HDMI/HDCP problem

[rwelborn]

I just upgraded to a Dish Model 722 DVR and can't get proper reception from the HDMI output on the 722. When the new 722 was put into operation, I used a HDMI to DVI-D cable to connect the receiver to my Sharp XR30X projector and had a very good picture using either 720p or 1090i. As soon as the receiver was activated, it downloaded new software and rebooted. When the receiver came back on the picture was flashing on and off at a rate of about twice a second. The picture is very clear alternately and nothing but a white snowy screen in between.

The installer could not get it to work and I called Dish. They sent out another installer with a new receiver and it did the same thing and he couldn't get it to work either. It works with S-Video and SD connections. The installer said he would have Dish engineering check the problem. After waiting several days, I called Dish again and there was no record of the problem. This operator said he would submit it and to call back in 3 days. I called back in three days and was told the same thing. This time I was told to call back in 1 week and they could not call me back.

The reason I upgraded was to get High Definition, which I still don't have. I have my doubts that I will get a satisfactory solution from Dish Network. When I asked to return to my original configuration, I was told that that was not possible and that if I cancelled service, I would be charged $300 because I signed a commitment for 24 months.

My projector works with all other HDMI sources and also the 722 until the new software was downloaded. It is obvious that the problem is with Dish Network. Does anyone know of any solution other than replacing my projector? It is less than a year old and I like the picture I get with it with other sources. I hate paying for High Definition and not being able to use it, and if I can't find a solution, I will probably wind up hating Dish Network who I've been with and promoted for 10 years.

 

[ncted]

HDMI doesn't work with my Samsun LN-S4696D either. Never has. Have you tried component?

Ted

 

[kvnfl]

The 722 has a setting that selects your TV/Projector by brand and model. Is that set up correctly? Same thing would be to adjust the output (720p/1080i) to match your projector.

 

[rwelborn]

The projector doesn't have component input. Component inputs are RGB analog and not digital anyway. I am looking it by using S-video into my Toshiba DVD recorder which upconverts it to 720p. which is probably just as good as Component, but not as good as HDMI. My recorder has a Hi Definition tuner and I can get my locals from my TV antenna, with better picture than I now get with Dish, unless I'm willing to blink my eyes twice a second to see their digital output.

 

[lakebum431]

If calibrated properly you will see no difference between HDMI and component.

 

[ncted]

The projector doesn't have component input. Component inputs are RGB analog and not digital anyway. I am looking it by using S-video into my Toshiba DVD recorder which upconverts it to 720p. which is probably just as good as Component, but not as good as HDMI. My recorder has a Hi Definition tuner and I can get my locals from my TV antenna, with better picture than I now get with Dish, unless I'm willing to blink my eyes twice a second to see their digital output.

Well, if there is no component, then you are probably out of luck. I generally find component to look superior from STBs, but HDMI is certainly convenient. Your comment reminds me, is Dish's component RGB or YPbPr?

Ted

 

[rwelborn]

Unless I concentrate, I can not even see a difference between S-video and 720p or 1080i. But if I look closely, my Sharp projector looks better looking at my locals from my TV antenna at 720p than my Dish receiver with S-video upconverted to 720p. I didn't see a menu for setting a specific brand TV on the 722. If there is the Sharp projector probably isn't listed. It just seems to me that the whole idea of digital is to stay digital from beginning to end. We have a digital signal from Dish network whether it SD or HD. If we use the Component out, whether its RGB or YPbPr, we are using an analog output and then reconverting it back to digital for the projector to use on it's DLP digital chip. I'm sure you would have to strain your eyes to see the difference, but being an engineer, I resent paying for something I'm not getting. Dish raised my bill by $21 a month for basically the same channels except for a very few HD only channels that I don't use. If I could change back to what I had, I would, but they say I would have to pay $300 and my bill would still be more than it was, because they had waived some fees due to receiver replacements.

