How is the HD Directv image quality in US?

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Isn't this what I said in my post ?

Jimbo
I was just clarifying that it was truely really really BAD. That has always scared me about D*. I believe they are in the process of going downhill again. The pizza pan PQ satellite service timeline is a series of mountains and valleys. What scares me is that D* has shown in the past just how little they really care about PQ and the consumer. I think they will let it happen all over again. First it was LIL, then STHD, then HDLIL and RSNHD and PPVHD all in pursuit of more profit at the expense of more national HD channels and PQ. Trust me, the greedy ^&%& will think of something else to rob you of your PQ and bring you back down to the bottom of that mountain while charging you an additional price increase everytime they launch a new sat to give you back the PQ you had to begin with.:rolleyes:
 
I was just clarifying that it was truely really really BAD. That has always scared me about D*. I believe they are in the process of going downhill again. The pizza pan PQ satellite service timeline is a series of mountains and valleys. What scares me is that D* has shown in the past just how little they really care about PQ and the consumer. I think they will let it happen all over again. First it was LIL, then STHD, then HDLIL and RSNHD and PPVHD all in pursuit of more profit at the expense of more national HD channels and PQ. Trust me, the greedy ^&%& will think of something else to rob you of your PQ and bring you back down to the bottom of that mountain while charging you an additional price increase everytime they launch a new sat to give you back the PQ you had to begin with.:rolleyes:

This I can agree with. The balance for Directv between more channels and pq is one that will be ongoing forever and will be the proverbial roller coaster ride. It doesn't "scare" me, why should it? That's the way most companies are run, trying to please everybody instead of focusing on one area and doing it better than anyone else. That's where the really good companies thrive. Unfortunately, Directv AND Dish don't work that way.
 
Well, you are being excessively negative. The picture quality of local channels from Directv really is very good. Is it as good as ota, no. I suspect most would say it is at least nearly the same as ota. To say the differential is significant is simply wrong. BTW, ota is compressed, too.

You're welcome to your own opinion based on your own observations, but I think I get to have my own opinions...:rolleyes:

I can flip between OTA and directv's local representation. The OTA looks better. In some cases, quite a bit better.
 
Yeah I did. I've got a 55", a 65" and a 100" projection setup.

Do I need to go bigger than that?!? ;)

When I first got directv I had a huge 25" set in the bedroom and a whopping 30" set in the living room...

Well, that depends, How good are your EYES ! :D:D:D
 
You're welcome to your own opinion based on your own observations, but I think I get to have my own opinions...:rolleyes:

I can flip between OTA and directv's local representation. The OTA looks better. In some cases, quite a bit better.

I can't comment on this one because I only use the OTA for my locals.
 
Sky in Brasil uses: "The H.264-based solution is powered by: Harmonic's DiviCom Electra 7000 encoders; the ProStream 1000 stream processing platform with DiviTrackIP statistical multiplexing and the NMX Digital Service Manager." Sky Brasil Rolls Out HDTV Service with Harmonic Delivery Architecture :: Satellite Today

DirecTV uses: "Harmonic’s DiviCom Electra 7000 HD H.264 encoders and ProStream 1000 stream processing platform with DiviTrackIP statistical multiplexing solution power DIRECTV’s continued HD expansion." DIRECTV Continues High Definition Channel Expansion With Harmonic’s DiviCom Electra 7000 Encoders TV Pro Gear Professional Broadcasting Blog

Looks like they should be able to get you the same PQ in Brasil as we get in the USA.
 
Sky in Brasil uses: "The H.264-based solution is powered by: Harmonic's DiviCom Electra 7000 encoders; the ProStream 1000 stream processing platform with DiviTrackIP statistical multiplexing and the NMX Digital Service Manager." Sky Brasil Rolls Out HDTV Service with Harmonic Delivery Architecture :: Satellite Today

DirecTV uses: "Harmonic’s DiviCom Electra 7000 HD H.264 encoders and ProStream 1000 stream processing platform with DiviTrackIP statistical multiplexing solution power DIRECTV’s continued HD expansion." DIRECTV Continues High Definition Channel Expansion With Harmonic’s DiviCom Electra 7000 Encoders TV Pro Gear Professional Broadcasting Blog

Looks like they should be able to get you the same PQ in Brasil as we get in the USA.

