will introduce products to meet the needs of the expanding market demands. There is a very small market for the high end units and we cannot justify manufacturing a high end unit only for a niche market without demand for the platform to be mass distributed. We have a high end unit that has been developed, tested and approved for manufacturing. We are seeing an increase in RFPs, so the unit could go into production in the near future, but only a contract and $$$ will start the process. All about a calculated business risk.

Zamar23, EPG distribution requires the broadcaster to document and provide programming content data and to plan playout schedules and submit data at least a month in advance. We find that many FTA broadcasters don't put enough planning into playout and the schedule is often free form.

EPG can be labor intensive to generate, update and maintain. This either requires staff time or contract to the playout service provider. EPG playout requires hardware and bandwidth. If a station is part of a mux, the uplinker must be familiar with the EPG protocol and properly implement.

All of this translates into increased cost for the broadcaster and most do not understand or underestimate the potential of EPG to promote viewership.

Why doesn't EPG widely exist in FTA? Several reasons (many more exist):
  • Content provider does not provide information with program submission.
  • Broadcaster does not have resources to produce or enter data.
  • Broadcaster does not wish to increase distribution cost.
  • Broadcaster does not have a need for the EPG data to be provided. I.E. Not intended for DTH.
  • Broadcaster provides the data directly to rebroadcasters via flat file, data files or IP.
  • Broadcasters distribute EPG through 3rd party provider.
  • Broadcaster includes EPG data in DVB non-compliant form.
  • Uplinker does not promote the service.
  • Uplinker does not own appropriate hardware.
  • Uplinker does not have the knowledge of EPG protocol implementation.
  • Historical lack of common file format.
Thank you guys for your input!

Merry Christmas to all!
 
With all due respect....

You want US to help YOU develop something we don't need or want. Gotcha.

Good luck in your endeavors.
 
I do need and actually want these features implemented. I would be better off at the beginning having a motor setup feature in my STB. When I started FTA journey, I wanted to select all equipment, plan setup and do it myself. And I did - with intense help from 2 leading NA FTA sites and a dozen of others. It took me some time though... ;) And in the process I had to look through myriad of sources far beyond traditional How To list - because that simple list didn't translate into a quality pic on my TV screen. I end up setting a perfect initial motorized Ku-dish for our needs, and I still can't find similar setups on the web, and some "experts" still tell me it won't work. Then I wrote my own "Aiming a motorized dish" Guide that covered a lot more ground then traditional How Tos and manufacturer's Instructions. Looking at all this from today's point, I think I would be better off at the beginning by using some help from a more intelligent STB, and it wouldn't even require additional hardware to implement, just some extra code.

The features offered above look like the first step in such dish setup automation and IMXO are insufficient.

Automation Feature Suggestions:

- Detect equipment performance and assure the user via a Voice prompt and Help picture that all equipment is working properly, and merely the dish position needs further adjustment if signal Q is low. This is usually a major concern for each newbie, when things initially go wrong all the way: my STB, LNBs, Switches, and cables etc. are bad and need replacement;
- Exploit the STB signal S and Q detection capabilities a lot more, calculating during adjustment process signal Q change pattern and required adjustment vector, and continuously guiding the user on required adjustment direction and values;
- Guide the User via voice prompts and relevant Help pictures on a connected TV Set, most home grown self-installers will use anyway, in which up-down & left-right directions and how far to make manual dish position adjustments to locate a due south sat and farthest east and west sats during the setup process;
- For these using an analog Signal Meter instead of a TV set to adjust the dish position, guide the User via the motor's Left - Right Button Lights: blink once the Left Light to rotate the dish with the motor around its pole axis 1 degree or step to the Left (where step value is suggested on-screen), blink twice continuously to move it 1 degree Up, etc. Repeat such blinking signals within a set interval as needed;
- Alternatively, supply a modified low cost analog signal meter with each GeosatPro equipment set (a dish, STB, etc.) with 2 lights performing similar function to motor lights described above. Equip each GeosatPro Dish with vertical position fine tuning screws to make adjustments easier and more accurate for any person;
- On a final stage for a given sat allow the STB to self-adjust the motor shaft position around the manually found one in small increments to fine tune it by measuring and maxing out signal Q;
- Drive the motor to the same sat position via USALS. Based on deviation value btw self-adjusted and USALS positions, auto adjust entered by the User location coordinates in USALS setup, and possibly adjust USALS sat position calc. algorithm to account for motor gear clearances. Advice the User via a Voice prompt to adjust motor clearance if required.



