Here's my solution to the Turbo HD problem...

[MikeD-C05]

seriously, where does everyone get their sense of entitlement?

hd absolute is getting all the channels it is supposed to get. it was well known it was going to be ending. it was well known dish was going to not add new channels to those grandfathered in. oh, lets not forget....programming subject to change blah blah blah. we all know it. sounds like someone has case of the supposedahs. if you do not like the hd only packages that you can get from dish, then perhaps you should go purchase an hd only pack somewhere else. oh snap, you cant. other companies probably do not have hd only packs as they do not want to deal with the haggling of network owners, who pretty much have the final say on what channel goes into what package. if charlie did pay the amount viacom would probably require to have their new hd channels in a turbo package, it would probably drive the rate up so high it would be pointless. at least you have an option for hd only.

as for the fees, every company has them. direct tv may only have one dvr fee per account, but they got a 4.99 fee per extra tv no matter what. at least dish gives us the opportunity to plug in the phoneline line or broadband. i only got one fee listed on my account, just my extra rec fee. and i have one lousy 7.00 fee for my third television. dda plan covers my dvr fee.

oh, and the comment about dish having to spend money to make money? they are spending money to make money. its called echostar x, xi, and soon to be up xii. these satellites are not free. yes, i know echostar xii was a formerly purchased rainbow sat, but it wasnt free. money was spent to be able to supply more hd. its like you think charlie is santa clause and has a fleet of elves providing slave labor making his satellites, launching them, and also designing and building new receivers such as the vip922.

and when you got the hd install done, wasnt there some money spent by charlie upfront as well? yes you may have a 24 month commit and a large package, but think of the cost of say an install for a 722k 222k to four rooms, ea dish, and the labor and parts put in to install it. even if you did pay an upgrade fee of say 100.00 bucks for a dishintup, that 100.00 bucks doesnt even cover the cost of a dish antenna upgrade. this is all money spent by charlie up front. how is this money not spent to make money?

YOU ARE MISSING THE MAIN POINT.

When I say "spend money to make money" I am not talking about spending the money they spend every day to install people or to launch more satellites. That is the cost of doing business every day. I am talking about spending money to win market place, restore the amount of subs they have now and to win more new subs for the future to GROW the company. If DISH were to allow the $10.00 hd fee to go away this would accomplish all of these problems.

This would mean Charlie would have to transistion from HD as a premium , which they list it as today, to the norm. This would be an investment in the future . Making Charlie and DISH truly a revolutionary in the tv industry. DISH would gain all kinds of publicity and attract potential subs for the FREE hd with any programming packs. He would make his existing HD sub base happy as hell because they would gain a $10.00 rollback on their packs. This is a true sacrifice of easy money that Charlie is getting today charging for hd, but it would pay back 10 fold in his business in the near future.

Will Charlie do this ? No. I already listed my reasons why he won't in the above post. You have to look for the big picture in the business world and for longer than just your present quarter if you are to survive as a company. This why Charlie is penny wise and pound foolish. Directv did invest in more hd and in more advertising ,even in these bad times and guess what? They continue to GROW their business and have great stock prices right now. DISH has lost in customers& stock prices . Charlie won't look long range and think outside of his own little box and because of this , his business will continue to dwindle because of it.

 

[Pen15head]

cox already has free hd for their customers who have hd receivers. they do not any extra charge for their hd programming. and it really hasnt revolutionized anything.

if charlie didnt charge me for my hd programming, he would be taking a 23 precent cut on revenue

250 with free gold/plat = 24% cut in revenue
200 with free silver/plat = 27% cut in revenue
100 with free bronze/ plat = 29% cut in revenue

and here is some more food for thought, if charlie has to pay viacom "X" amount for every subscriber to say mtv-hd, then right now he is only paying that amount per hd subscriber. if all 13 million customers now get hd for free, then viacom is going to require payment per all 13 mill subscribers. so now not only did he lose between 25 to 30 percent revenue from the customers, but his overhead on what he has to pay the channels owners just went through the roof.

i mean, if say 75 people out of the 500 diners in a redlobster on saturday night order the 10.00 lobster tail add on to their entree, and that lobstertail cost them say 4.00 dollars, thats 450.00 dollars profit that redlobster made that night on selling extra tail.

now lets do it your way, and give all 500 diners a free lobster tail with their entree. that 450.00 profit just turned into a $2000.00 loss for the redlobster that night. but the customers didnt care, they loved it. infact, they told everyone they knew that they got a free lobster tail added to their entree. so next week, instead of 500 patrons, redlobster gets 1000 patrons come in. and they all get their lobster tail, and then they lose 4000.00 . evne though they gave the tails away for free, they still had to pay for the tail. and htey also had to pay for the cooks who prepared them, the servers who served them, the dishwashers who washed all the extra dishes from the extra food. oh yeah, and now since the free lobster tail revolutionized the redlobster, the demand gets so high that the current portion of lobstertail isnt enough. now they want more lobster, oh, and they dont want to pay for it. so redlobster has to hire say lockheed martin to build a a bigger fridge with more lobster-width and pay sea launch to deliver that new fridge.

i could go on, but im sure ya'll get the picture.

