HD lite

[LonghornXP]

I'm sure DTV will increase PQ in the future. It just gets my goat with people talking about class action suits and FTC involvement on something like this. Come on, it's just TV.

Hey I did cancel my DirecTV service because of this but lets not forget that when I signed up and started paying for their HD package the picture quality was way way better than it is today. I expect the quality to at least stay the same after I bought my expensive hardware. If I knew that DirecTV would have gone HD-Lite sixth months after I just spent over 500 bucks on an HDTV box do you think I might have stayed where I was with say Voom, Dish Network or my cable company.

Right now nearly all providers at least offer the same quality the network gives them which is 1920x1080i and as such a customer should be told before they spend several hundred bucks that what they will get for that 300 bucks and 10.95/month isn't as good as what they got with their cable company.

How would you like it if you ordered a product from Amazon for 500 bucks and Amazon sent you a different lower end model that only costs 300 bucks and they say well your getting this one because it can still play back your music just fine even though it doesn't have as good of quality in its DACs and so on and so forth.

This to me is no different than DirecTV just one day blacking out the NFL Sunday Ticket channels that are on your local stations. You guys and gals might not even know why DirecTV will be getting rid of the blackouts next year. Well it seems that a couple of law firms were going to try and sue both CBS and Fox (not DirecTV) because all the people that payed the high price for NFL Sunday Ticket are paying that price to offset the lost advertising money that both CBS and Fox would lose because people buy the package to watch another game besides their local CBS and Fox station. So the NFL Sunday Ticket price is setup to offset the lost advertising money for all games shown every week on the local stations. Just because a customer watches the game on the local station doesn't change the fact that those local stations have been payed for the lost advertising.

Now add into the mix the customer missing the start or end of some games plus the not getting the games in HDTV because their local station doesn't do HDTV and this has a good chance for a major lawsuit. Now DirecTV tries to be clever and create a SuperFan package which charges extra for the HDTV games to get around this problem by saying our website and information says that a customers local broadcast stations games won't be available in HDTV via the SuperFan package and the result is that it makes the case stronger.

So customers are paying for the NFL Sunday Ticket package which pays the local stations for lost advertising. Now DirecTV charges extra for SuperFan which in turn should also provide money to the local stations for lost HDTV local viewers. This case only became big because DirecTV is paying the local stations a certian amount of money from every NFL Sunday Ticket customer for the loss of advertising. So a customer is paying extra to get all the available HD games but that customer might not get them all because their local station doesn't broadcast in HDTV and now add insult to injury because that customer is also paying the local broadcasters to offset the lost advertising money because that customer isn't watching their HDTV feed or should I say the customer isn't watching their non existant HDTV channel.

You all would be quite shocked to say the least if you knew all the crap that goes behind the scenes that you never hear about because they don't want this information assumed by the public.

 

[LonghornXP]

Source please? Without one this is wild speculation that flys in the face of D*'s past track record.

You know darn well I can't provide a source but you also know I have them.

 

[dragon002]

Hey I did cancel my DirecTV service because of this but lets not forget that when I signed up and started paying for their HD package the picture quality was way way better than it is today. I expect the quality to at least stay the same after I bought my expensive hardware. If I knew that DirecTV would have gone HD-Lite sixth months after I just spent over 500 bucks on an HDTV box do you think I might have stayed where I was with say Voom, Dish Network or my cable company.
Right now nearly all providers at least offer the same quality the network gives them which is 1920x1080i and as such a customer should be told before they spend several hundred bucks that what they will get for that 300 bucks and 10.95/month isn't as good as what they got with their cable company.
How would you like it if you ordered a product from Amazon for 500 bucks and Amazon sent you a different lower end model that only costs 300 bucks and they say well your getting this one because it can still play back your music just fine even though it doesn't have as good of quality in its DACs and so on and so forth.
This to me is no different than DirecTV just one day blacking out the NFL Sunday Ticket channels that are on your local stations. You guys and gals might not even know why DirecTV will be getting rid of the blackouts next year. Well it seems that a couple of law firms were going to try and sue both CBS and Fox (not DirecTV) because all the people that payed the high price for NFL Sunday Ticket are paying that price to offset the lost advertising money that both CBS and Fox would lose because people buy the package to watch another game besides their local CBS and Fox station. So the NFL Sunday Ticket price is setup to offset the lost advertising money for all games shown every week on the local stations. Just because a customer watches the game on the local station doesn't change the fact that those local stations have been payed for the lost advertising.
Now add into the mix the customer missing the start or end of some games plus the not getting the games in HDTV because their local station doesn't do HDTV and this has a good chance for a major lawsuit. Now DirecTV tries to be clever and create a SuperFan package which charges extra for the HDTV games to get around this problem by saying our website and information says that a customers local broadcast stations games won't be available in HDTV via the SuperFan package and the result is that it makes the case stronger.
So customers are paying for the NFL Sunday Ticket package which pays the local stations for lost advertising. Now DirecTV charges extra for SuperFan which in turn should also provide money to the local stations for lost HDTV local viewers. This case only became big because DirecTV is paying the local stations a certian amount of money from every NFL Sunday Ticket customer for the loss of advertising. So a customer is paying extra to get all the available HD games but that customer might not get them all because their local station doesn't broadcast in HDTV and now add insult to injury because that customer is also paying the local broadcasters to offset the lost advertising money because that customer isn't watching their HDTV feed or should I say the customer isn't watching their non existant HDTV channel.
You all would be quite shocked to say the least if you knew all the crap that goes behind the scenes that you never hear about because they don't want this information assumed by the public.

