How does your switchbox look like?

[AcWxRadar]

I don't remember the owner of switch matrix shown below, but it's certainly something to brag about. Please share your thoughts and arguments about the best switch models you currently use in your system, or would be happy to buy if only..., or plan to get for your incoming system upgrade, and WHY did you pick this particular switch or switch combo? Of course, your very own switchbox photos would be highly appreciated. :up

Labgate's switch array is quite the menagerie! Yep, that would give me a wild dream or two! I have to keep looking at it though.

RADAR

 

[pendragon]

Thanks for the input. So you don't recommend using A/B Switches at all, even of Pico Macom & Steren variety, despite they have a TrueSpec logo, and the company is heavily into pro telecom business? They're marketed by Winegard as well, but for Cable & OTA or no specific applications, but were designed and specked by Pico Macom for Sat TV purposes as well.

I use them occasionally, but it's like playing roulette every time you switch. On the spectrum analyzer, you get something different and unique each time. Yes, I did try the varieties you mention. They are cheap and feel that way.

Regarding motor control, will OTA diplexer's port pass any motor commands? In what freq range they're usually transmitted as required by DiSEqC standard?

You need to get a diplexer that passes power to both ports. This way the DiSEqC commands will appear on both the SAT and OTA ports. DiSEqC is modulated 22 kHz, so it looks like DC to most everything inline.

I take it, WNC 4x8 powered switches provide enough clean amplification eliminating the need for an in-line Amp in above schematics with separate motor control by each receiver? What about Zinwell 6x8 unpowered switches: did they require adding in-line Amps in your application? What in-line Amps makes & models would you recommend for Sat & OTA combined or Sat only applications?

For the most part you want to put amplification as close to the LNB as possible. Because the WNCs have only 4 inputs and 8 outputs and I use all of the latter, it doesn't make sense for me to put them at the dish and run twice as many signal cables plus a power coax. I'd much rather they had no amplification. Nevertheless I do use amps at the dishes and the WNCs don't have any issues with hot feeds. Other people may actually like the options they provide.

There are a lot of losses in the long cable runs to some of the dishes and all of the switches I have in my matrix. Pretty much everything is amplified at the dishes, and when I've checked CNR with the spectrum analyzer, I get exactly the same results plugging directly into the LNB as at any of the wall plates. I'm not surprised as theory agrees with practice. The one exception to amplification are my Sadoun bandstacked LNBs. The toroids on which they are mounted are very close to my switch matrix to reduce cabling. The Sadoun LNBs have a lot of gain and saturate something if I insert an amplifier. It could be the amplifiers or the Zinwell 6x8s, but I can't say which because I haven't had a chance to do any testing.

I use both Channel Master 5231IFD and JVI 20-TR13LA dual amps for satellites. The latter is available at quite a reasonable price from Sadoun. The CMs are excellent units and I have never saturated them. The JVIs are pretty clean, too, but there have been a few cases where they have been overloaded by a hot LNB/dish on a loud bird, and they are a wee bit noisier with low output LNBs. I use CMs for all the BUDs and difficult cases. The JVIs work fine with the Dish Network bandstacked LNBs on the toroids, which saves a bit of dosh. For the moment the JVIs are bypassed for the Sadoun bandstacked LNBs, but I expect I just need to insert a few dB of attenuation to get this to work. I ran out of power passing pads and I should have these back 'in-stock' early next week.

There is still one possible gotcha in the grand scheme of things. At the moment I'm still using a WNC amp that is shared between my 3.2m orthomode feed, which is VERY hot, and a couple of bandstacked LNBs on the toroids. The 3.2m works perfectly, although the bandstacked LNBs are rolled off at the top end of the spectrum. I am planning to replace this with a Zinwell 6x8, and this is the primary reason I need to verify whether it could be saturated by a hot feed.

In terms of OTA amplifiers, the Channel Master 7777 and 7778 amps are pretty much the gold standard. I had to pad the input on mine by 3 dB on the UHF side, but that one amp provides enough gain to drive multiple 8-way splitters and feed every contraption in the house that wants FM, VHF and/or UHF. The cabling for this is completely independent of the satellite paths, mostly because I installed it many years ago. I'm sure I could diplex it without any problems, but I've pulled so many coax cables through the walls that they are probably supporting the roof more than the studs.

