HDMI 1.1 & 1.3--which one?

[mike123abc]

I see 1.3 as being useful eventually. PS3 and computers might benefit. But, there are concerns right now (Microsoft bashing PS3) that PS3 will have problems running fast enough to generate 1920x1080i imagesat a good frame rate, much less using deep colors. Graphics cards in computers will eventually be able to use the deep color of 1.3 without problems.

The other problem is display technology. Displays are just starting to work their way off of 8bits/color. HDMI 1.1 can do 12 bits per color, but very few displays can do 12 bit. More bits helps with rounding errors, but does not create content where there is no content (like HD-DVD and BR which are not encoded with deep color, and they cannot go change the standard all the sudden).

Audio has some benefits too, and prehaps this is where the most use of 1.3 will come into play to process advanced codecs, allowing cheaper players to come out without them needing to decode everything.

Now, perhaps one day there will be services where you can download an HD movie to your computer with 48bit color and true HD soundtracks and that will be able to fully use 1.3. Of course you will have to hook it up to a new display that can actually show that many colors and a receiver that can decode the audio.

Some plasmas are claiming 12 bit (4096 shades of grey). Some other displays like LCD claim 12 bit processing, but the panels are still limited to 8 bit. They just can blend adjacent pixels with enough processing power to give the look of more than 8 bits/pixel.

As with anything you buy now in the high end of AV it will be obsolete in 5 years anyways, by then HDMI 1.3 might be useful. I would not worry about it right now, yes a nice feature if you get it, but at least a year before anything will actually be able to use a feature (most likely audio decoders in receivers). And several years before display technology can use it...

 

[John Kotches]

I see 1.3 as being useful eventually. PS3 and computers might benefit. But, there are concerns right now (Microsoft bashing PS3) that PS3 will have problems running fast enough to generate 1920x1080i imagesat a good frame rate, much less using deep colors. Graphics cards in computers will eventually be able to use the deep color of 1.3 without problems.

Yes, but deep color is not part of the CE device definitions, so they won't support it.

The other problem is display technology. Displays are just starting to work their way off of 8bits/color. HDMI 1.1 can do 12 bits per color, but very few displays can do 12 bit. More bits helps with rounding errors, but does not create content where there is no content (like HD-DVD and BR which are not encoded with deep color, and they cannot go change the standard all the sudden).

Which is why I'm saying that 1.3 isn't needed. Not only that, but CE displays (not computer displays) are designed around the limitations of 1.1.

Audio has some benefits too, and prehaps this is where the most use of 1.3 will come into play to process advanced codecs, allowing cheaper players to come out without them needing to decode everything.

The ASIC to handle audio decoding in players will be about $3 in qty in about 6 months.

The DSP to handle the additional processing load will add more than $3 to the base cost of receivers.

Now, perhaps one day there will be services where you can download an HD movie to your computer with 48bit color and true HD soundtracks and that will be able to fully use 1.3. Of course you will have to hook it up to a new display that can actually show that many colors and a receiver that can decode the audio.

And the download time will be measured in days with current broadband speeds.

Some plasmas are claiming 12 bit (4096 shades of grey). Some other displays like LCD claim 12 bit processing, but the panels are still limited to 8 bit. They just can blend adjacent pixels with enough processing power to give the look of more than 8 bits/pixel.

Unless you're feeding that plasma a PC signal, there's no way you'll test the 12-bit depth anyway

As with anything you buy now in the high end of AV it will be obsolete in 5 years anyways, by then HDMI 1.3 might be useful. I would not worry about it right now, yes a nice feature if you get it, but at least a year before anything will actually be able to use a feature (most likely audio decoders in receivers). And several years before display technology can use it...

We're about on the same page. 1.1 yes, 1.3 great if it's there otherwise don't sweat it.

 

[Ilya]

If you do not have a HDMI receiver right now and would like to purchase one why would you purchase a HDMI 1.1 receiver when you can wait and purchase a HDMI 1.3 receiver by next spring?

