HDTV Setup

[Houston]

Hi Folks,
Am getting a new Wide Scrn HDTV with turner soon, and need to know something about how to set it up, to receive HD OTA "local" stations.
I presently have a UHF/VHF/FM (yagi) Antenna from Radio Shack in the Attic, and receive local (standard) Channels on it.
My understanding is that one needs a "special" HDTV antenna for reception of the HD channels that are availavle OTA, is this right, or can I use my existing OTA antenna.
IF, i need another UHF Antenna ( I think HD is xmitted on UHFbands), how would i combine those two antennas, to receive all the local broadcasts?

 

[fayrich]

No special antenna is required. Give it a try with your present one and take it from there. (There is no such thing as a HDTV antenna. Just VHF, UHF, or combo types). Those being promoted as such are just preying on an uninformed public. Digital stations are available on both the UHF and VHF spectrums. In Cleveland for example, NBC and CBS are both on the VHF frequency. You will have to determine which stations are which in your area and go from there. If most are UHF, and you are having a problem, the Channel Master 4448(I believe) is a good choice to go with. I use 2 antennas with separate feeds in to the house and use an A/B type switch to select which one feeds the set at any given time. Good luck to you.

 

[Houston]

FAYRICH,
Thanks for your reply!
I was very suspicious about needing a “special” antenna, sounded funny right from the get go. Given I’ve had some experience in combining signals, and the issue of getting two UHF signals into the Receiver at the same time, snapped an “alert” up instantly. In this instance, I was considering a Splitter/Combiner, to get the Yagi and Bowtie into the same line. Apparently I may not need an A/B Switch, since I have a VHF/UHF Combination Antenna. Just to clarify though, you have used both VHF and UHF antennas, is that because of better reception, different type of signals, or directions of signal sources, which?
Additionally, it should be in my best interests to check and see what resources are available in my area (how many, type, direction) and have see a URL
http://www.antennaweb.org/ .
Will logging onto this site, giving my location, provide me with that information, or is there some other resource which I may get that information from?

 

[fayrich]

Even though I am not very far from the towers, I call my house location a hellhole for radio and tv reception. Don't know why, but it has always been this way and an ongoing 30 year battle for me. Some of the digitals are very weak, hence the separate antennas, plus amplifiers. Have finally won the battle by going to cable, and I use the OTA antennas strictly for recording HD programs on my Zenith HD hard drive recorder(not Tivo). Too much programming we like to watch is on at the same time, so I end up recording 6 - 8 hours of programming weekly. Antenna set-up works fine for this & I don't have to pay for cable company's recorder.

 

[techpuppy]

The antennaweb.org is a good place to start to get information about some of the stations available to you. Whether you need VHF and UHF depends entirely on what channels you are after. In many markets the HD channels are all UHF so a VHF antenna is pointless. Some UHF antennas pick up the upper VHF channels rather well and again a VHF antenna may not be needed.

The website mentioned will give you distance, frequency, and direction of the stations you are most likely able to receive. There are some other sources as well, but that is a good start. Depending on your location some digital stations may not yet be at full power.

 

[Houston]

Ice/techpuppy:

WOW, thanks, that website (http://www.antennaweb.org/) was great!

I knew that there were a few DTV channels in my area, but the search from Antennaweb brought up about 35 UHF/VHF total !

I’ve found about seven DTV’s that I’m interested in, manly the major networks. But I had NO idea there were so many!

Downloaded the Map of my area, and see there’s several locations that are being transmitted from. Fortunately two of them are pretty close (174° and 183°) and only about 7 miles from me, and have the majority of the stuff I want to watch!

I hooked up my Yagi Antenna (Radio Shack UHF/VHF/FM Beam Type in the Attic) and tried it on a standard TV. YUCK, signal is BAD, but maybe there’s a reason for that.

I have recently re-roofed my house, and used Plyboard with an Aluminum Foil Backing on it (energy efficient type board). Has anyone run into interference from that type board? Actually, it isn’t grounded, just nailed on the Rafters, so I’m not too sure just how much signal loss, it may cause. Anyone have any experience trying to “see” through that stuff? Can’t put a Yagi Antenna outside on the Roof, am in a Homeowners Assn, and fortunate that there’s a Federal Law, about the FTA Dish.

Now for some questions !

What the frack is a “YELLOW” antenna !?

The Chart lists the Yellow in VHF and UHF. Is there a difference, or can you get a “yellow antenna” that will do both UHF and VHF?