 

[zamar23]

I've pulled so many coax cables through the walls that they are probably supporting the roof more than the studs.

I like that. The only problem I have with this approach is my target outside wall is 40cm thick brick and concrete. Nothing special, but multiply it by a number of coax runs, and you get a pretty disturbing for neighbors and quite laborious picture.

Happy New Year!

 

[VO1ONE]

My switch setup isn't so complicated, but with a new Dish PVR on its way I'm going to have to make some modifications. I have a motorized100cm dish with an Invacom Linear/Circular LNB and a 80cm pointed at 110/119 with two dual LNBs (NOT Twin). The left of my diagram shows how I have two diseqc switches (one not totally utilized) to supply my two FTA boxes with both dishes (for 110/119 I just get NASA and whatever else they put ITC at any given time) and then I use an SW21 to feed my old Dish 2700 box. The right side of my diagram shows what I plan on doing. It will fully utilize both 1x4 diseqcs and give me the two feeds I need for the PVR. Question is... will it work? I'm concerned that between the two multiswitches, the diseqc switches, the sw21s and the LNBs that all that might take up too much current. If this won't work I'm thinking about ditching the idea of sending 110/119 circular to the FTA boxes since there's hardly anything ITC there anyway. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks!

 

[zamar23]

Pendragon:

Did you mean Channel Master CM-5213IFD model shown below? It doesn't seem to cover complete band stack LNB spectrum. How does a saturated amp usually manifest itself?

Pansat DiSEqC 4x1 Wideband Switch looks cool. What power passing on both ports Diplexer quality makes & models would you suggest? Also you mentioned Power Pads - what variety? What coax cable make do you prefer to decrease losses - or it doesn't matter much when using in-line amps? Do you use Power Inserters or run separate power cables in your setup, and why?

Any particular models of commercial mechanical coax A/B & A/B/C switches with advanced specs, one can look at on the web?

Since linuxman appears to be "on vacation", can you comment on connecting 1 LNB port to 2 multiswitch ports as shown on his schematics above: what this can possibly be done for, any advantages & issues with such setup?

P.S. Since Iceberg mentioned that Switch Matrix in the 1st post belongs to labgate, I wanted to add a link to his website, which contains various switch schematics among other sat info.
Also added pic of PerfectVision Power Passing Diplexer PVDP-2PP suggested below.

 

[Mr Tony]

Linuxman is using dual output LNB's for everything so he can access any of the LNB's in his heckuva setup. I helped him a while back with how some of the switches work and he drew up what he posted above.

 

[pendragon]

Did you mean Channel Master CM-5213IFD model shown below? It doesn't seem to cover complete band stack LNB spectrum. How does a saturated amp usually manifest itself?

Yup, that's it. These are rated from 950-2150 MHz which covers all FTA bandstacked LNBs I've run into. My measurements verify this performance. Saturation isn't always obvious without test equipment, but you can normally assume that when the SQ of a strong TP goes down when inserting an amp, something in the signal path is saturating (not necessarily the amp).

I'm not a big fan of cut-and-try testing, although I sometimes fall prey to it myself. It's normally better to work this all out on paper or spreadsheet, but the problem for most people is you need a few accurate, absolute measurement to calibrate the calculations. I've got the test equipment, so this is no big deal for me. It would be nice for others to have a more affordable alternative. I don't know if the BLSA can make accurate, absolute measurements, but if so that could be useful. On the other hand many PC tuners can do this very well, but the information is rarely available in a GUI. As part of my blindscanning efforts on Linux, I may whip something together that mimics a BLSA with an unmodified PC tuner. I don't personally need it, but it looks fairly easy to do. This would give absolute signal level measurements to about 1-2 dB, which is plenty accurate for this purpose.

Pansat DiSEqC 4x1 Wideband Switch looks cool. What power passing on both ports Diplexer quality makes & models would you suggest? Also you mentioned Power Pads - what variety?

I'm using Perfect Vision PVDP-2PP diplexers whenever I want to separate out DiSEqC commands. The power passing attenuators are made by Holland and are the higher rated version. I don't think most people would notice any difference with the lower rated variety, though.

What coax cable make do you prefer to decrease losses - or it doesn't matter much when using in-line amps? Do you use Power Inserters or run separate power cables in your setup, and why?