i dont think directv is paying the locals for the lost advertising revenue. directv pays the NFL for the rights to broadcast the games, now the NFL may reimburse the locals for the lost ad revenue, but directv is not paying the locals for a nfl product

 

[LonghornXP]

i dont think directv is paying the locals for the lost advertising revenue. directv pays the NFL for the rights to broadcast the games, now the NFL may reimburse the locals for the lost ad revenue, but directv is not paying the locals for a nfl product

You are correct but the point I was getting at is that we NFL Sunday Ticket customers are indeed paying our local stations to offset their loss in advertising. Why do you think the NFL Sunday Ticket package costs so much. Its not just all because of directv bidding way too high for it. Granted that is a big part of it but that is only a very small percentage of the overall costs or to put it in numbers its only about 30 percent of the cost.

 

[dragon002]

longhorn,

a few more things, the NFL blackout rule for local airing is as follows, if a game doesnt sell ouy 72 hours in advance of kick-off , the game will not be shown in the local market. this goes for the local flagship station, the teams tv network, directv and the almighty ....it is an NFL rule. it is not made to punish tv viewers, it is to protect the owners and fill up stadiums. (glad i live in steeler country)

the other thing is, i do believe (i may be wrong) the sunday ticket is branded as "HD when available", i dont see how directv or cbs or fox can be sued for not showing ANYTHING in hd or even DIGITAL until 2009 unless they say ALL games will be in HD. they have not done that.

lastly, directv WAS bid against by DISH (who was the first to drop) and the cablecos led by COMCAST, who chose not to match DIRECTVs last offer. murdock isnt a fool, he knew how much was too much and i dont believe he went over that price....do you?

 

[rad]

Nope it seems that the next two satellites going up will provide nearly all of the conus bandwidth. They were planning on using Spaceway 1 and 2 as two giant spotbeams but it seems that a few technicial problems have held this back long enough that they just scrapped that idea. So right now both Spaceway sats are true spotbeamed HD LIL satellites and just cannot handle national conus HD offerings. They have other things they can do to increase their national HD offerings but that won't occur until next year. When next year is an entire new question I can't answer yet.

Next year as in 2006 or 2007????

 

[EEJay]

6. saying you were acting like liberals may have been harsh , but true, i want this and the rest of you have to give it to me and i want it at a price i want to pay, SEE liberal think!!!

OK, some good points in your post, but I still don't believe that line of thinking is liberal. I might debate that it's capitalism in its truest form. I have the choice of giving my money to a competing company that produces a better product (I stopped paying for the DirecTV HD package months ago because I simply couldn't watch the channels - not for $11 a month anyway.) Granted, "better product" is almost always opinion, but I still believe the "HD-lite" issue is simply about consumer choice instead of liberal thinking.

 

[vurbano]

You know darn well I can't provide a source but you also know I have them.