 

[ncted]

Unless I concentrate, I can not even see a difference between S-video and 720p or 1080i. But if I look closely, my Sharp projector looks better looking at my locals from my TV antenna at 720p than my Dish receiver with S-video upconverted to 720p. I didn't see a menu for setting a specific brand TV on the 722. If there is the Sharp projector probably isn't listed. It just seems to me that the whole idea of digital is to stay digital from beginning to end. We have a digital signal from Dish network whether it SD or HD. If we use the Component out, whether its RGB or YPbPr, we are using an analog output and then reconverting it back to digital for the projector to use on it's DLP digital chip. I'm sure you would have to strain your eyes to see the difference, but being an engineer, I resent paying for something I'm not getting. Dish raised my bill by $21 a month for basically the same channels except for a very few HD only channels that I don't use. If I could change back to what I had, I would, but they say I would have to pay $300 and my bill would still be more than it was, because they had waived some fees due to receiver replacements.

I don't disagree that you should be upset. I would call Dish and escalate until you get someone who will help you. You can also sign up to have the Dish bill charged to your credit card, and then dispute the charge since Dish did not fulfill their commitment to you.

There are many levels to the component vs. HDMI discussion, but the upshot is more (better?) color information is sent over component than HDMI, especially Dish's implementation of HDMI (no High RGB), so, even though there are additional digital to analog and back again conversions going on, component may still look better. HDMI was not designed to be a good digital technology for AV. It was designed to prevent duplication of copyrighted material. Hence, it kind of sucks.

Ted

 

[rwelborn]

Ted,

Thanks for your responses. I have probably spent about 6 hours on the phone with Dish Network, with the last call being about 3.5 hours. I think I was pushed up to the top of their chain when I kept threatining to cancel. I made the mistake of taking the Cinemax for a year for 1 cent if I would accept automatic billing. I could dispute the charge on several issues that were quoted to me during my upgrade conversation, but the credit card company will only hold for a limited time. They expect you to negotiate a resolution with Dish. I have negitiated with Dish several times in the past on small billing issues for billing mistakes which they never accept responsibility for. They will give credit for one month, but if the same mistake is made in future months, the charge is back. They say I agreed to everything, even though I know exactly what was agreed. They don't leave you a copy of the agreement you sign when the serviceman leaves the equipment. If I could just find some kind of processor to put between the receiver and the projector to correct the problem, I would just live with my unagreed to charges until it's profitable to change.

 

[ekilgus]

There are many levels to the component vs. HDMI discussion, but the upshot is more (better?) color information is sent over component than HDMI, especially Dish's implementation of HDMI (no High RGB), so, even though there are additional digital to analog and back again conversions going on, component may still look better. HDMI was not designed to be a good digital technology for AV. It was designed to prevent duplication of copyrighted material. Hence, it kind of sucks.

Ted

When HDMI is set up properly it will provide a picture as good as component, not better. Accordingly, ted's comments are totally accurate except that I would add that HDMI's design to prevent duplication is pretty worthless as it doesn't take too much effort to circumvent HDCP if one wanted to.

 

[TheKrell]

Huh.

How about this contraption ? Don't know how it can be "HDCP compliant", though. Aren't component outputs DRM-free?

Ekilgus: Can you PM me a URL about HDCP? I'm assuming we're not allowed to post stuff like that here.

 

[rwelborn]

I didn't intend to start a discussion on which is better, Component or HDMI. I just wanted to know if there is a way to connect my Dish 722 to my Sharp XR30X projector which has a DVI-D input. Dish doesn't have any initiative to solve my poblem. They tell me I am under contract and it's my problem. I don't want to do anything illegal and plugging my satellite receiver to my TV is not illegal. HDCP was implemented after the HDMI protocol was developed because they (the copywright holders) said that the HDCP digital output signal was a perfect output of their copywrited material. But if I pay a monthly fee to be able to view this material, I should be able to view it on any monitor I choose. I am not attempting to record it. This was after component signals were being used on early HDTVs. They didn't try to protect component outputs because they didn't consider them to be true digital or a perfect reproduction.