For the lengths I run, plain old RG-6 works fine and saves money. I know from professional experience that the benefits more expensive cables provide are easily eclipsed with proper signal conditioning, normally at lower cost.

Any particular models of commercial mechanical coax A/B & A/B/C switches with advanced specs, one can look at on the web?

I would start with the usual suspects for commercial electronic parts - Newark, Mouser, Allied. They might not have exactly what you want, but this will usually point you at the right manufacturer's websites. Be prepared for some old-fashioned sticker shock.

Since linuxman appears to be "on vacation", can you comment on connecting 1 LNB port to 2 multiswitch ports as shown on his schematics above: what this can possibly be done for, any advantages & issues with such setup?

This gets both polarizations from a dual output LNB so that any receiver can get whichever it wants. I much prefer bandstacked LNBs because they cut the cabling and switch ports in half. However bandstacked LNBs are often substandard, which is why I have been spending a lot of time working out mods for Ku-band. For C-band I can live with the extra cabling because the ortho feeds and quality LNBs are really worth it to me (I also have far fewer feed positions than on Ku).

 

[zamar23]

Anole:

Looking at your FAQ thread Switch Setup Simplified, can you address a couple of obvious questions (possibly here), any newbie would definitely ask:

- What DiSEqC standard support ability if any is required from a sat STB to control a 4x8 Multiswitch directly, and/or via a regular DiSEqC 4x1 or Ecoda 22 KHz switch? I.e., should the STB support DiSEqC 1.1, or have 2 independent DiSEqC switch selection lines in Dish Setup? Or its not needed, since required Multiswitch LNB port will be auto routed to depending on a (being set to scan or switched to) TP polarity and 22 KHz switch setting on Dish Setup screen?

- Will a Multiswitch pass trough any DiSEqC commands? I.e., can one place an Ecoda 22 KHz and/or DiSEqC 4x1 switches after a 4x8 Multiswitch to keep the Multiswitch and its Power Adapter inside the house, and the rest outside closer to LNBs? Any advantages of swapping the switch order, like cutting on a number of Multiswitches?

 

[zamar23]

As part of my blindscanning efforts on Linux, I may whip something together that mimics a BLSA with an unmodified PC tuner. This would give absolute signal level measurements to about 1-2 dB, which is plenty accurate for this purpose.

This sounds like a really great feature to have, and quite unique!

Is it possible to save on coax runs by using (double) Power Inserters to add power to an LNB coax line inside the house and separate it outside next to a WNC switch or similar device requiring higher power or voltage than the LNB? Or do you prefer to run separate power cables in your setup, and why?

I take it, you don't use simple sat signal splitters at all in your setup due to expected signal loss, even if various STBs will work only one at a time? If you do, what makes & models are the best?

 

[guapoharry]

I'm having trouble identifying some of the stuff on that first setup. Namely, the units labeled "H" and "J"

Here's what it appears the rest of that stuff is:

A SW64 - have one of these but not the powersupply for it - (24V, or what) Good for FTA?
B SW34 - ditto - good for anything besides DN?
C 4x8 multiswitch
D 3x4 multiswitch
E 3x4 multiswitch
F 3x4 multiswitch
G 4x1 DiSEqC
H ?
J ?


Anyone?

 

[Mr Tony]

H is a 3x8 multiswitch
J is a 8x1 diseqc (Vantage model)

 

[Mr Tony]

- Will a Multiswitch pass trough hany DiSEqC commands? I.e., can one place an Ecoda 22 KHz and/or DiSEqC 4x1 switches after a 4x8 Multiswitch to keep the Multiswitch and its Power Adapter inside the house, and the rest outside closer to LNBs? Any advantages of swapping the switch order, like cutting on a number of Multiswitches?

no

The 4x8 has to be first (closest to LNB's) then the other switches

receiver-----diseqc------multiswitch-----LNB (as example)

I tired to use a diseqc switch after a multiswitch and it did not work. The multiswitch nukes all Diseqc commands.

 

[dodge]

This is my old switchbox.

I could accommodate up to eight fixed point sats feeding two independent receivers. The bottom left connection was used for a motorized connection for a time, instead of a fixed point sat. (Yes, this can be done with certain receivers and switch combinations - although not a recommended practice).

