Incandescent phase out - dimmable CFLs?

[navychop]

With incandescent bulbs being phased out, CFLs are the current replacement (now that they've gotten them down pretty close to standard incandescent size). Sure, LEDs are beginning to appear, at decidedly uncheap prices. OLEDs - one day.

So what do you do about dimming circuits? I know some claim that their CFLs are dimmable, but I've discovered it's not so much the bulb - it's the dimmer. Yet I can't find a CFL that really works on a dimmer, and I've bought several. They don't dim much or at all. And don't last long. And cost even more. I know about the claim that dimmers since 1995 should work with dimmable CFLs, and bought one- and it didn't. I called the company that made the dimmer switch and actually talked with a guy who seemed to know the product. His take- CFLs don't really dim, even with modern analog dimmer switches (not digital).

To add salt to the wound, I've seen a CFL dim wonderfully at a local library. The light, fixture and switch were all made in Germany. No brand name. No model numbers. Oddly, they seemed opposed to letting me remove the dimmer switch to look it over! Calling Public Works was an exercise in futility, as was asking the contractor.

I've also discovered that CFLs do not work or do not last long on fixtures that detect motion and daylight. Or with lighted switches. I suppose because there's a small current leakage.

Has anyone had any luck with CFLs on anything other than plain vanilla circuits?

I'd love to put CFLs in my dimmable dining room fixture, ceiling fans and motion detectors.

AND- has anyone tried the new LED light bulbs with standard base? Either for regular use or on a dimmer/motion detector?

 

[HD MM]

I'd be interested in hearing thoughts and opinions on dimmable CFL's too. Half the bulbs in my house are on dimmer switch's, so I don't know what I'd ever do without incandescent's. If it's such a widespread issue, you'd think someone would come out with a workable solution.....

 

[Tyralak]

Possibly CFLs with multiple illumination chambers.

 

[jayn_j]

Well, let me try and get you my limited take on it.

I have never gotten a satisfactory dimmer working on a CFL either. You need to understand that a flourescent bulb needs to work by creating what amounts to an arc path between the two end electrodes. When starting, you need to operate the electrodes as standard incandescent bulbs in order to heat the gas, so that it will arc and ionize. after it starts, the ballast detects the increased current and switches over to using the end filiments as electrodes.

The problem is that this is a very non-linear system. It takes a fair amount of current to establish the arc, and much less to sustain it. There is some difference in the light output as the voltage across the electrodes changes, but not as much as you would hope. Irf you try to drop the voltage too far, the gas loses its ionization and you need to start the process over.

Bottom line is that real dimmable flourescents are not possible. A better solution is the three way bulbs with multiple tubes. It should be practical to do a 4 or even 6 way bulb where each tube had different wattages, and the "dimmer" would switch combinations of these tubes.

Since there needs to be power conditioning in the dimmer anyway, it should be possible to perform the switching via a control signal laid on top of the power, and have it operate like a regular dimmer. However this is going to require co operation between the bulb and dimmer manufacturer. There is an opportunity here.

 

[Van]

CFL's suck on outdoor lighting when its cold so never put one on a motion light if you live anywhere but socal or the keys.

Have you done any searches for German made dimmers? I'd start with German light fixture makers and go from there. I recently saw an led light using the tiny led's about the size of large pin head that covered the surface of a plastic dome about the size of a flood light that emitted a great deal of light. The LED's used are the ones that go into small electronics and unlit look like a clear tiny fuse.

 

[Van]

LED Light Bulb, EvoLux, 100 Watt LED Replacement, LED Replacement Bulb, CFL Light, LED Lamp, LED Bulb, 13 Watt LED, EvoLux LED Product Information

LEDtronics.com - LED, LED Bulb, Light Bulbs, Lamp, Street Light, Energy Saving Lighting, Green Lighting Products

Both have some nice looking LED lighting and the first one has some interesting comparisons.

 

[navychop]

Yes, I've been looking at these. I was hoping somebody might have already tried them. Looks like LEDs are still mostly, but not entirely, for flood light type illumination rather than all around, when you get up to the light equivalent to 60-100 w bulbs.

At around $50-$100/bulb for some of these things, I'd like some reassurance that they'll work with dimmers. Even if I have to replace the dimmers.

I have a 3-way CFL in a lamp. Standard 3 way turn switch, and the light does vary some in output. Not as much as the incandescent variety. So it can be done, just how successfully. This 3 way CFL is a sort of square tube that runs horizontally.

