How can I use a second antenna for a single channel in deep fringe area?

anik

SatelliteGuys Pro
Original poster
Aug 28, 2004
356
2
U.S.A.
I'm trying to gather some information now in preparation for the shutoff of analog stations in February. As background, last year some incompetent tree trimmers managed to destroy our TV antenna, as well as a portion of our roof. Since we had to have the antenna replaced anyway we decided to kick in some bucks and erect a taller tower and get the best deep-fringe antenna that the installer offered (can't remember the model number offhand but I think it is a deep-fringe Winegard model). All of our local stations except one are about 30 to 70 miles away and pretty much in the same direction. The exception is about 20 miles away and puts in a fairly strong signal (so much so that we get clear reception even though the transmitter is at a side angle to the antenna!). This spring we added a Winegard HDP-269 booster, which was the most we dared add given that one relatively close station, plus a low-power repeater that is only a few miles away. The booster did improve reception on all channels.

Two of the weakest stations, which we have been unable to get totally reliably despite our best efforts, are the NBC and CBS affiliates on channels 8 (digital 7) and 3 (digital 2, but will be moving to digital 8 after February. This last one is significant, as you will see). On both of those we can just about count on losing the digital signal for a few seconds a few times during a half hour program. Often when it happens you can hear a plane passing overhead.

There is another CBS affiliate that (according to TVFool) will actually be putting a stronger digital signal into our area after the February transition, when it moves to its current analog channel which is 9. But it is in almost the opposite direction from the other channels (think of it this way, the others are at about the 5 o'clock position from us, this one's at 1 o'clock). I'm wondering if I could put up a separate antenna for that one channel and combine it with the signals from the other channels, without it costing an arm and a leg. Were it not for the fact that the OTHER CBS affiliate is moving to Channel 8, this would be easy - use a single channel Channel Master Join-Tenna to insert the single channel. But there is this note about those:

Note: There is significant attenuation on either side of the channel the JoinTenna is tuned for. We do not recommend using a JoinTenna if you have a channel immediately adjacent.
I even wondered if there is a way to feed the second antenna into something that would convert one channel to another (in other words, convert Channel 9 down to something like channel 6 before feeding it into the system). If you did that BEFORE inserting it onto the feed from the other antenna, it would eliminate all the other potential issues (such as multipath, etc.). But the only piece of equipment I could find that would do that (Pico Macom's DSP806) has such prohibitive cost that you'd have to be a cable operator to afford it, or at least a lot better off than I am.

I should mention that we are feeding two buildings (about 300 feet apart) and at least four TV's from this one tower, so using a separate feed and a switch at each TV is a non-starter for me - I'd do without CBS before I'd resort to that. But I'm wondering if anyone might know of a way to do this that I'm overlooking. For example, something like a Join-Tenna that has a sharper notch, so it doesn't degrade adjacent channels, or maybe a consumer-grade version of the Pico Macom unit (and if none exists, there is something that could be very useful if someone could come up with a consumer-grade unit in the $100 range-all it needs to do is convert one channel from an antenna to another without degrading signal quality, and allow that channel to be inserted into an existing feed. So it would need two inputs, one for the antenna and one or the "feed", be that another antenna or a cable feed or whatever, and then a combined output).

With all the posts I read in various forums about the problem of combining signals from multiple antennas without introducing multipath, or having one antenna cancel out the other, I'm really surprised there isn't a better selection of consumer-grade equipment to handle this. And then there are the folks who want to insert one "local" channel (be it an over-the-air channel or something from an in-home application such as a security camera) into a cable feed into their home, and I am just really surprised that Channel Master or Winegard or some similar company hasn't seen any need to create a unit that meets that need. If you don't need the reliability of a cable headend then I would THINK it should be possible to create such a unit that would sell for $100 or less. You can buy consumer grade Free-To-Air satellite receivers for $150 or less these days, and I have to think that the circuitry in those is far more complicated than the circuitry needed to upshift or downshift one TV channel in frequency. In fact, I'd bet the circuitry in a $50-$60 DTV converter box is more complicated than what would be required for this application. Any thoughts?

One other question: Assuming the other issues can be resolved, anyone know of a relatively inexpensive source for single channel antennas (preferably one cut for channel 9)?
 
