How does DISH normally obtain a local station's signal?

[Jon J]

The local PBS station is doing antenna work for the next 10 days and they say only Comcast and U-Verse customers will be able to view the station. Both DISH and DirecTV and most smaller local cable companies will be without. I suppose this means DISH is uplinking an OTA signal, huh?

 

[Miner]

I remember the days of analog locals the dish folks had antennae located in the city, converted the signal to digital an uplinked it to the satellite. I thought it had something to do with retransmission rights and FCC rules.

 

[mdram]

my local abc had a transmitter issue a few weeks ago
dish/directv/ota lost channels for 4 days

cable companies had fiber feeds and didnt lose the signal

 

[dishrich]

In our market they do...DISH has always had it's LRF (local receive facility) located in Decatur.

DirecTV USED to have theirs located at our local FOX affiliate in Springfield, but just very recently moved it to AT&T's CO in Decatur. When this happened, DirecTV dropped TWO of our 3 local PBS stations, because they couldn't receive a satisfactory signal at the new site. One of those stations did return the following week, but the other one is still MIA; supposedly the station is waiting on AT&T to the get signal extended to the new site, as it's supposedly AT&T's responsibility for any added costs, if they move their LRF site.

Also U-verse in our market ALSO gets all our locals via OTA. The same PBS (WSEC-14) that got dropped (& restored) on D*, signs their OTA tower off at 11PM & doesn't come back on until after 8AM, due to state budget cuts; Comcast is the ONLY cable provider here that gets this PBS station 24/7, via a direct feed.

 

[sam_gordon]

It's going to vary by market. They'll either have an OTA receive point or get fiber from each station. More than likely, once they receive the signal, they'll send it via fiber to Direct/Dish head ends.

Time Warner has fiber to all the locals in my market. Dish is all OTA. Direct is fiber from one station, OTA for the rest.

 

[Tampa8]

.... I suppose this means DISH is uplinking an OTA signal, huh?

Well yes, why so hard to believe? It has proven a very reliable way to transmit - so much so they updated stations to digital and now will be updating again.

 

[DishSubLA]

It probably depends upon the DMA. The movement has been from TV Source or common source (such as a main telco switch) and then sent by fiber.

In Los Angeles, I can tell you that a few years ago when a fire was raging on Mt. Wilson and threatened all the TV and radio transmitters (which is just about EVERY TV and radio station in the LA area), along with an astronomy telescope, all the locals (and, yes, I did tune from channel to channel) covering the fire live stated that if the transmitters do burn and go off air, all satellite and cable co subscribers would still continue to receive that TV channel.

In fact, both Dish and DirecTV use a feed from the stations studios (on-air TD output). In some cases in some cities Dish and DirecTV may have their own equipment at the station. In Los Angeles, if someone here knows different, I would think that Dish and DirecTV, and even the cable cos probably take their feed from the main Telco switch at downtown LA that is the hub for all local TV, and their big 4 LA Net operations feeds, and the hub for every important venue from LA Live (Staples & Microsoft Theater), Dolby Theater, Universal (which includes all of local KNBC and NBC net), and on and on. There is fiber from all those major venues through out LA and it all goes to the hub and then routed to where ever it is needed including big 5 net operations for uplink to New York (in the case of ABC, the net uplink originates in LA--really Glendale; or FOX network sports--your local Fox OTA--from LA). Using the hub would seem the most efficient manner to route all the data to Dish and DirecTV DMA uplinks and cable co head-end and could answer why almost every TV station in LA would not black to all sat and cable co subscribers.

I believe "Dancing with the Stars" is sent from CBS TVC at Fairfax District to ABC Net uplink over the hill in Glendale using fiber via the hub at downtown LA. That's how nearly all these studios and venues signals are often sent from here to there. All the venues are already hard wired for it.

 

[Bobby]

It probably depends upon the DMA. The movement has been from TV Source or common source (such as a main telco switch) and then sent by fiber.

In Los Angeles, .....

Let's talk about the San Francisco Bay Area.... Dish gets its locals signals from an OTA antenna that receives signals from the main transmitter location on Sutro Tower. Occasionally, they need to turn off certain antennas on Sutro for
maintenance. At those times the transmissions are sent by the stations to an auxiliary towers located on a different mountain. I have to believe that, if the Mt. Wilson towers feeding Los Angeles were to be shut down for whatever reason that they have a similar scenario....

 

[SamCdbs]

As I understand it, both DISH and DirecTV establish an "LRF" also called a "POP" where it will receive the local signals. It is the responsibility of each station to deliver an acceptable signal to that place. Each station can decide what it wants to do. Based on signal issues and terrain within each market.

DirecTV has a list of its LRFs on its website. Don't see one on DISH's. While the LRF is supposed to work automatically, they often have the thing in one of the TV stations or a radio station or other place where there are tech savvy folks around to reset it if it goes on the blink.

 

[sam_gordon]

It is the responsibility of each station to deliver an acceptable signal to that place. Each station can decide what it wants to do. Based on signal issues and terrain within each market.

At the DirecTV pickup in my market, Direct did all the install for all the receive gear. It's all identical gear*, so I'm pretty comfortable saying the TV stations didn't have much say.