Sky is a joint-venture of several companies in Brasil. D* is one of them, Liberty was another IIRC.

Good info here. :up
 
You're welcome to your own opinion based on your own observations, but I think I get to have my own opinions...:rolleyes:

I can flip between OTA and directv's local representation. The OTA looks better. In some cases, quite a bit better.

In that case I would suggest that you have something set up wrong. Many of the local ota channels are sharing subchannels which in fact reduces the pq, whereas some of the Directv locals are fed with fiber optics from the station with no sharing. Bottom line, if you think the pq is "quite a bit better", you are lucky if it is, and entitled to think so either way.
 
Nope, I have absolutely nothing set wrong. Its pretty well known that directv converts the signal they get from the stations to mpeg4 and control the bitrate.

I've looked at the bandwidth used in sending shows from an HR20 to a pc and to another HR20. I've also looked at the total bandwidth used when sending the same show that I've captured from an antenna and encoded into mpeg4 with a liberal bitrate from one PC to another.

Most of the directv versions are about 20-30% smaller. Which doesnt surprise me. Theres no way they're sending full bitrate 720p/1080i on all channels all the time.

My directv locals are sent to directv via an antenna. While I doubt its true, the local station folks assure me that nothing would be gained by going to fiber connections.
 
Nope, I have absolutely nothing set wrong. Its pretty well known that directv converts the signal they get from the stations to mpeg4 and control the bitrate.

I've looked at the bandwidth used in sending shows from an HR20 to a pc and to another HR20. I've also looked at the total bandwidth used when sending the same show that I've captured from an antenna and encoded into mpeg4 with a liberal bitrate from one PC to another.

Most of the directv versions are about 20-30% smaller. Which doesnt surprise me. Theres no way they're sending full bitrate 720p/1080i on all channels all the time.

My directv locals are sent to directv via an antenna. While I doubt its true, the local station folks assure me that nothing would be gained by going to fiber connections.

How do you do this type of stuff ?
 
Sky in Brasil uses: "The H.264-based solution is powered by: Harmonic's DiviCom Electra 7000 encoders; the ProStream 1000 stream processing platform with DiviTrackIP statistical multiplexing and the NMX Digital Service Manager." Sky Brasil Rolls Out HDTV Service with Harmonic Delivery Architecture :: Satellite Today

DirecTV uses: "Harmonic’s DiviCom Electra 7000 HD H.264 encoders and ProStream 1000 stream processing platform with DiviTrackIP statistical multiplexing solution power DIRECTV’s continued HD expansion." DIRECTV Continues High Definition Channel Expansion With Harmonic’s DiviCom Electra 7000 Encoders TV Pro Gear Professional Broadcasting Blog

Looks like they should be able to get you the same PQ in Brasil as we get in the USA.

I don't think so. If they are starving for transponder space (just speculation here) they will probably squeeze more channels than we do in US. When I was living in Europe I always thought the picture quality was much better there than here, specially in SD. The reason is clear: They don't have to carry a lot of shopping and religious channels and the movie channels don't rerun the same movie 1000 times a year (that's why we need a lot of HBOs and SHOs to find 1 movie we have not seen). They have less channels and more quality.
 
How do you do this type of stuff ?

I'd like to say its easy, but its rocket science. In fact, since the shuttle astronauts tried to watch a dvd on a computer a few months back and even with NASA's assistance was unable to get it to play, I guess even rocket scientists cant figure out some parts of it!

High def tuner card in my htpc. I dont get all the channels because of a big ridge, but I get a few.

Capture the mpeg 2 stream from the tuner card. Convert the mpeg2 to mpeg4 with a high enough bitrate to maintain the same PQ as the mpeg2 stream. Stream the mpeg4 to a client with media player classic. Use a vista sidebar app to measure network throughput. Compare that to the network throughput used with directv2pc.

While directv may be using the same encoders as Sky, saying they'll produce the same results is like saying two cars both have v-8 engines, so they'll go the same speed.

H.264 encoders have a brazillion options for optimizing picture quality or bandwidth utilization, but unless you're prepared to use a lot of bandwidth you generally have to make compromises. Some will be hard to identify with the naked eye without looking for particular things. Some become quite obvious in high motion scenes, transition scenes, very dark or very light scenes, etc.