 

[STL]

seriously, where does everyone get their sense of entitlement?

1) From numerous DISH employees telling potential customers that new HD channels coming in 2009 (that had equivalent SD channels in Classic packages) would be part of the TurboHD packages.
2) From a Charlie Chat itself -- they proclaimed the higher prices increases on TurboHD (that went $10/mo when the equivalent Classic+HD package only increase $3/mo) would be "worth it" because of all the new HD channels coming.
3) From the very way they name the packages (Silver Classic vs. TurboHD Silver).

All of the these together paint a pretty convincing argument -- which might have been Charlie's intent all along (bait-and-switch). I know I'm not the only person they tricked...

 

[joeyjojojnr]

"seriously, where does everyone get their sense of entitlement?"

I think it comes from party a giving money to party b in exchange for a service.

If I give a company money, I expect some sort of fair exchange of services.

Dish could charge the exact same amount of money for the exact same services and have a LOT happier customers if they were just clear, honest and up front about it all.

When a consumer has to WORK to figure out what the hell they are paying for by reading through contracts and fine print and talking to more than one operator, it's only bound to lead to frustrated customers.

 

[Pen15head]

cant you just go to the dishnetwork.com site and look at the packages and prices there?

as for the hd programming, there has been a lot of programming added. and yes, some removed, but voom is a whole different thread. when i first got hd from dish, there was only the 20.00 hd package being offered. prior to this, there was the legacy hd pack for 9.99, but it only gave you a handful of mpeg2 hd channels. in the time i have had my dish hd, we have been offered the choice essential 10.00 pack or ultimate hd for 20.00, since has been replaced with bronze/silver/gold and the ability to add platinum. over the past 2 years, i have watched my hd line up double, for half the original cost i used to pay. even with the loss of voom. and we finally got speed, fx, viacoms, fox news fox bus, spike, sci fi usa. comedy cetnral over the past 18 months, these are the channels that people said they wanted in countless threads. and look at how many dma launches have happened this past year.

the channels charlie said were coming on, did come on. yes, it was a messed up april fools day there, but a week later they were there.

as for getting the new channels on the turbo hd, probably not dishes call. viacom doesnt want viewers to only get their most popular channels and not have to subscribe to their other channels. if a customer wants to watch mtv, viacom says they have a package that has tvland as well. they do this to protect the value of their advertisement space on their channels. if less people subscribed to tv land, then they wouldnt be able to sell the commercial time on for as much money.

by the way, here is the press release announcing the turbo hd packages.
DISH Network - Investor Relations - 1.888.825.2557
i cannot find where any statement shows that every channel offered in the classic bronze with bronze hd would be available on turbobronze or silver or gold. and charlie did keep his word on the charlie chat. he said there would be new channels added to the turbo hd packages, and there were. didnt you get cmt hd , comedy central hd, and spike hd added?

 

[MikeD-C05]

Pen15head we will have to agree to disagree. You are obviously square on the side of DISH no matter what is suggested or said to the contrary. It's almost like I am talking to James Long . But I know that couldn't be true since he supposedly doesn't frequent this board and stays the "super moderator " for the DISH forum at the other dbs website that we will refuse to name .

 

[Laddyboy]

cant you just go to the dishnetwork.com site and look at the packages and prices there?

as for the hd programming, there has been a lot of programming added. and yes, some removed, but voom is a whole different thread. when i first got hd from dish, there was only the 20.00 hd package being offered. prior to this, there was the legacy hd pack for 9.99, but it only gave you a handful of mpeg2 hd channels. in the time i have had my dish hd, we have been offered the choice essential 10.00 pack or ultimate hd for 20.00, since has been replaced with bronze/silver/gold and the ability to add platinum. over the past 2 years, i have watched my hd line up double, for half the original cost i used to pay. even with the loss of voom. and we finally got speed, fx, viacoms, fox news fox bus, spike, sci fi usa. comedy cetnral over the past 18 months, these are the channels that people said they wanted in countless threads. and look at how many dma launches have happened this past year.