*NOTE: there's one station that is not a "big 4" that made their own arrangements to get content to the pickup location.

 

[SamCdbs]

No, actually the TV stations have 100% responsibility to deliver the signal to the POP, per the law that established the "local into local" in the first place. Now, the stations may have just said for DirecTV to do something as a part of the re-transmission consent deal, but it is the stations' responsibility to deliver the signal.

The way that comes up is that both providers really want the signals for the Big 4, and really CW as well. So they are very willing to work with the stations and would do what is needed. But they really don't want the minor stations, and will hold the line and make them pay for everything.

In my market, the DirecTV POP is in an unstaffed building which houses the studio transmitter link for Fox and ABC (it used to be the Fox station itself before Sinclair illegally bought the Fox station and moved out). Those 2 signals are just taken from the STL. The other 4 stations are on a common plot "antenna farm" 20 miles away and they just pick these up with a regular antenna. The last station, which is Kentucky's statewide PBS, which is unreceivable OTA in that location, they pick up with a DirecTV dish set to pick up the spot beam for Cincinnati locals. We used to get Ohio University's PBS, which is over 80 miles away, but in market, because OU paid for a landline link. But then OU droped the expense and that was that.

I'm not sure but I think the DISH POP in my area is in Iheartradio's (formerly Clear Channel) local set up and I suppose they pay them a little something to watch it and cover the electric.

 

[sam_gordon]

No, actually the TV stations have 100% responsibility to deliver the signal to the POP, per the law that established the "local into local" in the first place. Now, the stations may have just said for DirecTV to do something as a part of the re-transmission consent deal, but it is the stations' responsibility to deliver the signal.

Define "deliver the signal". I'm telling you in my market, Direct installed OTA antennas and receivers for three of the big 4. The other is delivered via fiber. Since all the antennas and receivers are identical (and not cheap ones), I'm pretty confident Direct decided on the equipment. The 3/4 are delivering the signal via OTA. Does the law specify the stations need to pay for/provide the equipment to receive the signal?

 

[sam_gordon]

The last station, which is Kentucky's statewide PBS, which is unreceivable OTA in that location, they pick up with a DirecTV dish set to pick up the spot beam for Cincinnati locals.

Wait. This doesn't make sense. If they're using a DirecTV dish to receive the signal, then the LRF for that station is somewhere else. Why would they receive it at "Point A", send it to HQ, uplink it, receive it at "Point B", then send it back to HQ again?

 

[Tampa8]

No, actually the TV stations have 100% responsibility to deliver the signal to the POP, per the law that established the "local into local" in the first place. Now, the stations may have just said for DirecTV to do something as a part of the re-transmission consent deal, but it is the stations' responsibility to deliver the signal.

The way that comes up is that both providers really want the signals for the Big 4, and really CW as well. So they are very willing to work with the stations and would do what is needed. But they really don't want the minor stations, and will hold the line and make them pay for everything....................

.

Define "deliver the signal". I'm telling you in my market, Direct installed OTA antennas and receivers for three of the big 4. The other is delivered via fiber. Since all the antennas and receivers are identical (and not cheap ones), I'm pretty confident Direct decided on the equipment. The 3/4 are delivering the signal via OTA. Does the law specify the stations need to pay for/provide the equipment to receive the signal?

My understanding is not that the affiliate/local has to bear the cost, that isn't the whole concept. I believe they have to bear the cost if they assert the right to be carried.. Could be part of contract negotiations when they do not assert, is sharing in some costs.
In addition and to Sam's point, I believe the obligation is to get the signal to a location designated by the Satellite company, the headend. Once there it appears to me it is cost to that Satellite company not the local.

 

[cpalmer2k]

I think what sam_gordon is referring to is the actual decoders and encoders that Dish/DirecTV uses to receive and configure the local channels at the LRF. They do supply that equipment and it is universally the same. Stations do typically share in the costs of helping setup the LRF, though.

DirecTV's company policy is that they prefer to receive stations that chooses to negotiate under re-transmission consent via fiber if possible. Many agreements I've seen actually make the station responsible for supplying the fiber feed as part of the consent. (These agreements use to show up in the FCC's public files frequently, but it appears most stations keep them confidential now). If the station can't (or won't) supply a fiber feed, or the market is too small to justify the costs, then DirecTV will carry the station (through must carry or re-transmission consent) via an OTA feed if a suitable one can be delivered. I *think* in most markets they still use OTA as a backup as well, in case the fiber feed goes down.

I don't have much background on Dish's system, but I think they tend to rely on OTA feeds more than DirecTV does based on accounts of local channels dropping off in markets here. I've never actually seen a DISH re-transmission agreement.

I've actually seen diagrams of the DirecTV LRF's as part of FCC filings. Typically the older ones have three antennas- one low VHF, one high VHF, and one UHF. Sometimes multiple antennas may be used and in most markets they don't need a low VHF anymore. Some of the old analog era centers still have them though.

 

[cpalmer2k]

Just to add to this.. WBZ in Boston has major transmitter issues right now that have knocked them off the air for both Dish, DirecTV, and many cable companies. So it appears even some of the major markets still rely on OTA.