The best answer I can give you is wait till March 2009 and see what has settled. Broadcasters are going to be fine tuning their broadcasts for at least a week after the change over. Until the situation stabilizes you honestly won't know what you can receive and not receive.
 
anik, THE best and cheapest way to connect multi antennas is through the "old" 300 ohm wire the ultra low loss type is the best and most difficult to work with. Look at a multi bow-tie UHF antenna the bow-ties are all connected together with short 300 ohm connections. I can tell you there is a difference in 300 ohm signal to wire length. For best performance the wire must be at least about 1.5 feet or longer between wire junctions. Soldering dose make a difference. The only problem with this type of antenna setup is that it throws lots of signal to the receiver and if the AGC or ATSC processor cant handle it you need to get better equipment.
 
What if you used an separate antenna and external set top box to receive CBS?

Feed the HD output of that box to the nearest TV for HD reception and used the channel 3/4 output to add to the distribution to the other sets, but in analog SD format.
 
UHF ANTENNA

I live in Galesburg Michigan and use a cm4228 uhf antenna with 7777 amp.

I can receive

lansing michigan
6 (59)
10 (57)
23(55)
47(38)
53(51)

Grand Rapids
8(7)
17(19)
41(20)

the only problem station is
3(2) which is going to 8 after the change


good luck


John
 
You can actually build an antenna system using seperate antennas for seperate channels or an antenna for a dedicated channel by using channel specific filters.

Meaning if you just connect a bunch of antennas together there are a couple of things that are going to go wrong:

1. Your impedence is going to be wrong.
2. You are going to be adding additional noise from each antenna connected to the line cancelling out any good benefits you may have had with multiple antennas.

I am assuming you want to combine all your channels to one coax.

You can buy channel specific band pass filters for each channel you want to receive. These filters are expensive and will keep from adding noise to your antenna signals.

Blonder tongue make the bandpass filters. Other high end companies make them too.

The cheapest method may be to use a dedicated dtv box for the channel.

You could go with an antenna rotor but if you have multiple tv's this would mess up other tv's when you turned the antenna.
 
Connecting a few antennas together with 300 ohm wire dose not change the impedance if the wire is a continuous line thats why the 300 to 75 ohm transformer should be connected at either ends of the antenna wire line and not in the middle. You can even put a half twist in the line between antennas.
 
Last edited:
What is everyones opinion on the attached info. The signal of the dipoles are not 300 ohms
 

Attachments

  • cm4251_4stack.jpg
    cm4251_4stack.jpg
    366.6 KB · Views: 575
  • cm4251_2stack.jpg
    cm4251_2stack.jpg
    298.7 KB · Views: 476
If anyone is interested there are TWO types of 300 ohm antennas, really! First is the "rabbit ears" (suppose to be 75 ohms) a two wire dipole the other is a folded dipole or even a loop. The two wire dipole is much easier to setup than the folded dipole you will need very important data to match a closed loop antenna. The benefits of the two wire dipole is that you can escalate the antennas sensitivity by dividing the wire.
 
Last edited:
And you will need an industrial strength tower upon which to mount them.

One of those 8 ft parabolic reflectors gets you about +19dB gain so 4 will probably net around +27 dB.

For the effort and cost, they are not worth it.
 
Last edited:
Well, thanks for all the comments, anyway. I was hoping perhaps there was some sort of active combiner that would let you insert a channel (without costing an arm and a leg). Another possibility would be something that would simply downshift the channel frequency. Actually what would be ideal would be something that would take the entire bandwidth from channels 7 through 9 and downshift it to occupy the frequencies assigned to channels 2-4 - the reason being I just saw an updated chart and realized that there's going to be a channel 7 in almost the same direction as the channel 9 I'd like to get (this is actually REALLY bad for us, it means that post transition the only two NBC affiliates that we have any hope of receiving will both be transmitting on Channel 7 and with both be putting almost exactly the same signal strength into our location; fortunately they are in opposite directions but I'm still not sure why or how the FCC screwed up and allowed two high-powered stations to be transmitting on the same frequency at this close of a distance - one will be about 60 miles away and the other between 65 and 70 miles away).