the channels charlie said were coming on, did come on. yes, it was a messed up april fools day there, but a week later they were there.

as for getting the new channels on the turbo hd, probably not dishes call. viacom doesnt want viewers to only get their most popular channels and not have to subscribe to their other channels. if a customer wants to watch mtv, viacom says they have a package that has tvland as well. they do this to protect the value of their advertisement space on their channels. if less people subscribed to tv land, then they wouldnt be able to sell the commercial time on for as much money.

by the way, here is the press release announcing the turbo hd packages.
DISH Network - Investor Relations - 1.888.825.2557
i cannot find where any statement shows that every channel offered in the classic bronze with bronze hd would be available on turbobronze or silver or gold. and charlie did keep his word on the charlie chat. he said there would be new channels added to the turbo hd packages, and there were. didnt you get cmt hd , comedy central hd, and spike hd added?

Three channels for the $5 to $10 rate increase when Classic subs got smaller increases and 11 channels? That's a justification? Get real. I know stuff happens and doesn't go according to plan but you're really shoveling some deep doodoo there.

 

[gopherscot]

Three channels for the $5 to $10 rate increase when Classic subs got smaller increases and 11 channels? That's a justification? Get real. I know stuff happens and doesn't go according to plan but you're really shoveling some deep doodoo there.

Dish still has the best hardware, best channel selection (for me), and the best prices. But agree with the above poster that some smart marketing and better communication with their customers could make Dish a much better option than Direct. Don't make promises and then pull the rug out from under your customers. Don't make an all HD plan and then not put in channels needed that DeFranco promised. Dish is still my best option but if Direct ever makes a better HD-DVR and adds a few HD channels (WGN and Travel come to mind) I would probably switch. Rumor is Direct is not adding any HD until the first quarter of 2010. Seems they are sitting tight adding new customers, watching Dish make broken promises, and not adding new HD.

 

[UnSat]

If Dish gives you free hd or free anything else their competitors will follow suit.Dish all ready gives its customers the most advanced equipment in the industry somebody's got to pay for that.
Just take into consideration that Dish can cut its prices to create more business and retain its existing customers but they would have to cut cost to compensate.Quality in customer service,to installation would suffer because everybody else involved with doing business with Dish would have to compensate as well.
People who think they pay too much or should be given FREE HD could write their congressman or women and complain.Enough people complain maybe legislation would be past to regulate,or take over the industry then these people could get their free stuff and have the Gov`t dictate their and everybody Else's programming and viewing habits.Sounds far fetched but.........
People should QUIT WHINING does anybody remember only having 3 VHF and 1 UHF channels to choose from.Get a grip.

 

[MikeD-C05]

YOU are still missing the big picture . I am talking about something that would fix DISH 's problems. Let me see if I can show you the problems that they face. They go bigger than the Turbo hd stand alone customers problems.

1. DISH is losing and has lost subs going on 3 quarters now. With no end in sight. Mostly to DIRECTV , which continues to add subs in record numbers even in a recession.

2. Their stocks are losing any value as the churn continues.

3. IN order to survive all satellite companies depend on adding more subs than they lose in order to continue to not only grow but to Survive long term.

Now I have already showed you that the hd pack fee is an addon "BECAUSE THEY CAN " fee. Just like the hd enabling fee was a "Just because we can fee." Notice that they have dropped this 5.00 fee -was 7.00. Just like the $5.98 dvr fee PER DVR RECEIVER is "just because they can" fee. Just like the $5.00 -no phone connection fee is "Just because they can" fee.


Do you really think that $10.00 fee covers all hd versions of the 45 hd channels you get with the top 250 bonus pack+top 200 pack? Do you really think that the platinum hd pack is worth $10.00? Come on there is only like 7 or 8 channels in that pack and there are 45 channels in hd in that top 200+top 250 bonus pack. So those 7 channels are worth the same as 45 channels? Get realistic here. The hd versions of channels are already negotiated with the regular sd versions of channels.

The Premium movie channels you sub to cost the same whether you have sd or HD , no difference. The local channels you sub to cost the same for sd and Hd , no difference. The price that both DISH and DIRECTV charge are set by them. They have nothing to do with the real cost of the channels. DIRECTV calls them a tech fee for having the hd receiver. DISH calls them an hd pack. Same thing and they both set the price that they are willing to charge.