Presently I’m getting my Locals over Warner Cable, but, if things workout well (clarity of Channels), between the OTA and FTA, I might just be able to do away with that expense. Most of the HDTV channels I’m interested in, are listed as Yellow/UHF.

Just were can I look up the specifications of a “Yellow Antenna”, like the “field of View”, and see if it will cover the two transmitter locations, that I’d like to look at. (174° and 183°). Is the term “yellow” referring to just specifications like frequency, or is that a Manufacturers Name?

Does one have a choice about the Size or receiving range of this type antenna?

Additionally, when viewing the Antennaweb Chart, I “presume” the Azimuth readings are given in “True”, anyone know?

And, just anything else anyone would like to say about DTV vs. a “yellow Antenna” !

FAYRICH,
As you suggested, I tried the Attic Antenna, as you’ve read above, and UKK it just isn’t doing all that well. Thank you for prompting me to at least try it. Actually, I hadn’t used it since I got Warner Cable, but, as I remember it received a LOT better signal, before I put the new roof on. Hopefully the “yellow” antenna will be small enough where I can slip it up on the roof, without any flack from the HOA.

Thank all of you, for your comments/posts, and am really looking forward to more. I haven’t felt this under informed, since I started FTA’ing a few months back!

 

[techpuppy]

The foil backing on your new roof material will practically kill any reception from an attic antenna. An outside antenna will probably be needed.

The "yellow" reference is supposed to be a standard for rating the receiving range of an antenna. Yes there are yellow UHF/VHF antennas. The yellow specification won't have anything to do with "field of view". That varies with each antenna model/manufacturer. On the bright side if you're only trying to pull in signals from 7 miles away AND if you are concerned about neighbor complaints, there are several antennas on the market that are dome type or bar type and don't look like a conventional antenna. Generally they also don't perform as well as a conventional antenna either, but they might be an option. And there is always a chance that your existing attic antenna might be able to receive a digital signal well enough for you to use.

If you want to post your antennaweb results or zip code I'm sure you will get some good antenna recommendations.

 

[fayrich]

Good luck with that Homeowners Association thing! You might want to look into the Square Shooter antenna. I think it is from Winegard. It's about 18" square and can be mounted various ways so as to not be overly obnoxious. Maybe no one would notice.

 

[Jim5506]

The homeowners association cannot prevent you from putting up a yagi or any other TV antenna that is required for local TV reception.

The FCC will back you up on this.

Federal Law supercedes state law, local law and surely neighborhood associations.

The only problem with antennas that don't look like antenas is they usually underperform and are over priced.

Take the antenna in your attic and mount it in the back yard about 6 ft above the roof line.

 

[Houston]

Antennas

techpuppy,
Hay, if it helps, I’LL DO IT!

Please see the attachment Houston14.jpg, giving Azimuth and Distance in Miles. It appears that most of the Channels I like to watch, come up in UHF on the Chart I downloaded from Antennaweb. Again, thank you and FAYRICH for the referral.

Have looked up a couple of Antennas, see attachment Houston15.jpg, which shows the Phillips MANT940 Antenna. I also have seen similar “square” ones, from Winegard. The Phillips is an amplified Antenna, which I don’t object to, but, is that necessary, since most of the Channels I regularly watch, fall on the “F” and “G” towers. Those are only 6-7 mi away. Those two would be the ones I would “focus” on, and the Channels available on Towers “A” to “E”, are ones that I’ve never watched anyway.

I still haven’t found out the “FOV” for the Phillips Antenna. F and G Towers are only 9° apart, there’s an Antenna Farm south of me, and several of the Stations Xmit from it. I wouldn’t mind if it had a more “focused” FOV, I’m not too sure I need an “omni”, since the Towers are pretty close to each other. Seems like one would get better reception, from a “focused” Antenna, true?

Given my limited knowledge of antennas, it seems like I’d need a FOV of about 20+° or so, just to make sure I got both locations, close to center point, agree?

FAYRICH,
There is NO such thing as luck, with a HOA. I’ll NEVER buy a house that has an Association like that EVER AGAIN!!!

I could go on for hours, on the problems I’ve had with them, but making a long story short, I put a new roof on my hose, they didn’t like it, and I had to completely replace it AGAIN! 2X$$$ Bucks, OUCH !

However, your recommendation on the small square Antenna, may just be the right direction to go. Given the picture of the Phillips (if that’s the type you’re talking about), it probably could pass off for a Sat Dish, and the HOA doesn’t seem to mind small Dishes hanging on the sides, or even toward the front of the houses.