I'm going to have to rebuild that dining room lamp anyway, and I'd gladly rebuild it to work with a dimmable CFL or maybe LED.

 

[Derwin0]

Yes, I've been looking at these. I was hoping somebody might have already tried them. Looks like LEDs are still mostly, but not entirely, for flood light type illumination rather than all around, when you get up to the light equivalent to 60-100 w bulbs.

That's because LED's by their nature are directional. They work great in flood type applications when you can direct each element, but in an all around application they suck. The way the traditional bulb replacements work is that they put a bunch of LED's together with each pointing in a different direction.

Also, the way a dimmable LED works, is that as power is lowered, then different LED's are turned off.
An LED works on 4.5 VDC, there is no way to vary the output, so instead they have to turn some off as the power is varied. That type of circuitry is not cheap, hence the $50 price point.

 

[bhelms]

I've had mixed luck with CFLs and no success with dimming. My issues have been with cold applications as Van mentioned and some that burned-out way too soon (about 1 year of intermittent use). With our cheap electric rates to this point (7-cents/kw-hr, to finally expire at the end of this year with an immediate 35% increase expected) I have been slow to look for alternatives. So I have only a few CFLs in operation at this time, mostly in high-usage locations. The rest of my house is still incandescent or tube fluorescent.

I was expecting to be the first in my circle to jump on the LED lamps, but the high cost has kept me at bay. I'm starting to see the floodlight versions appear in the discount stores so I expect the Evolux types will be soon behind them. Competition and volume will drive the prices down, but probably not to the level of CFLs at least not for quite some time. I am looking for low wattage candelabra replacements as well. What I have found is still in the $20 range, about 4x what I'm willing to pay.

One hold-up I have with LED types in any flavor is the reliability which to me is unproven. The Evolux declares 50K hours. I'm really "from Missouri" on that one! It's not the LEDs themselves that would likely be the problem, but the electronics. All CLFs seem to come from China, and my experience with the reliability of cheap, mass-produced electronics from that country has been dubious at best. So I would expect a similar experience with the LED versions from there as well. (Now maybe if they're coming from Germany...!)

As far as dimming goes, I'll just stick with incandescent for now. I only have a couple (dining room, etc.) The power I "waste" in that application is miniscule. For other applications, 3-way CFLs are OK for me. I'm only using 1 now and it works OK...

 

[navychop]

Interesting stuff from Wiki:

-Cuba exchanged all incandescent light bulbs for CFLs, and banned the sale and import of them in 2005.

-Venezuela phased out incandescent light bulbs in 2005.

-In Argentina, selling and importing incandescent light bulbs will be forbidden starting 31 December 2010.

-In February 2007, Australia enacted a law that will ban most sales of incandescent light bulbs by 2010.

-[In the EU t]he first types of bulbs to be banned are non-clear (frosted) bulbs, these will be phased out completely by September 2009. Also from September 2009 clear bulbs over 100W must be made of more efficient types. This limit will be moved down to lower wattages, and the efficiency levels raised by the end of 2012. Also, the EU has given the target of 2016 to phase out Halogen bulbs, and any bulb available for purchase after the 2016 date must have at least a 'B' energy rating.

-The Finnish parliament has been discussing banning sales of incandescent light bulbs by the beginning of 2011.

-The UK government announced in 2007 that incandescent bulbs would be phased out by 2011.

-California will phase out the use of incandescent bulbs by 2018 ..... The bill aims to establish a minimum standard of twenty-five lumens per watt by 2013 and sixty lumens per watt by 2018. Kinda moot due to the next item:

-[T]he federal government enacted the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 ..... requiring all general-purpose light bulbs that produce 310–2600 lumens of light be 30% more energy efficient (similar to current halogen lamps) than current incandescent bulbs by 2012 to 2014. The efficiency standards will start with 100-watt bulbs in January 2012 and end with 40-watt bulbs in January 2014.....By 2020, a second tier of restrictions would become effective; which requires all general-purpose bulbs to produce at least 45 lumens per watt (similar to current CFLs). Exempt from the Act are reflector "flood", 3-way, candelabra, colored, and other specialty bulbs.

So it's coming. We have plenty time, but I'd rather get ahead of the curve, and be rid of the accursed things beforehand. Of course, I still have several CFLs bought early on that fit very few of my fixtures, so being too quick off the starting line can have it's disadvantages.