No press release, no formal quote equals speculation on this matter. Ill take your word on equipment, but plans to increase PQ via secret sources that dont want to be quoted??? From a company that will not admit there is a problem??? From a company that has deleted any technical details reffering to HD resolution from its website?? Sorry, but that kind of info is as thin as the "Oh voom will be 1920x1080i HD in a week or too, no by CES, or well maybe in the 1st quarter" In most of D*'s launch announcements they say "the additional bandwidth will be used for x,y,z and for other services" That other services part is what scares me. D* has announced that mpeg4 is coming, that new equipment is coming, that more sats and services are coming but they have NOT announced increased PQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would think that with all of the complaints and the lridiculous engths they have gone too to cover up their HDlite, and the changes to the website to counter accusations of false advertising, the disabling of backdoor resolution codes on the HDtivo and etc that a PQ announcement would be at the top of the list for things to announce. Its blatant absence is almost proof that it wont happen IMO. Hopefully I am wrong but the majority of the evidence thus far is pointing to continued HDlite. Of course some will say, what do you think they are going to do with all of that bandwidth??? Are you crazy?? My answer is "other services" i.e, video on demand, internet and anything else they feel they may need to compete with cable. PQ is the last thing on D*'s mind and dont for one moment think that capacity for 1500 channels means that D* intends to add even one more channel. D* will add what they feel like adding and use that capacity for what they feel helps them compete against cable whatever that may be. The phrase "capacity for .........." is merely a way to measure the capacity and that is all it is.

 

[LonghornXP]

No press release, no formal quote equals speculation on this matter. Ill take your word on equipment, but plans to increase PQ via secret sources that dont want to be quoted??? From a company that will not admit there is a problem??? From a company that has deleted any technical details reffering to HD resolution from its website?? Sorry, but that kind of info is as thin as the "Oh voom will be 1920x1080i HD in a week or too, no by CES, or well maybe in the 1st quarter" In most of D*'s launch announcements they say "the additional bandwidth will be used for x,y,z and for other services" That other services part is what scares me. D* has announced that mpeg4 is coming, that new equipment is coming, that more sats and services are coming but they have NOT announced increased PQ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would think that with all of the complaints and the lridiculous engths they have gone too to cover up their HDlite, and the changes to the website to counter accusations of false advertising, the disabling of backdoor resolution codes on the HDtivo and etc that a PQ announcement would be at the top of the list for things to announce. Its blatant absence is almost proof that it wont happen IMO. Hopefully I am wrong but the majority of the evidence thus far is pointing to continued HDlite. Of course some will say, what do you think they are going to do with all of that bandwidth??? Are you crazy?? My answer is "other services" i.e, video on demand, internet and anything else they feel they may need to compete with cable. PQ is the last thing on D*'s mind and dont for one moment think that capacity for 1500 channels means that D* intends to add even one more channel. D* will add what they feel like adding and use that capacity for what they feel helps them compete against cable whatever that may be. The phrase "capacity for .........." is merely a way to measure the capacity and that is all it is.

If they can't do anything to fix it without pissing off some customers what do you think they should do. If they could fix the problems I would say something very different. As a company they might know the problems exist but again if they can't fix them why tell every customer that their signal is crappy but we will fix it in two years. DirecTV got themselves into this problem and they have no single way to avoid ticking off customers. If they say nothing they get bashed. If they say its a problem and it will be fixed they will also get bashed. Its best for them to deny it even exists than to open up that next can of worms.

I've been told by several people that everything will get back upto par in picture quality in 2007-2008. Also you won't read a press release stating this for one simple small reason. They can't promise a date until they can actually fix it. They still need two satellites to go up in space and be working correctly before they can make a date or promise. Also factor in the fact that Murdock's policy is don't tell anyone anything.

Just keep in mind that a company can have plans for anything even if they don't tell you and even if it doesn't follow past history as history and hardware changes over periods of time. DirecTV needed todo certian things to compete and with the current hardware available something had to give. Now they have hardware that can do everything they would want todo and improve on so history wouldn't repeat itself now would it. All companies must do as much as they can with what they have and pick the best tradeoff. Extra programming and local channels had more upside to them than keeping good picture quality.

 

[LonghornXP]

Next year as in 2006 or 2007????

2007-2008.