 

[ncted]

I thought HDCP came first? My Sony 36xbr800 had HDCP on the DVI interface, and that was in fall of 2002. HDMI did not debut in devices until 2003. In any case, you could always complain to your state attorney general about Dish and see what happens.

Ted

 

[JimK2]

I didn't intend to start a discussion on which is better, Component or HDMI. I just wanted to know if there is a way to connect my Dish 722 to my Sharp XR30X projector which has a DVI-D input. Dish doesn't have any initiative to solve my poblem. They tell me I am under contract and it's my problem. I don't want to do anything illegal and plugging my satellite receiver to my TV is not illegal. HDCP was implemented after the HDMI protocol was developed because they (the copywright holders) said that the HDCP digital output signal was a perfect output of their copywrited material. But if I pay a monthly fee to be able to view this material, I should be able to view it on any monitor I choose. I am not attempting to record it. This was after component signals were being used on early HDTVs. They didn't try to protect component outputs because they didn't consider them to be true digital or a perfect reproduction.

VIP722 > Hdfury > VGA > XR30X

 

[TheKrell]

Well, your situation just plain sucks. I don't know what I would do if I were you.

Yes I do. I would try an adapter like I put into the URL above. That's assuming our 722 component output is YPbPr and not RGB, and also that you have your sound taken care of external to your HDMI/DVI adapter cable. (The adapter above only has coax in, not optical as our 722's have going out.)

There are a whole lot of HDMI signal conditioners (not to mention HDCP strippers!) meant for sending the signal long distances, or re-timing it, or switching several HDMI sources into one. If you have a home-theater receiver, try sending the signal through that. But obviously if you have to try too many of these possible workarounds, then you might as well have purchased a new flat panel HDTV. They'll probably be a whole lot brighter than your Sharp. Speaking of which, doesn't Dish give you some sort of rebate deal on Sharp HDTVs? Maybe you can work that angle and get a sweetheart deal.

Good luck!

 

[old corps]

Both 622 & 722 component outputs ARE YPbPR.

Ed

 

[rwelborn]

The Krell,

I checked out the link for the Component Conditioner, but it has only Component outputs which my Sharp doesn't have. The HDCP strippers are very expensive, and I can't even find out if HDCP is causing the problem. Sharp claims the DVI-D input is HDCP complient. My cable is 30 feet long, but it works fine with the DVD recorder. Maybe Dish Network has a lower level output than the recorder. I tried an HDMI switch which didn't work. It was one without an amplifier. I don't have a home-theater receiver and was considering one, but can't find in their spec sheets if the included switch is amplified. They have both HDMI and Component inputs and outputs, but I think they are only passthrough and you couldn't use Component in to HDMI out. Actually my Sharp with 2200 lumens on the low light position is just as bright as the flat panels when I project to an 84 inch wide screen.

 

[TheKrell]

I checked out the link for the Component Conditioner, but it has only Component outputs which my Sharp doesn't have.

You must have missed it. The link I have in post #11 above is not a conditioner, but a component-to-HDMI adapter. It's basically a fast A-to-D converter for YPbPr component signals such as that available on Dish HD receivers. The digital out is of course HDMI, which you would use with your HDMI/DVI cable going to your Sharp. Might work; might not! The part I don't understand is it claims to be HDCP compliant. How can this be if it accepts un-DRM'd analog component video in?

 

[moneyman]

My hitachi plasma only has dvi so i use a hdmi to dvi cable from monoprice to hook up.It did a good job until they downloaded new software.Now my 722 takes forever to turn on,the screen flashes dark light,then i get a picture.Going to menu 6-3 analysis hdmi test ,hdcp switches between on off for about 5 minutes then stays on.My bd has no problem playing,so it's something with the hdmi handshake.

 

[hellomann]

I think the problem is with HDCP on sharp projector. The only options for you is to buy the component to DVI converter.