Isn’t that a shame, having to deal with that crap !!

Thanks to both of you for your helpful comments, but I’ve found that this website is replete, with people helping people.

 

[Mr Tony]

Can’t put a Yagi Antenna outside on the Roof, am in a Homeowners Assn, and fortunate that there’s a Federal Law, about the FTA Dish.

yes you can. I live in a HOA and they tried the same crap with me. Rule for a TV antenna is it can not be higher than 12 feet above the roof line. No restriction on size. I have a U-120 from Rat Shack and it works great for the Minneapolis stations. Get all the nets (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, CW, MY, I) in beautiful crystal clear digital reception when hooked to my Dish 811. Most of my stations are at 45 degrees from my house but I is literally 90 degrees to the left and I still get it good enough to keep a stable picture

What the frack is a “YELLOW” antenna !?

they do it in colors. Most outdoor antennas have a color code on them. Yellow is for pretty close reception and not a big antenna. Violet is a huge antenna

The Chart lists the Yellow in VHF and UHF. Is there a difference, or can you get a “yellow antenna” that will do both UHF and VHF?

nope. One antenna (a combo) works fine.

Presently I’m getting my Locals over Warner Cable, but, if things workout well (clarity of Channels), between the OTA and FTA, I might just be able to do away with that expense. Most of the HDTV channels I’m interested in, are listed as Yellow/UHF.

if they are UHF, that Yagi might work. My antenna is UHF only sicne all my digital networks are UHF

Just were can I look up the specifications of a “Yellow Antenna”, like the “field of View”, and see if it will cover the two transmitter locations, that I’d like to look at. (174° and 183°). Is the term “yellow” referring to just specifications like frequency, or is that a Manufacturers Name?

see above. All it means is you can get by with a smaller antenna since the stations are so close.

Does one have a choice about the Size or receiving range of this type antenna?

sure you do. The bigger the antenna, the more you can pick up analog wise. For digital, it just gives you a stronger picture and doesnt cut out with bad weather. Thats why I got the bigger antenna. My small one when it would rain the picture went out (I am 30 miles from the towers)

Additionally, when viewing the Antennaweb Chart, I “presume” the Azimuth readings are given in “True”, anyone know?

yes. Magnetic is irrelevant. Thats for satellite only

And, just anything else anyone would like to say about DTV vs. a “yellow Antenna” !

some channels have more than one station on its digital feed. My NBC & ABC have 24/7 weather and newscasts. The CW station has "The Tube" music videos on the 2nd channel. I have 6 PBS stations. One has the national HD signal. The 2nd one has subchannels of both PBS stations, a PBSKids type channel, 24/7 weather and one other

edit: I just ran my address and 3 of my stations (ABC, CBS, NBC) can use a Yellow antenna. Fox & My Net are green and the others (PBS, CW) are red. I clicked on the color and here is what they mean

 

[Houston]

Ice,
WOW, I've downloaded your reply, and will thoroughly read it later.
Leave it to you, to give me wiht all that info at once!
I do have a quick queston:
I'm not sure that I want an Omni, most of the other stations are not to interesting beyond those on Towers F and G.
Wouldn't a more directional antenna "focus" in on them, and give me a better signal?

 

[Mr Tony]

yes

 

[ralfyguy]

yes

How did you make that image of your desktop in post#11?

 

[gdarwin]

Cntl-Print screen puts it in your clipboard.

 

[Mr Tony]

yep. Control Print Screen saves it, then I just dumped into paint and saved as JPEG

 

[Houston]

Ice,
I knew of the FCC Regulation about Antenna’s/HOA. And you’re right about having an Antenna on the Roof. But, the hassle of dealing with them over one up there, is just not worth it. I’ve been through a long term fight with them over my Roof replacement, and I’m SO fed up with dealing with them, I just don’t want any more to do with them. They’ve made my home which I loved, into a house I hate to live in. Just thinking about them/that situation, just burns me up. Nuf said !

Ok, moving on now:
I’ve checked around on several Sites provided in the Posts, and can’t seem to find any information about just what “range” a Yellow Antenna gets. I see in your Post Attachment above, where it shows the Omni’s, but, the “smallest” Directional Antenna starts with a “Medium” directional “red” Antenna. Subsequently, I hope when I locate the specifications on some Antennas, they’ll give some physical sizes, where I can determine if I can use one or another.