 

[LonghornXP]

longhorn,
a few more things, the NFL blackout rule for local airing is as follows, if a game doesnt sell ouy 72 hours in advance of kick-off , the game will not be shown in the local market. this goes for the local flagship station, the teams tv network, directv and the almighty ....it is an NFL rule. it is not made to punish tv viewers, it is to protect the owners and fill up stadiums. (glad i live in steeler country)
the other thing is, i do believe (i may be wrong) the sunday ticket is branded as "HD when available", i dont see how directv or cbs or fox can be sued for not showing ANYTHING in hd or even DIGITAL until 2009 unless they say ALL games will be in HD. they have not done that.
lastly, directv WAS bid against by DISH (who was the first to drop) and the cablecos led by COMCAST, who chose not to match DIRECTVs last offer. murdock isnt a fool, he knew how much was too much and i dont believe he went over that price....do you?

You aren't talking about the same topic as I am. Right now we have blackout rules for a stadium not being sold out which results in that game being blacked out on the markets that the home team play in.

The blackout rules I'm talking about have nothing todo with stadium sellouts and these blackouts are enforced by CBS and Fox on DirecTV. Don't remind me that Fox is part of the same company as DirecTV because it doesn't make much of a difference in these cases. This blackout rule is different and only applies to NFL Sunday Ticket customers.

Right now if you order NFL Sunday Ticket you are forced to watch the games broadcast on your local OTA station and the Sunday Ticket channel is blacked out.

So lets say in my specific market my local Fox station WTVT shows my local Buccaneers games. We as we knew last week the Buccaneers game was shown in HDTV in DirecTVs NFL Sunday Ticket SuperFan package on channel 723. It was also shown on DirecTV channel 712. Now because of the current blackout rules in place with Fox and DirecTV both channels 712 and 723 will be blacked out forcing me to watch the game OTA on channel 13. Now this isn't much of an issue in my market if you have good OTA HD recpetion or if you have the right dish and hardware to pick up the MPEG4 HD feed of WTVT.

Where this will be a problem for people is if they are in a market that doesn't have HD locals from DirecTV and they can't pick up their local Fox HD feed OTA. So if their game is broadcast in HDTV on DirecTVs NFL Sunday Ticket package those channels would be blacked out which again means he must watch the game in both SD and/or HD on his local channels. In this case his market might have SD locals from DirecTV but if they don't have HD local channels and you can't get the HD feed OTA you will not get that game in HDTV even though its available. Also what about those customers in those markets that have their local Fox station that doesn't even broadcast in HDTV at all.

I hope now you see what the real issue is that I'm talking about.

As of now the new CBS and Fox NFL contracts that will come into play next season will require both Fox and CBS to broadcast all their NFL games in HDTV. DirecTVs contract with the NFL requires DirecTV to carry all the games in both SDTV and HDTV formats as well. These are in the contracts okay. Also the CBS and Fox NFL contracts forbid them from making DirecTV blackout any games for any reason unless that games stadium isn't sold out and only the home teams market can be blacked out but that is an NFL rule and not a CBS and Fox contract request rule that soon won't be valid anymore.

Also once all markets have MPEG4 HD local feeds available to them DirecTV will send out the home teams local MPEG4 HD feed on the national NFL Sunday Ticket channel. This means in simple terms that customers within the Tampa Bay Area and the other teams area that the Bucs play at the Bucs home will be able to watch the game on the Sunday Ticket channel instead of their local HD MPEG4 station but they would still be watching the exact same feed with all the same ads as if they watched it OTA or on a cable company for example. This fixes that issue and will allow easy channel surfing for those Sunday Ticket customers.

 

[rad]

OK, DirecTV 8, according to the press release, has some KA capacity onboard. According to DBSTalk, D* has 32 KA licenses at 101 where D8 is at. Now while the press release says that the KA load on D8 is for internal D* use any chance that any of that KA capacity could be used until D10 and D11 go up for some new national HD channels???

 

[markd]

LonghornXP, again thanks for reporting what you hear. I appreciate it.

This is not directed at you LonghornXP..
..
If I understand correctly, LonghornXP source is now telling him 2007-2008 before we get decent PQ back. Not counting HD-LIL. I'm starting to feel the same as Vurbano. It's starting to seem like D* is stringing us, LonghornXP and maybe his source along.

For the record if D* is reading. I, personally, prefer after the NFL season, instead of new HD channels, INCREASE THE PICTURE QUALITY of what you have FIRST!