Now if we assume that the problems that I outlined are real , and they ARE. You have to see about not only keeping your existing sub base , but to regain some of the old base you lost and attract new subs. DISH is starting to advertise they are a better price than DIRECTV for the same channels. What better way to accomplish this then to give the subs something for their money.

I have in the past suggested that they lose the dvr fee or make it a whole account fee like DIRECTV does. I still think this would be a great way to compete , but due to the never ending TIVO lawsuit and appeals process , I don't see DISH doing this till it is resolved once and for all. So I suggest that DISH drop something that they can afford to do , since this is a "just because we can fee", drop it and make their advertising against the competition really revolutionary and ground breaking. FREE HD !


DISH & DIRECTV are national companies with roots in all 50 states, unlike Cox or Time Warner or Comcast cable. DISH being the first in the industry to make HD Free , would be big first that would help bring new subs in droves , make Directv drop their fee also , and help the whole consumer base in the country. It would make hd the norm and no longer a premium at a premium price.

As I stated in earlier posts , DISH added DVR subs in record numbers in the early years of this decade because they charged NO DVR fee and advertised the fact that they didn't charge like the other guys . Now why did the dvr fee suddenly get charged for not only one account, but the each dvr? BECAUSE THEY COULD! No charge for HD and advertise that fact and you will see record numbers again come on board to DISH reversing the trend that threatens to destroy DISH in the long run.

DISH can't compete with DIRECTV on sports -CHARLIE won't pay to have the extra sports packs like NFL sunday ticket and Major League Baseball. So what else differentiates DISH from DIRECTV? The great dvrs and high technology -that might be a non factor if Tivo wins and the injunction to disable the 4 million dvrs goes through. FREE HD would be the edge over the competition that DISH needs to push them over the top in the field . The publicity would be grand if Charlie could add FREE hd at a historical first on DISH's records.

But if all you are looking at is the immediate quarter you are in, or even just this year, then go ahead and continue to do nothing but knock Directv on price and see what happens. We all know that when you add the price for additional receiver/lease fees, dvr fees per dvr receiver etc, DISH becomes higher priced than DIRECTV. Short sightedness is what has lead DISH to lose subs at regular numbers. THey waited to long to add more hd to compete with DIRECTV. DISH now leads in the hd category in national channels -not counting Sports due to Charlie's cheapness and trying to keep the "customer's" cost down. DISH is already winning on price when you compare the basic programming packs between both companies. So this leaves one area where they can not only compete but to slaughter the competition; Cut your "just because you can fees for hd. "

So DISH could do this , or continue to knock DIRECTV on basic price , like they did cable before it, and see where it gets you. IT didn't work against cable because they are now regaining subs they once lost to satellite . It won't work against DIRECTV because they have more sports, better brand recognition in the market, better advertising. So this leaves one place left that they can compete. FREE HD! Or continue to do nothing and see what happens in the next quarter and the next and so on .

 

[Pen15head]

the premium hd channels are negotiated with the owners of the premium channels. thats why they are available.

nothing in life if free. it has to be paid for somehow, someway. if charlie did go ahead and give free hd, then pricing in other places would change. right now, many customers qualify for free hd-dvr upgrades. that offer would probably be gone. anyone remember how much it costed back in the day to upgrade to an 811 or 942 receiver? or even the legacy 6000?

cox gives away free hd. so dish would not be the first. but cox has higher base prices for their programming, because you pay for hd whether you use it or not. also with cox, you pay 14.99 a month for hd-dvr rec, or 9.99 a month for a hd-rec. so, this idea would probably cause higher price increases in the classic packages then 2-3 dollars a month. how many customer would leave if the classic packages when up 5-10 dollars a month? i bet a lot. as now they would not be getting a lower price then they can get elsewhere.

when i take my package and my equip, and compare it to what i pay to directv or to cox for the programming that would meet me needs, dish wins against both of them hands down.

yes, the turbo subscribers did get a raw deal on the price increase. i will admit that. but guess what? dish still has the lowest hd only package out there. well, come to think of it, i guess they have the highest hd only package as well. kinda glass half full half empty kinda deal. i have considered the hd-only packs myself, but my need for several channels has prohibited me at this time.

seems like charlie did attempt to revolutionize hd with the turbo packages, but the position of network owners who might add hd to dish was not foreseen that perhaps they did not want their channels avail on an hd only pack.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Well lets see what happens in August . That is when the turbo stand alone packs are rumored to be done away with according to Scott. Then you will have MORE pissed off Turbo hd stand alone customers -but I am sure that they will be grandfathered like the hd absolute subs were , as long as they don't change their programming. So when these hd stand alone packs are gone , what will DISH have to differentiate them from the competition?