Of course, on the other hand, from the New York Times: “There’s a massive misperception that incandescents are going away quickly,” said Chris Calwell, a researcher with Ecos Consulting who studies the bulb market. “There have been more incandescent innovations in the last three years than in the last two decades.”

 

[Derwin0]

but I'd rather get ahead of the curve, and be rid of the accursed things beforehand.

I would replace every incandescent with a CFL in my house if it wasn't for the following reasons:

1) Most of my ceiling fixtures are on dimmers. Dimmable CFL's are crap, plain and simple.
2) Outside flood lights. It gets cold in the winter, and CFL flood lights take time to acheve brightness in cold weather, defeating the purpose of a motion detector flood light.

All my other lights (except for the stove) have been switched to CFL.

 

[durl]

I'm not a fan of CFLs in the house because of mercury dangers.

I'm interested in the advancement of new incandescent technology:

The New York Times > Log In

 

[navychop]

I'm not a fan of CFLs in the house because of mercury dangers.

I'm interested in the advancement of new incandescent technology:

The New York Times > Log In

"Halogena Energy Saver" implies halogen. Run very hot, cause a lot of house fires. I think halogens or any bulbs running that hot should be outlawed as hazards.

 

[jayn_j]

"Halogena Energy Saver" implies halogen. Run very hot, cause a lot of house fires. I think halogens or any bulbs running that hot should be outlawed as hazards.

And in spite of any marketing spin heat equals inefficiency.

 

[wrdavis]

I have replaced many of my wall switches with X-10 remote controlled switches. They turn ON, OFF, dimmable, and automation timer controlled. They don't work with CFL's either. X-10 senses a small current to tell when the local switch on a lamp is changed, so the X-10 can then turn it ON or OFF. I do see X-10 has a new wall switch model that is a relay to operate CFL's. But not dimmable. And the form factor of the relay wall switch prevents its use in multiple switch boxes with normal toggle type wall switches.

 

[digiblur]

I had issues with standard timer light switches on CFL's, I eventually broke down switched to the digital Swylite wall switches. I highly recommend them! I also had the same issue as above with CFL flood lights with the little screw in night/day adapters that I attached to them. The frequency of the light drives that little light sensor nuts! So I threw a Swylite on it instead. Love those things...never turn an outside light off/on again.

One of my ceiling fans has one of those stupid remote controls (don't get me started on that subject)...it also has a dimmer...with those stupid candelabra base bulbs! (argghh... all the new fans have these sockets! arghhh) . I put some CFL's in it and it dimmed it a bit but then after it hit the threshold they shut off, kinda useless. So I swapped them back out for incandescent bulbs. Those are the only incandescent bulbs in my house, except for the microwave and fridge of course. We can stand the color/look of incandescent bulbs anymore. Got spoiled with the 3500K CFLs.

Sorry to get off topic...but I see why ceiling fans all come with those stupid base bulbs now....argghh......http://rosscarter.com/2007/34.html

 

[Van]

And in spite of any marketing spin heat equals inefficiency.

Kinda like coal being clean:rant:

 

[HD MM]

Question of CFL's: Do they sell all sorts of sizes and types? For example, we have a chandelier with candle type bulbs above our kitchen table. When incandescents are phased out, are their CFL's to replace these? BTW, these are on a dimmer too. I hope CFL dimable candle bulbs aren't too much to ask for.

BTW, on a related note, I just found out our local Energy company is giving each customer two 23-watt, warm-white CFL's. The idea is to turn some people onto the new bulbs and educate them of the savings. Thought it was a neat idea...

 

[digiblur]

Yes, those are the stupid candelabra based bulbs they switched over to in ceiling fans to get around the law the government passed. The sell them in two different formats. The typical curly style CFLs with just a smaller base. The other is the curly CFL inside a cosmetic piece of glass shaped like the bulb you have now. The ones I found in the second format take quite a while to "warm" up. They start out very dim! Same typical warm up time you find in a flood CFL.

 

[HD MM]

Yes, those are the stupid candelabra based bulbs they switched over to in ceiling fans to get around the law the government passed. The sell them in two different formats. The typical curly style CFLs with just a smaller base. The other is the curly CFL inside a cosmetic piece of glass shaped like the bulb you have now. The ones I found in the second format take quite a while to "warm" up. They start out very dim! Same typical warm up time you find in a flood CFL.

Great. I'm NOT going to even ask what it would cost to replace 16 of them. Yikes!