Now back to my worries. It was in Sept '04, wasn't it, when D* dropped the PQ of the HD channels. We soon heard, that D* had plans to correct this. And we were (at least I was) led to believe this would be corrected in 2005. So I've been waiting. Grant it. The delay of Spaceway 2 didn't help. Again we were led to believe when Spaceway 2 gets up, there would be improved PQ and more national channels. I understood this. I'll have to wait a little longer. We were led to believe 2006 will be the year for increased PQ and more channels. Now LonghornXP is hearing 2007-2008 before we get decent PQ back. Because of technical problems with doing the big spot beams we'll have to wait until the other two sats go up. And then will have our cake and eat it too.

I've been patiently waiting because I thought good things were coming. With this last info of 2007-2008 my patients are gone. So, I have set a deadline for myself. I'm still giving D* some time but not 2007-2008. When D* starts rolling out HD-LIL here, which will probably be this summer, I will be making a decision then to stay with D* or jump ship to E*. By then we'll know E* plans. Depending on who offers the BEST PQ at that time will probably be getting my business. Cable is out of the picture unless they improve their HD-DVR and PQ of their analog channels by then. Bellsouth doesn't seem to be interested in providing video. So that leaves my two choices D* & E*.

Sorry to go on so long. But this latest info is very disappointing.

 

[dragon002]

You aren't talking about the same topic as I am. Right now we have blackout rules for a stadium not being sold out which results in that game being blacked out on the markets that the home team play in.
The blackout rules I'm talking about have nothing todo with stadium sellouts and these blackouts are enforced by CBS and Fox on DirecTV. Don't remind me that Fox is part of the same company as DirecTV because it doesn't make much of a difference in these cases. This blackout rule is different and only applies to NFL Sunday Ticket customers.
Right now if you order NFL Sunday Ticket you are forced to watch the games broadcast on your local OTA station and the Sunday Ticket channel is blacked out.
So lets say in my specific market my local Fox station WTVT shows my local Buccaneers games. We as we knew last week the Buccaneers game was shown in HDTV in DirecTVs NFL Sunday Ticket SuperFan package on channel 723. It was also shown on DirecTV channel 712. Now because of the current blackout rules in place with Fox and DirecTV both channels 712 and 723 will be blacked out forcing me to watch the game OTA on channel 13. Now this isn't much of an issue in my market if you have good OTA HD recpetion or if you have the right dish and hardware to pick up the MPEG4 HD feed of WTVT.
Where this will be a problem for people is if they are in a market that doesn't have HD locals from DirecTV and they can't pick up their local Fox HD feed OTA. So if their game is broadcast in HDTV on DirecTVs NFL Sunday Ticket package those channels would be blacked out which again means he must watch the game in both SD and/or HD on his local channels. In this case his market might have SD locals from DirecTV but if they don't have HD local channels and you can't get the HD feed OTA you will not get that game in HDTV even though its available. Also what about those customers in those markets that have their local Fox station that doesn't even broadcast in HDTV at all.
I hope now you see what the real issue is that I'm talking about.
As of now the new CBS and Fox NFL contracts that will come into play next season will require both Fox and CBS to broadcast all their NFL games in HDTV. DirecTVs contract with the NFL requires DirecTV to carry all the games in both SDTV and HDTV formats as well. These are in the contracts okay. Also the CBS and Fox NFL contracts forbid them from making DirecTV blackout any games for any reason unless that games stadium isn't sold out and only the home teams market can be blacked out but that is an NFL rule and not a CBS and Fox contract request rule that soon won't be valid anymore.
Also once all markets have MPEG4 HD local feeds available to them DirecTV will send out the home teams local MPEG4 HD feed on the national NFL Sunday Ticket channel. This means in simple terms that customers within the Tampa Bay Area and the other teams area that the Bucs play at the Bucs home will be able to watch the game on the Sunday Ticket channel instead of their local HD MPEG4 station but they would still be watching the exact same feed with all the same ads as if they watched it OTA or on a cable company for example. This fixes that issue and will allow easy channel surfing for those Sunday Ticket customers.

longhorn,

i really dont want to argue, but you are missing some points, first , who owns the rights to broadcast the tampa games?.
second, was it a sell out? doubt that, sorry
third there are a lot of double rules in place on these broadcast rights, the final authority is the NFL! PERIOD., IF directv was violating the contract the NFL would strip it immediatly!!!

i do not care who you subscribe to....the NFL makes the final say at contract time who shows what when and to who.

sounds like whos on first

END OF STORY

 

[GeorgeLV]

OK, DirecTV 8, according to the press release, has some KA capacity onboard. According to DBSTalk, D* has 32 KA licenses at 101 where D8 is at. Now while the press release says that the KA load on D8 is for internal D* use any chance that any of that KA capacity could be used until D10 and D11 go up for some new national HD channels???