The thing is that every year there will be something better on the horizon that might sound like it's worth waiting for.
Welcome to the Digital Age ruled by the Moore's law! It's like with personal computers: no matter what you buy today, it will be outdated in a matter of months! Digital technology evolves too quickly.

The trick is to focus on the most important things first. You need to figure out what is really important, what is a "must have", vs. what is "nice to have". If you want to get the best possible sound out of your HD DVD and Blu-ray equipment, here are your top priorities:

1. If you are buying an inexpensive AV receiver (well under $1000), then make sure that at a very least it has 5.1 analog inputs. This will result in better sound than over digital coax or optical connections. (See my post here.)

2. If you are looking for a top-of-the-line AV receiver, make sure it has HDMI inputs, and most important: make sure it is capable of extracting multi-channel LPCM stream out of HDMI. (Some receivers have HDMI, but are not capable of processing multi-LPCM). This will give you the best possible sound quality today. And HDMI 1.1 will do just fine.

HDMI 1.3 may sound like one of those "nice to have" features, but it is definitely not a "must have". As John explained in details, it doesn't give you any immediate benefits, the way it stands now. If you can wait till next year for one of those new HDMI 1.3 receivers, fine. But don't think you will miss the boat if you don't.

 

[John Kotches]

But Ilya you actually listened to what I had to say. JoeSP is too busy cutting and pasting from elsewhere to do that.

Cheers,

 

[JoeSp]

Not true John, by my meandering you guys have pointed out (in plain speak) the differances between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3 and wheather or not you would need HDMI 1.3 --right now and in the near future -- obviously not. One thing that I found very important is the necessity of processing multiple LPCMs with a HDMI receiver. I thought if a receiver had HDMI it would also do that -- guess not.

When I originally found and posted the HDTVMagazine article they made it appear that in order to be able to receive all the benefits of the new HD audio codecs one should be considering the new 1.3 standard. Sometimes one must stir the pot to get information out. If stiring the pot got you and others to discuss this maybe it was the right thing to do to help those new consumers out there just now buying into HDTV and home theater setups. There are some purchasers who want to know if they need that next standard. Perhaps this stiring might just help them?
I know it definately offers some questions that should be asked before purchasing a HDMI receiver.

 

[Ilya]

right now and in the near future -- obviously not.

Good! Can we rename the thread now?

When I originally found and posted the HDTVMagazine article they made it appear that in order to be able to receive all the benefits of the new HD audio codecs one should be considering the new 1.3 standard.

That would've been true if players didn't have built-in decoders. Fortunately Toshiba HD DVD players come with decoders for DD+ and now, with the latest 2.0 firmware update, for Dolby TrueHD as well.

 

[JoeSp]

Will the Toshiba decode DTS-HD? Would you like me to change title to post to Differances between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3?

 

[Ilya]

Will the Toshiba decode DTS-HD?

It can decode DTS-HD, but presently DTS core only. Not sure if an upcoming update will enable full decoding of DTS-HD, that would be great!
But it's not critical, as there are no discs with DTS-HD yet, as far as I know. Dolby TrueHD support (enabled with firmware 2.0) is more important, the way it stands now.

Would you like me to change title to post to Differances between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3?

Done.

 

[JU1CYFRU1T]

... by my meandering you guys have pointed out (in plain speak) the differances between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3 and wheather or not you would need HDMI 1.3 --right now and in the near future -- obviously not. One thing that I found very important is the necessity of processing multiple LPCMs with a HDMI receiver. I thought if a receiver had HDMI it would also do that -- guess not.

If stiring the pot got you and others to discuss this maybe it was the right thing to do to help those new consumers out there just now buying into HDTV and home theater setups. There are some purchasers who want to know if they need that next standard. Perhaps this stiring might just help them?
I know it definately offers some questions that should be asked before purchasing a HDMI receiver.

JoeSp is right. I was 'one of those guys' waiting for 1.3. I have read on other forums that you can use 1.1 to get DD TrueHD, but without this reasoning, I always thought it was speculation. With this information, I can buy a Denon 3806 and know that I will be able to enjoy all the HD audio coming from the Toshiba HD DVD player.

JU1CYFRU1T