I’ve been trying to read as many of the existing (posts) info on DTV, and saw one where (Towerguy I think) mentioned something about “overpowering” the DTV receiver. Given I’d like to have Towers A thru E available, even if I have to physically turn the Antenna, would getting an Antenna that would “reach” out 45+ miles, cause a problem when I had it set on Towers F and G, that are at 7 miles?

techpuppy/FAYRICH,

Uoops, spoke TOO soon about that Yagi I have in the Attic !
Seems like the Roofers, squashed the Cable when they laid the Plyboard over the Rafters! Having replaced the Cable, the signal is not bad at all. I just couldn’t understand why it deteriorated SO much, given the good signal it once provided.

Am getting 32 channels of DTV, from the F and G Towers, but haven’t turned the Yagi around, to check the other Towers yet. Actually I’m not too interested in the programming on them, but like I said to Ice, I’d like to have them available, IF I wanted to get up and adjust the Antenna.

Apparently I was a bit too judgmental about the Foil on the underside of the Plyboard. It appears that for the most part, it’s not attenuating the signals all that much. I admit, I just may not know what a “really” good signal looks like, having just started watching HD. But!, it is PROFOUNDLY better than what I’ve been watching in the past !

However, I AM getting a weak signal from my (lowest) Channel 2 and 2.1. Given what I’ve seen in some of the Posts, it may just be the characteristics of the Yagi, which, causes me to consider a “Directional” type replacement, IF that’s an answer to an unbalanced signals. Just to mention it, the DTV ranges up to 67.1 at my location, and it seems to have fair signal strength. It could be (like I said) that the Yagi is just weak in the lower range. Yet it could be because Ch 2/2.1 is not a strong signal to start with. I’ve yet to find a source that tells me just what power the Stations are transmitting at, where I could compare it to one with good reception.

FYI:
Yagi is a Rad Shack VU-90XR, 32 Element, 80” Boom,
VHF: 90 mi, UHF: 70 mi, FM: 70 mi, Dec. 1997.

The range issue and “opposite” tower locations, brings up the possibility of an additional antenna, via a A/B Switch. Used them before, and never was quite satisfied with their performance.
Does anyone know of one (Mfg) that is of “good” quality?

Given that the “Square” Phillips MANT940 has been mentioned, would there be any problems using it (which is an Amplified Antenna) and the Yagi which isn’t. Am concerned about the surge of voltage on the receiver, when changing A to B.
Someone have experience with this?

PS: Ice,
Hope I’m not “over thinking” this , and now (on another Thread) have been accused of being “Bi-Polar”. That, plus having purchased a “Dickfer” for my Sat System, I find it’s really hard to keep a good reputation on this website.

 

[techpuppy]

I'm glad the antenna in the attic is working out for you. The digital channel 2 you are receiving is really on RF channel 35, a uhf channel and the FCC shows them operating at full power now. KPBX and KUHT are the only VHF digital stations. The rest are all broadcasting on UHF channels.

You might try turning your antenna around to the "backside" channels. Your local signals might be strong enough to come in anyway. I had a Radio Shack UHF antenna and found that I got reliable reception by pointing it at the weakest stations. The rest came in on the back and side of the antenna because they were strong enough. It may not work, but it might save the hassle of and A/B switch or adding attennas.

 

[Mr Tony]

Ice,
I knew of the FCC Regulation about Antenna’s/HOA. And you’re right about having an Antenna on the Roof. But, the hassle of dealing with them over one up there, is just not worth it. I’ve been through a long term fight with them over my Roof replacement, and I’m SO fed up with dealing with them, I just don’t want any more to do with them. They’ve made my home which I loved, into a house I hate to live in. Just thinking about them/that situation, just burns me up. Nuf said !

understandable...

Ok, moving on now:
I’ve checked around on several Sites provided in the Posts, and can’t seem to find any information about just what “range” a Yellow Antenna gets. I see in your Post Attachment above, where it shows the Omni’s, but, the “smallest” Directional Antenna starts with a “Medium” directional “red” Antenna. Subsequently, I hope when I locate the specifications on some Antennas, they’ll give some physical sizes, where I can determine if I can use one or another.

there really isnt a distant given because everyone's terrain is different. I have a U-120 from Rat Shack that "claims" 120 miles UHF. But that is flat terrain and dealing with stations that are full (5000Kw for UHF) power. Throw in some buildings, some hills and lower powered stations, and that 120 doesnt go very far

I’ve been trying to read as many of the existing (posts) info on DTV, and saw one where (Towerguy I think) mentioned something about “overpowering” the DTV receiver. Given I’d like to have Towers A thru E available, even if I have to physically turn the Antenna, would getting an Antenna that would “reach” out 45+ miles, cause a problem when I had it set on Towers F and G, that are at 7 miles?

not for digital. You cant overpower it. Its like FTA. If you only need a 30" dish and you use a 10 footer, does the signal deteriorate? no
I use to have a VU160 antenna and I would swing it SW to get the distant CBS (75+ miles away). When I swing it back to my Mpls stations (30 miles away) it was fine.