Although it is still fully functional, I am exclusively utilizing my motorized dish on a separate cable. The enclosure is a Thompson box that has a sealing gasket for the door. Note the tube of NOVAGARD. Good stuff for cable ends to protect them from moisture, oxidation and corrosion.

Cable entries to the box are all barrel connectors. I bought everything that Rat Shack had in stock twice. Needed 18 for sure.

It is simplistic, but served its purpose well and I think I did a nice job of laying it out to be "serviceable friendly" in a well confined space.

RADAR

Nice job mounting the box with the 80-20

 

[pendragon]

What DiSEqC standard support ability if any is required from a sat STB to control a 4x8 Multiswitch directly, and/or via a regular DiSEqC 4x1 or Ecoda 22 KHz switch?

A 4x8 uses only voltage (18/13V) and 22 kHz tones (on/off) to control its selections. A 22 kHz switch uses only the tones. I expect all current FTA tuners support these functions. DiSEqC 1.0 support is required for most 4x1 switches, and DiSEqC 1.1 for 8x1 switches and above.

Will a Multiswitch pass any DiSEqC commands? I.e., can one place an Ecoda 22 KHz and/or DiSEqC 4x1 switches after a 4x8 Multiswitch to keep the Multiswitch and its Power Adapter inside the house, and the rest outside closer to LNBs? Any advantages of swapping the switch order, like cutting on a number of Multiswitches?

Multiswitches by their very nature do not generally pass DiSEqC commands. The ones I have opened appear to regenerate the 22 kHz tone on the 22 kHz output ports. Remember, the primary purpose of a multiswitch is to feed multiple tuners, while 4x1, 8x1 and 22 kHz switches can only feed one. This pretty much forces the order in the cabling.

Is it possible to save on coax runs by using (double) Power Inserters to add power to an LNB coax line inside the house and separate it outside next to a WNC switch or similar device requiring higher power or voltage than the LNB? Or do you prefer to run separate power cables in your setup, and why?

I suppose one could use power inserters at both ends of the cable, but I don't see a lot of value in doing that. It might help in some cases to keep a motor out of the signal path if you want to string only one cable, but there are some gotchas.

Cable is cheap and I fashioned several 2" service entrances into the attic where all the cables from dishes go, so I don't have to worry about punching holes every time I want to add another. I have a dedicated +18V power distribution to each dish for several purposes, so I absolutely want to keep this independent of the signal lines. I use this to power my signal meter and any home brew gadgets I might be using at the dishes, and it also is used to drive DiSEqC motor(s) of which I currently only one. The DiSEqC motor also has a dedicated line for commanding because I house all my switches in the attic.

I take it, you don't use simple sat signal splitters at all in your setup due to expected signal loss, even if various STBs will work only one at a time?

I currently have around a dozen receivers, of which eight are wired to the outputs of my 44x8 matrix. Any receiver can connect to any LNB/polarization independently and there are often several on at a time each doing their own thing. I have no problem with splitters, but a 4x8 switch is a lot cleaner and cheaper than having four 8-way splitters and eight 4x1 switches, to say nothing of the fact that I need the 4x1s elsewhere to get up to the number of inputs I want to support. While I only have 44 inputs currently, the design is such that I could expand to 128 inputs by adding additional subpanels.

I have contemplated expanding the switch matrix to 16 independent outputs, and that would require a 2-way splitter for each input. That wouldn't cause any loss issues as everything has an amp, but I might have to tweak the attenuators I have installed. There are cases where I wanted to have more than 8 outputs, but for the time being I think I can handle these with a few dedicated paths. The extra ones are primarily for testing and prototyping anyway.

 

[zamar23]

Multiswitches by their very nature do not generally pass DiSEqC commands. The ones I have opened appear to regenerate the 22 kHz tone on the 22 kHz output ports. Remember, the primary purpose of a multiswitch is to feed multiple tuners, while 4x1, 8x1 and 22 kHz switches can only feed one. This pretty much forces the order in the cabling.

I don't see why a Multiswitch should generally determine the cabling sequence. Certainly sounds like the next promising design project for one of the site's sponsors, putting them ahead of competitors due to prospective decrease in number of costly Multiswitches required for a typical multi-feed & multi-receiver project.