 

[STL]

yes, the turbo subscribers did get a raw deal on the price increase. i will admit that.

We can agree on something then.

 

[Pen15head]

i think i also remember scott even saying that the dish execs didnt evne realize the issue with the turbo channels not going into the turbo pack. i think it was in the team summit thread. from when they had the private meeting. even though seems kinda weird that they wouldnt know that. might have been easier to play dumb and say they will look into it later.

 

[kluken]

and when you got the hd install done, wasnt there some money spent by charlie upfront as well? yes you may have a 24 month commit and a large package, but think of the cost of say an install for a 722k 222k to four rooms, ea dish, and the labor and parts put in to install it. even if you did pay an upgrade fee of say 100.00 bucks for a dishintup, that 100.00 bucks doesnt even cover the cost of a dish antenna upgrade. this is all money spent by charlie up front. how is this money not spent to make money?

I'm not taking sides, but the cable company makes an investment too, theres was more up front to wire entire neighborhoods and then the large maintenance to upkeep all those lines. It is part of the business you have to invesnt in infrastruture to sell a service, for Dish it is individual home infrastruture, but look at cable company, I can get them come out wire mire entire home and next month ditch them, no contracts.

 

[Pen15head]

cable companies also get to use a lot of right aways already in place by existing powerlines and telephone lines. and many local govts are using tax money to pay for new infrastructure improivements such as fiberoptics. and take a look at the stimulus set by obama for broadband build up. think charlie got a break from the govt?

as for the have the cable company come wire up your home part, i know with the cable companies i have dealt with before i used satellite did not give me a house install. they would hook up the any existing cables, and if no existing jacks were in the house, they would wire one tv. anything else was on me, average about 79.00 per room. i actually dug up the the old workorders... adelphia cable was 89.00 per room. time warner charged me 121.93 for 4 room install. on, and dont get me started on cox. they came to my home, which was prewired for 6 outlets throughout the house, all hooked up a central junction box where the cable entered the home. he takes off the existing box with no lock, puts on his own box with a lock, disconnects all the feeds except for the one in the living room where the motopeesacrap dvr box is. before signing off on the w/o, i checked my other tvs in the home, they did not work. i brought to his attention this. thats when i was introduced to his new work. he then told me for a small labor fee he would be more then happy to connect the other tvs. i advised him no worries, i can take care of it myself. he then smuggly said it was a felony to break the into the untility box he installed. i advised him the part was not on the agreed upon w/o, was attached to my home without my permission, and a deinstallation that was unauthorized of working outlets was performed. he went about loading his van, and spent about 20 minutes in the van on his phone. i used the time to take a hammer and deinstall the utility box, then walked up and advised him he left some unneeded parts and tossed the busted box in the van. never heard about it again.

yes, i know there are just as many rotten satellite installers out there as well. but i wonder how many people ended up paying this guy extra money to do crap like that.

but i will admit cable does get screwed as they have a lot of extra regulation. if charlie wants to broadcast all in mpeg4 and require all to have vip receivers, so be it. if a cable company wants to remove some analog channels and put them in a digital tier to make room for more hd channels, they get hell to pay from the fcc. check out FCC wants big fines for cable giants over channel switching - Ars Technica . that explains a lot.

its their damn company, if they want to do away with analog programming, should be their call. i mean, govt made ota channels do it.

either way, far away from actual thread topic now.

 

[MikeD-C05]

Funny, I remember paying $14.99 a month for just the basic programming and for basic cable install to all 4 of my tvs with Time Warner Cable back in 2004. Kept it for about 2 months cancelled and then used it with my DISH receivers when we got the dual tuner dvrs with modulators. THanks TWC.

 

[STL]

Why do away with the TurboHD packages? A fix is in the works, Dish is certainly aware of the upset customer base who are Turbo only.

You have stated in another thread that you are in the employ of DishNetwork. Can you go on record and dispel the current rumor that TURBO HD will end in August?

I'm an AbsoluteHD sub, and would love to change my package, IF, the Turbo packages get the channels they were supposed to get.

DishGuise,
Just in case you missed it -- since you didn't answer it. Or is the "fix" just to make them go away?

DishGuise,
The silence is deafening.

 

[Dah-Henny]

DishGuise responded to my question privately. He could have been Charlie himself AFAIK. I still don't know anything.

 

[STL]

The fact he publicly suggests a fix is on the way, but then refuses to debunk a rumor only makes me think it is more half-truths in attempt to keep stringing people along. Time well tell...