These particular encoders have at least 3 different default settings for 1080i. The difference in bandwidth needed for the highest quality of those settings is about 2.5x that of the lowest quality setting.
 
I'd like to say its easy, but its rocket science. In fact, since the shuttle astronauts tried to watch a dvd on a computer a few months back and even with NASA's assistance was unable to get it to play, I guess even rocket scientists cant figure out some parts of it!

High def tuner card in my htpc. I dont get all the channels because of a big ridge, but I get a few.

Capture the mpeg 2 stream from the tuner card. Convert the mpeg2 to mpeg4 with a high enough bitrate to maintain the same PQ as the mpeg2 stream. Stream the mpeg4 to a client with media player classic. Use a vista sidebar app to measure network throughput. Compare that to the network throughput used with directv2pc.

While directv may be using the same encoders as Sky, saying they'll produce the same results is like saying two cars both have v-8 engines, so they'll go the same speed.

H.264 encoders have a brazillion options for optimizing picture quality or bandwidth utilization, but unless you're prepared to use a lot of bandwidth you generally have to make compromises. Some will be hard to identify with the naked eye without looking for particular things. Some become quite obvious in high motion scenes, transition scenes, very dark or very light scenes, etc.

These particular encoders have at least 3 different default settings for 1080i. The difference in bandwidth needed for the highest quality of those settings is about 2.5x that of the lowest quality setting.

So what does that all cost you and do you use this type of stuff for other things outside of this hobby ?
 
Eh, i'm retired so I have plenty of time. Most of this stuff is free software and the hardware is all stuff I get off of the daily 'hot deals'. Figure a hundred bucks worth of hardware on top of a decently fast computer, about 3 weeks of tinkering to figure out how to use the software, and a lot of exasperation when you realize about 3 times a day how ridiculously complicated this stuff is.

I learned a lot of it because I wanted to rip my dvd library and convert it to mpeg4 without losing quality.

The rest of it was learned through boredom and a bit of technical interest in the directv2pc and mrv processes and why they werent always working perfectly.

By the way, for those who still think this opinion to be wrongheaded, looks like the founder of this site recently weighed in on the topic and clearly states that satellite HD isnt as good as terrestrial, and that its gotten less attractive over time.

Who Has The Best HD Picture? - The Satellite Dish | Blog on Multichannel News

"Because of limited satellite spectrum the satellite companies must compress their HD channels. Both Dish Network and DirecTV now use MPEG4 compression. MPEG4 is a more robust technology then the older MPEG2 technology. Dish and DirecTV is now able to fit 6 MPEG4 encoded HD channels in the space where only 2 MPEG2 HD channels use to fit. If you have been a HD satellite customer since the beginning you will notice that the HD quality does not look as good as it did back then. Back when the satellite companies started carrying HD channels they only had 2 or 3 HD channels in their lineup. At that time they were able to dedicate full bandwidth to the HD channels. Now with over 140 HD channels they need to compress them down so that they still look as good as possible with the limited amount of spectrum they have."
 
I don't think so. If they are starving for transponder space (just speculation here) they will probably squeeze more channels than we do in US. When I was living in Europe I always thought the picture quality was much better there than here, specially in SD. The reason is clear: They don't have to carry a lot of shopping and religious channels and the movie channels don't rerun the same movie 1000 times a year (that's why we need a lot of HBOs and SHOs to find 1 movie we have not seen). They have less channels and more quality.

You are neglecting one very simple explanation why the TV in the USA sucked and was much better in the rest of the world in the days of analog. The USA used the NTSC standard while the rest of the sane world was using PAL. :D

Since Sky Brasil <> Sky Europe, I would speculate (and from what I could find) that D* is most likely using the same technology in Brasil and same satellites, for that matter, that they do in the USA.

Also, as an aside, from what I recall, Sky in Europe pretty well is inundated by the same old crap as we have, maybe more so. They carry as many useless channels there as any of the satellite companies here do. My relatives there and friends in the UK seem to drone on and on about how bad the quality is there, plus I have watched the shows there as well. Europe is NOT implementing the switchover to digital as insanely as we did here, not everything is moving on the same date, but HD has been available there as long as it has here.
 
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