I wonder if a typical 4x8 Multiswitch mod is feasible to make it pass DiSEqC 1.0 commands through its 22 KHz internal switch to LNB ports to allow increase number of connected LNBs via attached DiSEqC 4x1 switches?

Do you prefer any particular sat signal splitter makes & models and why?

 

[zamar23]

Construction wise, when installing 2" service entrances to pass cable into the house, what are the industry approved solutions of thermal insulation of such entry to leave cold outside? I assume, we're talking about 2" round plastic tubes? Anyone wants to share, what kind of power hammer and tool can do a hole for such tube in a 40 cm thick concrete wall?

Also, in case one must run multiple coax cables across an entrance door on the floor, what is the best (nice looking, blending well, light and rigid enough, not too high, safe to walk on profile, low cost) protective tube type to put them through? Home Depot doesn't seem to offer good choice for that beyond ugly enough aluminum tubes. Of course, such solution is more suitable for multi-dwelling condo type buildings, where running coax inside the walls or multiple coax runs around the doors is not an option.

 

[Anole]

Anole:

Looking at your FAQ thread Switch Setup Simplified, can you address a couple of obvious questions (possibly here), any newbie would definitely ask:

I believe Iceberg and Pendragon covered these matters quite eloquently, above.

The Switches Simplified FAQ offers some recommended working designs for the inexperienced.
It's not a college course in designing switching matrices.
It is in fact, simplified and very much for the beginner!

Members who need fancier switching beyond the above FAQ, are probably advanced hobbyists who've learned the basics over the years, and eventually added more dishes than they have fingers. -

Iceberg mastered a T-90 and documented it here on the forum.
Reading his exploits was the basis for a heck of an education, couple of years ago.

Linuxman has a roof-full of BUDs 'n little dishes, that would put most TV stations to shame.
He's repeatedly added multi-LNB Ku dishes, and more recently a 6' dish full of Ku's.
His switch matrix feeds three or four receivers and was a pleasure to read about as he built it up.

Labgate you know. That was his switch board you posted, apparently.
He hasn't been around much lately , so I forget what all he's got, but it's a yard-full, that's for sure!

One of our members in Florida, JerryT, came up with some outstanding ideas using bandstacked LNBs on a T-90.
We've had a number of good discussions on his ideas of switching.
Due to his use of PCI tuners, his way of allocating LNBs to multiswitches is easily supported.
Doing the same on most STB's would be more troublesome.

Pendragon has discussed his setup in other threads.
It's quite elaborate.

So, if you want to see what the big dogs have done, search for major threads by any of the above, and get a brain-full.
For most of the rest of us, with a few dishes, the simple ideas are reliable and inexpensive.

Oh, and one parting thought.
We document what the existing products will do for us.
Re-designing them to meet our expectations or wishes isn't immediately productive.
As an example, there are at least three 8x1 diseqc switches we've documented.
One works quite well.
See the Review Department, but here's a clue: the DigiWave.

 

[pendragon]

I don't see why a Multiswitch should generally determine the cabling sequence. Certainly sounds like the next promising design project for one of the site's sponsors, putting them ahead of competitors due to prospective decrease in number of costly Multiswitches required for a typical multi-feed & multi-receiver project.

I wonder if a typical 4x8 Multiswitch mod is feasible to make it pass DiSEqC 1.0 signals to its Out ports to allow increase number of connected LNBs via 4x1 switches?

I think Anole summed up things up pretty well, but I would add that we have 4x8 multiswitches primarily thanks to DirecTV and DiSEqC switches thanks to FTA suppliers. It's great we can mix and match, and we have to be grateful for this serendipity. Because of surplus DTV multiswitches, we can get them at ridiculously low prices.

Also, it's not just that 4x8s won't pass DiSEqC commands. If you work out the solutions on paper you'll find the cabling order that works is the only logical way of feeding multiple receivers. On the other hand, if you only have one receiver, a multiswitch doesn't make a lot of sense.

I've always thought a multiswitch that understands DiSEqC would be wonderful, because it's part of the spec. A 16xN DiSEqC 1.0 multiswitch could be built, or even more for DiSEqC 1.1. But it would likely be unreasonably expensive. The current solutions are fine and really put a negligible set of constraints on system design.