Rotating the antenna would be a great idea IF we were only feeding one TV. There actually is a rotor on it due to the fact that there are no tower-climbers, in our family and I knew the chances of getting in in the right spot before hoisting it up were slim to none, and raising and lowering that tower is not exactly my idea of fun. So we put the rotor on so we could position the antenna for the best signal, but since then it's been left alone (sort of - would you believe that the first time we put it up nobody remembered to completely tighten down the clamps that held down the antenna mast, thus every time we had a stiff wind the antenna turned a little? Which meant we had to lower the tower and raise it again last spring, just to tighten the clamps - that's also when we added the booster. Moral of the story, don't forget to check that everything is properly tightened BEFORE you raise the thing up!)

Guess for now I'll just take boba's advice and wait until February and see what happens. I hope at that point we still have alternative sources for the networks, if you know what I mean. ;)
 
Last edited:
Its strange you should mention this. I have an old cable box lying around somewhere that I picked up like 15 years ago that I used to use for something like that. It basically took the RF signal from whatever input channel it was tuned to and output it to either channel 3 or 4 intact (I modified it to downconvert to channel 2). Something like that might work in your situation, and brand new I think it cost me $40 at my local K-Mart. You may still be able to find them at thrift stores or maybe on Ebay. As an alternate suggestion, maybe an older VCR might accomplish the same thing, as long as you disabled the blue screen.
 
I got an idea that's more affordable. Since you can analog and digital signals on the same line do this:

Leave your existing UHF channels or digital that you are currently receiving alone.
The single channel you want that is off in another direction-

Put the antenna up and use a dedicated digital converter box set on the channel you want.
Use the analog vhf internal modulator to channel 3 or 4.
Take the channel 3 or 4 and run it into a splitter backward meaning a short jumper from the box's channel 3 or 4 output into one leg of the splitter. Your UHF antenna into the other leg of the splitter. Use a good low noise amp to boost the signal just after the splitter and then into your whole house distribution.

Now you can use one cable to receive the analog channel that you inserted from the dedicated digital box and all your tv's in the house (even the new ones)should have analog tuning abilities in addition to digital.

If you are using converter boxes then use the analog pass through feature allowing the vhf modulated signal to pass directly to the tv's tuner. When you turn the box on it will send the converted digitals that you already have.
I hope I don't sound confusing

Existing antenna digitals - into one port of the splitter
Extra antenna for single channel into dedicated digital box>out of box into othe port of splitter>into a pre amp>common coax to other tv's in the house.

That should sort of work for you.
 
Everybody is forgetting a couple of things. First, the OP said he needs to feed this signal to multiple independent apartments. That rules out any form of rotor or upstream converter.

Second, the suggestions for using a cheap tuner to convert to channel 3-4 are still thinking old school. The OP needs to output an ATSC signal. Within a year, there will be no TVs being sold with NTSC tuners. Besides, I would bet that the customers want to receive the HD digital signal for the fancy new TV they have.

I am also going to assume it needs to be cheap. That poses a problem. The correct solution is to use an ATSC tuner and then feed to output into an ATSC or QAM modulator. The equipment exists, but it is currentlyt all in broadcast quality and pricing. It would cost several thousand dollars to get that modulator.

I expect this will change in the next couple of years as the NTSC stuff dies and the need for whole house distribution remains a steady market. I think that right now, you are limited to SD NTSC distribution or a 2 cable solution.
 
The cable box that I used did not detect the analog signal then convert it to another channel. It actually passed the RF through, downconverting whatever was on the input channel to the output channel. This should work for passing an ATSC channel through just as well as what I used it for back in the day. Combine that with the channel inserter that he had planned on using in the original post and that may do the trick.

Another thing that I used for awhile back in my cable days was a block converter that I bought from Radio Shack that took all of the VHF-high cable channels and converted them to UHF to use with a standard non-cable ready TV. There may be a way to use something like that in this situation as well.
 
The ideal thing...

The most ideal way of doing it would be to receive the ATSC, extract the raw data stream, then take that data stream and re-modulate it onto a different ATSC channel. Note I did not say DECODE the data stream, although if any error correction could be applied at this point to reconstitute a damaged data stream (insofar as possible), that would be great.

The next most ideal way would be to do a strict RF frequency upconversion or downconversion, so that the ATSC data stream remains as received off the antenna.

But no, I really would not want to convert the signal to analog and then feed an analog signal downstream - that kind of defeats the whole purpose. And yes, I am trying to do it without spending tons of money on commercial grade equipment. This is not a situation where I'm able to charge anyone or make any money on the service (think family members living on adjacent property!).
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 0, Members: 0, Guests: 0)

Who Read This Thread (Total Members: 1)

Top