Now, would such features help one to learn more about FTA? Not necessarily. But it would make intake easier for sure instead of placing a Berlin Wall barrier, inducing desire to learn rather then facing concrete frustration. Keeping in mind that most consumers would drop the exercise long before I just started warming out, and call for an installer instead (count your cash and go find one who actually knows motor install), it might not be that bad to have more automation handy. Ask your busy city's neighbor, does he need a self-parking feature in his new car... and be surprised with the answer.

Same goes for a FTA PG, if mastered by someone who understands all intrinsic limitations and consequences of revealing certain PG info. Eventually such service may become legitimate part of FTA business - nothing wrong with it, no hidden feeds revealed. As to installers repeat visits, some of these may be "by design" to upgrade a customer's setup over time, if initial investment sounds too small, and prospects to expend are sensed during the 1st visit.

As to limited market for advanced hardware - I doubt it, given current AZBox plans to approach 100K HD units mark sold in NA next year. No contract though... And the box was developed without piracy money involved, just pursuing new business opportunities and, of course, keeping big pocket South Korean content broadcasters in sight. Main point is to keep the unit price reasonably low - within traditional STB limit - and educate consumer on advantages of using a Multimedia receiver and its vastly improved picture and function capabilities in any entertainment tasks, not just at watching satellite. I don't think, connection to more costly Sat Internet should be required to use advanced STB PG and similar features, since any internet connection would do. If such limitation is pushed onto a user, it would reflect on STB sales due to higher pricing and lower speed of sat internet.
 
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+1, stogie

zamar, the hard part of setting up a motorized dish is mechanical adjustment, IMO. How can the receiver help you do that fundamentally better than written instructions?

I fear commercializing access to content like CB*S Newsp*ath, A*BC Ne*ws Now, The Pa*tient Chan*nel, and ITC channels on DBS satellites will end those content providers tolerance of hobbyists ability to view them.

SatelliteAV, thanks for supporting SatelliteGuys.
 
I don't remember if it's FCC certified or not, but it may not be certifiable in the EU either next year. There are a lot of people complaining on the official forum about a law coming up that says that no device can use more than 1 watt in standby, and the az apparently uses a lot more than that and the company has shown no interest in addressing the issue.
 
I fear commercializing access to (FTA) content... will end those content providers tolerance of hobbyists ability to view them.
Situation with FTA in NA is severely deficient in many ways compare to Europe. In addition to preservation steps, more proactive approaches are long overdue. These are legitimate concerns, but I think the OP is aware of that and realizes how further disappearance of FTA channels will reflect on his own business. In fact, the OP voiced the same concerns in other threads on this forum. Besides, he knows a lot more about the subject matter than other participants of this forum, at least me. ;)
 
;)

zamar, the quotation as attributed to me is inaccurate. The (FTA) modification serves your arguement better. The channels I mentioned are not intended for our consumption, IMO.

I would imagine european FTA channels are more likely intended to be for end users, as opposed to simply being ITC.

That's one of the hurdles that the OP's guide idea, or TP update idea ought to overcome or incorporate.... having legitimate content that is consistent and reliable. How many times have we seen posters give :river :river :river :river emoticons when stuff like TV Land on the DBS provider goes away...?
 
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Sorry that I am stepping on a few toes! Hate to be making any enemies over something that I thought would be of interest to the group. Simply putting a few potential receiver features out in front of some knowledgeable hobbyists for feedback and input on ideas that are meant to minimize or remove entry barriers to FTA. No worries, not trying to pick the collective brain or expertise for financial gain..... :eek:

This thread may not be specifically about the features for the next high end STB that you wish to purchase, but it is an opportunity to provide input and discuss the difficulties that you may have faced as a newbie and devise solutions. It is about sharing your experience and maybe making it better for the next satellite guy!

Thanks for the input and observations to date!