I don't think the LNB on the AT9 is capable of receiving Ka from the 101 slot. Even if it is, it doesn't fit into the stacking plan so the current multiswitch wouldn't support it.

 

[Jamey K]

.
I plan to mainly sit our any further conversations, and watch for USEFUL information from people like "Robert". I hope some day you get over your negative treatment of others. Good luck to you in the future anyway.

Hmmm......Robert who?

 

[rad]

I don't think the LNB on the AT9 is capable of receiving Ka from the 101 slot. Even if it is, it doesn't fit into the stacking plan so the current multiswitch wouldn't support it.

So what's the plan going to be for the 32 KA licenses that they hold at 101???

 

[LonghornXP]

longhorn,
i really dont want to argue, but you are missing some points, first , who owns the rights to broadcast the tampa games?.
second, was it a sell out? doubt that, sorry
third there are a lot of double rules in place on these broadcast rights, the final authority is the NFL! PERIOD., IF directv was violating the contract the NFL would strip it immediatly!!!
i do not care who you subscribe to....the NFL makes the final say at contract time who shows what when and to who.
sounds like whos on first
END OF STORY

You just aren't grasping how many problems and parties are involved in this mess. I don't blame you because its quite hard to explain in detail enough for others to understand the issues involved. Next week if you have Sunday Ticket see what game is being shown on your local Fox and CBS station and look for the game that isn't your local team. When that game is on try and tune the game in in the 700s and see it for yourself. Next year if you also get Sunday Ticket do the same exact same thing and you will see that I'm right on this. I may be wrong on some things and I admit that but I'm 100% right on this and in no way will I ever be wrong on this. When you do the above look for that message that says this event or program has been blacked out in your area.

This also has everything todo with CBS, Fox and DirecTV and not the NFL. CBS and Fox wanted DirecTV to blackout the games shown on every customers local channels in the 700s range. So say if my hometown has the Bucs as I've said above and say that game is on at 1pm on Fox. Now say that CBS and Fox have the 4pm game. With the rules today all three of those games will be blacked out in the 700s thus forcing me to watch them on "my" local Fox and CBS stations.

CBS and Fox had the excuse that they were losing advertising money because customers weren't watching them on their local stations. This was settled behind the scenes and the ruling was that the local stations are being compensated by every NFL Sunday Ticket customer and because of this that customer should have the right to watch the game on the Sunday Ticket channels.

This was all done behind the scenes out of the public eye and because of how many complaints DirecTV had to deal with and the fact that they were going to offer HD local channels they as in Fox decided its best if Fox worked in their next upcoming contract that they couldn't force DirecTV to blackout the games. This was all an internal deal if you will. That left CBS and DirecTV was convincing enough to get CBS to agree to this same deal. They also had to get this issue closed up because it was a chance for a class action lawsuit.

Just remember I may not have everything 100% accurate but its very close and also remember that I do know a few people high up in DirecTV and I hear things that would shock even you that I can't even say even if I wanted to.

I also won't argue with you either but if the above information doesn't fill the picture for you than nothing ever will at least I can't make it any clearer.

 

[GeorgeLV]

So what's the plan going to be for the 32 KA licenses that they hold at 101???

I'm guessing they will be used when 110/119 get demoted to flexport status.

 

[truckracer]

Real HD tv

Hello all, i ran across this thread and could not help but comment. I have extensive experience with the pizza dishes and our local cable companies. I could not tell you how many times that co-workers and friends have came to me and told me they bought an "HDTV" but it just does not look any better or it looks worse than their old tv with their current service even when they subscribed to the still "really confusing for most people" hdtv service.

This new and emerging technology is full of people selling snakeoil tv programming. All these different native pic standards that the average laymen do do not understand and in turn end up often disappointed with their picture quality.

I know it is not possible for everyone to have c-band. Rented property, obstructions, learning how to use 4dtv.

All i can say if you want "REAL HDTV" that really really looks good, crisp, and vibrant, Get a C-Band dish with a motorola dsr-922 and HDD-200 decoder.

Yes it's expensive, it only serves one tv, you have to learn how to use it, but it produces real quality.