Do you prefer any particular sat signal splitter makes & models and why?

I have splitters inline for our OTA system, but other than oddball testing setups I have no permanently installed splitters for FTA. The Perfect Vision splitters I have measure fine, but so do a lot of others. Sonora tends to publish very comprehensive specs for their devices if that is of any attraction. Taps are a completely different story. I have one for every LNB output.

Construction wise, when installing 2" service entrances to pass cable into the house, what are the industry approved solutions of thermal insulation of such entry to leave cold outside? I assume, we're talking about 2" round plastic tubes? Anyone wants to share, what kind of power hammer and tool can do a hole for such tube in a 40 cm thick concrete wall?

The plastic conduit is called 2", but the OD is 2.375". My attic is ventilated to the outside so there is no point in sealing the service entrances into it. I originally installed the switching on the outside, but it looked awful and wasn't much fun to troubleshoot in blinding snowstorms. I think the switches like the more moderate climate in the attic, too. If you have to bore into a heated room, there are a lot of weather stripping products and foam sealants that should do the job. I haven't had to drill into concrete for service entrances, but this a pretty common operation. There are concrete hole saws that should handle this in their sleep. Check your friendly tool rental source.

Also, in case one must run multiple coax cables across an entrance door on the floor, what is the best (nice looking, blending well, light and rigid enough, not too high, safe to walk on profile, low cost) protective tube type to put them through? Home Depot doesn't seem to offer good choice for that beyond ugly enough aluminum tubes. Of course, such solution is more suitable for multi-dwelling condo type buildings, where running coax inside the walls or multiple coax runs around the doors is not an option.

Blech. Is this the only option you have?

 

[zamar23]

Anole

If the above poem is addressed to me, thanks a lot! Different people document various things here for different purposes, its not cut and run. Some seek device application explanation, others product specs, troubleshooting tips, or future product design assessment and ideas. I think, Pendragon shown that re-designing existing sat products on the spot can be productive immediately for the very reason that most of them are really basic stuff designed for cost, easy to modify and improve significantly having suitable background. Systemic approach seems to be missing across product lines offered for FTA as opposed to systems designed and installed by major broadcasters. There is nothing wrong in suggesting some clarification of issues that seem to belong in that FAQ, but were missed - like its done on the below Diagrams.

I really like your FAQ on switches, but found also quite useful more comprehensive Wufmanwolf's Switch Discussions and Pictures collection published elsewhere, which I consider an educational "must read" for an FTA beginner and accomplished FTA Pro alike, since it offers a large number of basic, intermediate and advanced switch matrix schematics and other useful switch related info.

Thanks for JerryT hint - I haven't read his Positioner Heart Surgery on adding independent from STB power supply to SG-2100 motor and other interesting stuff before, it may be exactly what the doctor ordered for my 2 SG2100s with a mix of STBs and Sat cards controlling them (see his mod file attached).

As to Digiwave DGS-SW8x1 switch, I don't think it's the best choice for multiple receivers, and my Sonicview 8000HD doesn't like this switch anyway. The STB works great though with EPM-Centauri S8/1PCN-3 (P.168) 8x1 uncommitted switch, but only in a non-motorized system, where such switch can be setup in the STB as (instead of) a motor. I still have a question though: how does your own switch matrix look like?

 

[zamar23]

Pendragon

I agree that modding a multiswitch to pass DiSEqC commands through probably wouldn't be easier than designing a new one. It doesn't make DiSEqC pass through for a multiswitch less desirable though from system standpoint, and it can be cheap to master similar to Ecoda 22 KHz switch solution. There're many Multiswitch products on the market trying to capitalize on major broadcasters' equipment ideas without adding anything to the table. I think they should.

Could you elaborate a bit on having taps for each LNB output. What they're for, and how do you pick a tap to put on a particular LNB output? What tap makes and models you can suggest?

What other options of running multiple coax cables inside a condo come to your mind?

Generally I feel, at times SatGuys have a need to look beyond the "basics". Amazing is, one never knows how to define "basics" term anyway. Is splitter more advanced than a 4x1 switch? Any creative person knows that complex systems consist of basic components. How would one pick some of them to describe, and abandon others, and call it "basics", while still expecting to have a complete enough picture for the beginner to re-create?