Little off topic, but why should we bother to push the envelope of STB features? ... Future uses of this technology would allow individual satellite guys members to access, share peer to peer or to broadcast via the satellite data stream to other members STBs. How about pushing SatelliteGuys announcements or PMs to your STB message box? Share a channel list with another member. Share GUI themes, all by satellite.... Interesting? These are things that we have in development and could be incorporated in next gen receivers. Yes, these things could be done exclusively via internet, but hey, we are satellite hobbyists (wouldn't it be novel to use satellites for our communications!

Many times through the years we all have read the repeated complaints about not having the attention of a developer or manufacturer. Just thought that satellite guys members might be interested to participate in some of the brainstorming that goes on in private and behind the scenes of receiver and feature development for a current production project. Anyone interested thinking outside of the box for the next generation of satellite guys? Who knows, someday you might look back and be able to say, "Hey, I was part of the brainstorming group that came up with that idea!"

FYI.... If AZ is planning on selling 100K+ units in NA during 2010, it isn't the hobbyist market that is driving the demand. A Google search can reveal market developments that would be capable of providing that level of sales.

:D Peace and Happy Holidays! :D
 
Enemies? I don't see how it's drastic like that.

It was just a misunderstanding, I believe. Perhaps people thought when reading the thread title that new feature development in general could be discussed.
 
askin' the wrong folks:

I'll tell ya who you should be asking about automated tracking...
Members like Dee_Ann, and Linuxman's son!
I know Dee will give you an intelligent review of the process because it's something she wants.
Fred's son might have to be bribed with a new game for his Xbox, 'cause he likely doesn't care.
Both have sufficient knowledge of the parts 'n tools to succeed, though. - :up
(they both may be over-qualified)

You'd better fill all that spare flash storage with lots of help-text and pictures (or drawings, or video with sound!*) to help explain what the user didn't read in the manual!
The biggest impediment to FTA, is learning the lingo.
That is a very important point, so let me say it again:
The biggest impediment to FTA, is learning the lingo!

I don't just mean here on the forum, but on the receiver.
We experienced users take a LOT for granted.
"Oh, just get yourself over to that transponder and scan it."
The newbie's answer is: how?
All those buttons on the remote, and the on-screen menus are a frightening nightmare to many.

Of course you're getting negative and off-topic feedback from the experienced members, here.
We've all paid our dues.
It's like asking the DishNetwork forum how they like DirecTV.
The comment above about the Yugo is right on. - :rolleyes:
Motorizing and tracking are not things we concern ourselves with.


* Yea, you heard it here: help video with sound.
SantAnole
 
Playing Xbox games... Now there's something that's as or more complicated than setting up FTA satellite reception...

Huge learning curve.... have to spend a lot of time just figuring out what to do.... lots of specialized lingo....:D
 
You'd better fill all that spare flash storage with lots of help-text and pictures (or drawings, or video with sound!*) to help explain what the user didn't read in the manual!
The biggest impediment to FTA, is learning the lingo.
That is a very important point, so let me say it again:
The biggest impediment to FTA, is learning the lingo!

I don't just mean here on the forum, but on the receiver.
We experienced users take a LOT for granted.
"Oh, just get yourself over to that transponder and scan it."
The newbie's answer is: how?
All those buttons on the remote, and the on-screen menus are a frightening nightmare to many.

Brian,

I added more suggestions to my early post above.

Great suggestions and discussion starters! Busy day today, but I'll study the possibilities and comment. :up
 
I would like to see greater flexibility in timers, and more timers. It would be nice if when setting a timer one could add a name to it, for when you look at the list of files on the hard drive, you would have a name and not just a channel and time. Also the ability to put re-occuring timer recordings in separate folders to also sort the recordered data.
 
Brian;

What you are trying to do is commendable. I like the "bullet-proof" approach for first time/occaisional installers in easy to understand format. A reciever with the tuner sensitivity of a MercII and the software ease of a Visionsat is an excellent marriage. I've put in my share of FTA systems for folks who are not and don't want to be "techies", they just want to be able to view FTA content. I think a "plug N chug" approach is fitting for this market segment, which is potentially WAY bigger than than the FTA enthusiast group who have "earned their oats". I think your "Easy Button" approach is a great idea.

My input would be for an intuitive channel editor as many birds only have a few "desireable" channels buried in a sea of programming. EPG, although a nice feature is not a show stopper. Fast channel changing is.
 
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