Am getting 32 channels of DTV, from the F and G Towers, but haven’t turned the Yagi around, to check the other Towers yet. Actually I’m not too interested in the programming on them, but like I said to Ice, I’d like to have them available, IF I wanted to get up and adjust the Antenna.

cool. glad your getting some channels.

However, I AM getting a weak signal from my (lowest) Channel 2 and 2.1. Given what I’ve seen in some of the Posts, it may just be the characteristics of the Yagi, which, causes me to consider a “Directional” type replacement, IF that’s an answer to an unbalanced signals. Just to mention it, the DTV ranges up to 67.1 at my location, and it seems to have fair signal strength. It could be (like I said) that the Yagi is just weak in the lower range. Yet it could be because Ch 2/2.1 is not a strong signal to start with. I’ve yet to find a source that tells me just what power the Stations are transmitting at, where I could compare it to one with good reception.

Link to Houston TV
main site is http://radiostationworld.com/north_america.asp

the ones in aqua are the digital channels. Looks like 2 (NBC?) is running at high power but someone in the area might be able to add more info

FYI:
Yagi is a Rad Shack VU-90XR, 32 Element, 80” Boom,
VHF: 90 mi, UHF: 70 mi, FM: 70 mi, Dec. 1997.

That shuld be fine. PBS 8 (Digital 9) and I (PAX) are the only HD on VHF. The rest are UHF.
I use to work at Rat Shack 10 years or so ago and we sold a LOT of those in the SW suburbs of Minneapolis for analog and they worked great. See alot of them still around

The range issue and “opposite” tower locations, brings up the possibility of an additional antenna, via a A/B Switch. Used them before, and never was quite satisfied with their performance.
Does anyone know of one (Mfg) that is of “good” quality?

you could do that. Digital is drastically different than analog when aiming.

PS: Ice,
Hope I’m not “over thinking” this , and now (on another Thread) have been accused of being “Bi-Polar”. That, plus having purchased a “Dickfer” for my Sat System, I find it’s really hard to keep a good reputation on this website.

we're all a little nuts here

 

[Houston]

Ice,

After careful consideration and some help from terryfoster (thank you tf), it appears that I’m not getting as many HD channels as I thought !

Seems like I was counting ALL the channels on OTA off of my Yagi Antenna, and actually am only getting about 15 or so “.1” HD’s, with about 16 more “sub-channels”, those being the SD “.2” to “.6”. Not all the HD’s have six subs, but several have two to four of them, totaling a quite respectable amount, I think, off of two out of seven Towers available !

Visited the radiostationworld.com, thanks, a very clear description of the locals for me, with Kw strengths. I think they haven’t updated that list in a while, I know that on my KETH/TBN (Ch 14.1) has 5 more sub channels, which aren’t listed on the site, possibly others too.

Concerning the weakness of my KPRC 2.1 compared to the others, I may get some answers to that, given that there’s a “local” site, where I can ask about reception there. Thanks to terryfoster and you Ice, both! WOW, I’d be stuff out of luck, considering the limited time I got on the internet, if it weren’t for guys like you.
Thank you SO much for your help, both of you !

Your comment about not being able to “overpower” digital appears to be right on, considering that the other stations, not sure just where the Kw level “break” is, but the rest of them that I’m looking at, view about the same, though they do have a varying amount of Kw output.

I may not have stated my question about “overpowering” very well (as a matter of fact, I’m sure I didn’t). What I meant was, should I get a second (directional) antenna, like the Amplified Phillips MANT940, set it on the my “F” and “G” (south) towers, then turned my Yagi around, focusing it on the North Towers, would there be a problem using an A/B switch, with the difference in voltage being changed on the receiver? Like a surge of voltage, might damage it ?

OH WOW, just thought of something else, IF I did a A/B, wouldn’t I have to do an “Auto-Search”, each time I changed it ?

Also, you said: “Digital is drastically different than analog when aiming”. Just how different ?

PS Ice:
GEES, I CAN’t believe it !, I just looked at your specs, over 22,000 Posts !
Do you sleep, eat, or go to the bathroom, at all !?!